|
Post by divinity on Aug 18, 2009 16:39:00 GMT -5
Yes Lightmystic, Thinking oneself into enlightenment would be much easier... but then, don't we, in a way, do just that when our thoughts focus on enlightenment and, as you say, life brings what you need to you to create that which you focus upon?
So far I really like this site. I have been looking for a community I could relate to for a long time.
|
|
|
Post by lightmystic on Aug 18, 2009 16:55:47 GMT -5
Hehe, I suppose indirectly you could say that we do. Glad to hear that you like the forum. It's nice to have you here. Yes Lightmystic, Thinking oneself into enlightenment would be much easier... but then, don't we, in a way, do just that when our thoughts focus on enlightenment and, as you say, life brings what you need to you to create that which you focus upon? So far I really like this site. I have been looking for a community I could relate to for a long time.
|
|
|
Post by divinity on Aug 22, 2009 16:43:35 GMT -5
Vacant... I do what you could call spiritual advising and the more I talk with people, the more I can see they are enlightened by what they say and how they feel in their gut. I help them trust it all. People find me safe to confide in and seem to feel much better after our sessions. It seems to me that we are born enlightened and society does it's best to unenlighten us. I have memories from when I was very young (under one year according to my descriptions of places and situations to my parents) and clearly remember things I used to think. I was lucky to have parents who didn't fear and try to put my fire out. I can distinctly remember often looking at trees and thinking that I could see them more clearly before I learned words to describe them such as "wood", "green", '"leaves" etc as if the naming limited the nature of the trees. I am so enjoying these discussions and sharing.
|
|
|
Post by vacant on Aug 23, 2009 11:28:37 GMT -5
Yes Divinity, good to hear how clearly you see things. I hear you and again agree with you. For now, I'm working on finding whatever resistances arise in here —hopefully AS they arise— against letting this enlighten-ness come through unspoiled, and just witnessing them (whatever resistances), so they can die of natural causes I still carry a substancial weight of unnessessary baggage you see... but not for long I'd say! I'm in a good mind to leaving them behind. I too very much enjoy the discussions and the sharing.
|
|
|
Post by lightmystic on Aug 23, 2009 11:45:25 GMT -5
Hey divinity, What would you say Enlightenment is? Because perhaps we are talking about different things here... I actually at some point remembered my birth. I did NOT like being here. There was definitely no being born Enlightened in my case. I was sure I was a small, helpless individual and I didn't like. I did not know that I was not separate from divinity. Anyway, what is your definition of Enlightenment? Vacant... I do what you could call spiritual advising and the more I talk with people, the more I can see they are enlightened by what they say and how they feel in their gut. I help them trust it all. People find me safe to confide in and seem to feel much better after our sessions. It seems to me that we are born enlightened and society does it's best to unenlighten us. I have memories from when I was very young (under one year according to my descriptions of places and situations to my parents) and clearly remember things I used to think. I was lucky to have parents who didn't fear and try to put my fire out. I can distinctly remember often looking at trees and thinking that I could see them more clearly before I learned words to describe them such as "wood", "green", '"leaves" etc as if the naming limited the nature of the trees. I am so enjoying these discussions and sharing.
|
|
|
Post by souley on Aug 23, 2009 14:06:03 GMT -5
I actually at some point remembered my birth. I did NOT like being here. There was definitely no being born Enlightened in my case. I was sure I was a small, helpless individual and I didn't like. Did you have all these concepts at birth? Or how would that work, feeling small without knowing what you are? I think a lot of limitation occurs as we start to learn that we are the guy in the mirror.. and as we learn to identify with the body. Or would you disagree with that?
|
|
|
Post by divinity on Aug 23, 2009 14:56:16 GMT -5
Vacant, I have found that it is easier to adopt new perception than to change the old one. We all have baggage... and we can all just leave it on the plane when we land. To keep sorting though it all can hold it in place. Lightmystic... I guess my definition of enlightenment would be a state of total awareness, which, in my opinion and experience, we can only be in ALL the time when the energy which is us has left the physical shell. In the meantime, little bits of total awareness are really fun to say the least. I have had an experience when the thing I call "me" has filled a large space I am in. I always think at those times how wonderful it will feel when what I refer to as "me" fills the Universe! You are right that we could be talking about two different things as is usually the case with human communication what with all our individual perceptions... Like the blind men describing the elephant. LOL Thanks you for this conversation!
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Aug 23, 2009 17:39:10 GMT -5
Divinity: You wrote, "I always think at those times how wonderful it will feel when what I refer to as "me" fills the universe." This is a wonderful thought, but notice that it is a thought, and then notice that the thought is about the future (how wonderful it WILL feel). The truth, however, is always present, whether or not it is realized. In fact, how you feel right now is how it feels to be one-with the entire universe!
The problem we all face on this path is that we have peak experiences and then we imagine or hope that those transient peak experiences will lead to something permanent in the future. It often takes a while to realize that there is only Oneness having both peak experiences as well as mundane experiences. At some point a realization occurs that there has never been a separate "me." We realize that who we are is the unified field of all being in which all experiences occur.
Just for fun, sit very still for a few minutes, and check to see if awareness at this moment is any different than awareness of some past event. Has awareness aged in any way? Is awareness a thing? Does awareness need anything? Is there any time or space as far as awareness is concerned?
Jesus reportedly said, "Before Abraham was, I am." The same is true of us all. The one who writes this note is the same one who reads this note. Divinity and Zendancer are the same One playing a game with Itself. Cheers.
|
|
|
Post by divinity on Aug 23, 2009 20:15:18 GMT -5
Hey aptly named zen... I appreciate your suggestions. I don't feel that I am on a path leading to something... I know from personal experience that when the physical body is deprived of the life energy which "I" am, I will no longer identify with the physical form and feel the oneness of the Universe, which the human brain, senses of the body etc etc create an illusion of separation from oneness. Absolutely Divinity and Zendancer are the One playing a game with itself. Thanks for dancing!
|
|
|
Post by divinity on Sept 2, 2009 17:40:08 GMT -5
Souley... I totally agree that the first time someone hold a mirror in front of us and tells us that is who we are is the beginning of the end of non-physical awareness. Over identification with our physical mechanisms is a big problem here in this dimension. It causes no end of "us" versus "them" mentalities and crazy dogmas... It's like thinking I AM my car. LOL
|
|
|
Post by shane on Sept 3, 2009 2:02:07 GMT -5
THERE IS NO ONE TO WAKE UP. DO NOT WASTE YOUR TIME FOLLOWING ANOTHER SYSTEM/TEACHING ETC. WHATEVER ALLOWS YOU TO BE CONSCIOUS IS YOUR TEACHER-GO WITHIN AND ALLOW THE ONENESS TO GUIDE YOU. LASTLY YOU MIGHT WANT TO QUESTION IF HUMANS ARE ANY MORE MEANINGFUL THAN A FLY. YOUR THOUGHTS WILL NOT HELP YOU, THEN AGAIN THERE'S NO HELP REALLY NEEDED IS THERE?
|
|
|
Post by lightmystic on Sept 3, 2009 10:07:04 GMT -5
Yes, there was a visceral, gut level belief (not an intellectual belief) that I was a limited individual in the womb , just as there was a visceral, gut level release into knowingness. There was plenty of openness experience that I had when I was young that went away as I got older and blocked myself as well, like you're describing, and it was interesting when those experiences came back to stay. It was like they were too overwhelming to be integrated when I was that young, even though the openness was there. Now there is that ability for integration in addition to that openness. That integration is important, or else the understanding cannot stay. So the whole born Enlightened idea doesn't actually work in practice, even if the mind is more open, because those experiences cannot be processed through at those young ages. I actually at some point remembered my birth. I did NOT like being here. There was definitely no being born Enlightened in my case. I was sure I was a small, helpless individual and I didn't like. Did you have all these concepts at birth? Or how would that work, feeling small without knowing what you are? I think a lot of limitation occurs as we start to learn that we are the guy in the mirror.. and as we learn to identify with the body. Or would you disagree with that?
|
|
|
Post by lightmystic on Sept 3, 2009 10:08:23 GMT -5
What are you talking about? What's your experience? THERE IS NO ONE TO WAKE UP. DO NOT WASTE YOUR TIME FOLLOWING ANOTHER SYSTEM/TEACHING ETC. WHATEVER ALLOWS YOU TO BE CONSCIOUS IS YOUR TEACHER-GO WITHIN AND ALLOW THE ONENESS TO GUIDE YOU. LASTLY YOU MIGHT WANT TO QUESTION IF HUMANS ARE ANY MORE MEANINGFUL THAN A FLY. YOUR THOUGHTS WILL NOT HELP YOU, THEN AGAIN THERE'S NO HELP REALLY NEEDED IS THERE?
|
|
|
Post by souley on Sept 3, 2009 11:56:54 GMT -5
Interesting:) Not my experience, but I have no such early memories. I too feel that we are not born enlightened, because I have some idea that enlightenment needs some kind of knowing for there to be the aware not-knowing:) Putting it simply just because I think people know what I'm pointing at.. I love how my increased connectedness feels so familiar from childhood. I had a nice experience when I was standing in front of the mirror, (this is a most powerful tool - who is that out there, when I am clearly here?) - and I had a flashback where I had the exact same feelings about it at the age of maybe 5-6. Yes, there was a visceral, gut level belief (not an intellectual belief) that I was a limited individual in the womb , just as there was a visceral, gut level release into knowingness. There was plenty of openness experience that I had when I was young that went away as I got older and blocked myself as well, like you're describing, and it was interesting when those experiences came back to stay. It was like they were too overwhelming to be integrated when I was that young, even though the openness was there. Now there is that ability for integration in addition to that openness. That integration is important, or else the understanding cannot stay. So the whole born Enlightened idea doesn't actually work in practice, even if the mind is more open, because those experiences cannot be processed through at those young ages.
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Sept 3, 2009 13:26:12 GMT -5
LM: Like Souley, I am surprised that you have any memories from such an early stage in your life. My 94 year old mother (who has a fantastic memory) claims that her earliest vivid memory comes from the age of four, and my wife claims to have a vivid memory from the age of six. When I try to recall my earliest memories, they are quite vague prior to the age of five or six, and I am not sure that anything I remember prior to the age of six isn't a reconstruction created by later memories, snapshot mental images, and often-seen photos in family albums. Over the last few years, I have been surprised to find that memories are not very trustworthy, and they evolve over time. Recently I travelled to a place I thought I remembered vividly from fifty years ago. Before I went there, I had a complete set of pictures in my mind that I thought corresponded with what I encountered there during my teenage years. However, when I got there, only one or two mental pictures were anything similar to the reality. The road, the driveway, the hillside, the entrance to the place, and twenty other features were nothing remotely like my memories. This has happened to me several times, and it corroborates recent scientific investigations into the nature of memory (prompted by the famous California child abuse cases). I'm not saying that you don;t have some early memories, but if they go back as far as you claim, then that is most unusual.
Shane: Is what you wrote a teaching? Should anyone follow it? Do you think that humans are no more meaningful than a fly? What you wrote reminds me of a Korean Zen koan, called "The Cigarette Man." It goes like this: A guy walks into a Buddhist temple smoking a cigarette. He has had a big enlightenment experience and he has realized that all is One. In this Oneness there is no holy or unholy; evenything is the same. He therefore flicks cigarette ashes on the statue of the Buddha because the Buddha is no different than the ground outside the temple. This man has understood One, but he hasn't yet understood what lies beyond One. You are a Zen student and your job is to teach people. How can you teach the cigarette man that one more step is necessary--that holy is holy and unholy is unholy? This man is at 180 degrees on the Zen circle; how do you show him where 360 degrees lies? If you open your mouth to say anything to him, he will hit you. He is very strong--much stronger than you are. How can you teach the cigarette man?
This koan is about how to effectively respond to people who are very strongly attached to their ideas.
What you wrote is interesting, and it might be a good teaching for people who are attached to a teacher or a teaching, but how about supplying a little more background? Like LM, I'm interested in hearing about your experiences. Cheers.
|
|