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Post by lightmystic on Sept 3, 2009 13:59:39 GMT -5
Hey Zendancer,
I actually have little to no memory of anything past age 4 or so. There are some occasional hazy images and such, and so that's that. For the most part, I remember what I was feeling more than the particular circumstances. And if I tried to remember the particular circumstances, I'd probably be wrong.
What often reminds me of some of these past feelings is when they are revisited. There is a clear memory of my physical body and what I was feeling as those feelings are revisited. Again, I don't remember the outside circumstances well, if at all. There is still one very clear feeling that certain things remind me of, but I can't remember what those feelings were referring to back then. It's been a question that's come up periodically for most of my life.
There was a very big frustration when I came into the womb. It was actually the revisiting of that frustration that lead to the clear memory returning. I had not had it before then. Mostly it was the internal state that was remembered (which is probably the vast majority of experience in a womb anyway), although there is more clarity about that outside experience than there was in other memories of childhood. That one stands out when there is nothing else that does, and it only came when I came face to face with that issue surrounding my distress and misinterpretation at that time.
So it's not quite so unusual as it sounds. Although any memory of being in the womb and vague memories of birth at all are a little usual I suppose.
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Post by alphas shadow on Sept 3, 2009 18:12:57 GMT -5
tell the board your true state before your conception of who you think you are. or did you have something else in mind? :~) maybe stan grof could help here? www.onelook.com/?w=conception&ls=awater flows down rests in low quiet places sitting there where crickets chirp within
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Post by Peter on Sept 4, 2009 3:20:44 GMT -5
You are a Zen student and your job is to teach people. How can you teach the cigarette man that one more step is necessary--that holy is holy and unholy is unholy? Interesting koan, it appeals to my problem solver nature. Assuming that there is actually a problem that 'needs' to be solved... Is holy, holy? If so, why? I suppose that's all about what other people think. A church is holy because society considers it so. The only reason I can think of not to put ash on a statue is because it would offend other people and cause work for someone else. I don't see any intrinsic holy-ness to it that would demand respect. Nope, I'm just not there with this one. I'd say that people have to want to learn before they can be taught (not that I'm clear what is to be taught in this case) and to try to teach someone without their invitation is a negation of their free will. I'd smile and nod to the guy, wait until he's left and then clean up the ash. I'll leave that one rolling about though, see if I come back to it...
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Post by alphas shadow on Sept 4, 2009 3:57:21 GMT -5
you may not under-stand now
but you will, since you willed
once you for-give your self
all will be for-given
it gives and gives
but what accepts grace
?
to have empty hands
you will first let go
until then
emptiness feels forgotten
what's forgotten
begs for for-giveness
you don't understand now
but you willed
and have forgotten
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Post by lightmystic on Sept 4, 2009 9:48:54 GMT -5
I find that we are completely connected to all Creation, we are it, so there is nothing that cannot be known directly. Most of the time, it only comes up if it's relevant, but there is nothing that CANNOT be known. I personally, have memories of two past lives, which were remembered eventually because they are relevant to what I'm doing in this life. That said, it's not particularly related to self realization. But it IS interesting. LM,what is your take on remembering before conception, Can anyone know their past lifes,Nisargadatta Maharaj said, ones true state was prior to conception...
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Post by Peter on Sept 4, 2009 10:29:32 GMT -5
What you wrote reminds me of a Korean Zen koan, called "The Cigarette Man." It goes like this: A guy walks into a Buddhist temple smoking a cigarette. He has had a big enlightenment experience and he has realized that all is One. In this Oneness there is no holy or unholy; evenything is the same. He therefore flicks cigarette ashes on the statue of the Buddha because the Buddha is no different than the ground outside the temple. This man has understood One, but he hasn't yet understood what lies beyond One. You are a Zen student and your job is to teach people. How can you teach the cigarette man that one more step is necessary--that holy is holy and unholy is unholy? This man is at 180 degrees on the Zen circle; how do you show him where 360 degrees lies? If you open your mouth to say anything to him, he will hit you. He is very strong--much stronger than you are. How can you teach the cigarette man? This is making less and less sense the more I think about it. I tried not thinking about it, but didn't come up with anything sensible - saw a vision of blasting the guy with some sort of Dragon Ball punch followed by.... well, it didn't get any more practical after that. Firstly, how is the Zen student able to tell the difference between someone who's stuck in 'All is One' and someone who's being deliberately belligerent? Secondly, this guy has had a major awakening experience and yet he's going to take offence and hit our Zen student if he says anything?!? What's with that!? Thirdly, what's so bad about the threat of being hit? Not that I'm a huge fan of putting myself in harms way but saying "Excuse me sir, could you please leave your cigarette outside" would seem like a reasonable way of demonstrating bravery in the face of overwhelming superior force. From the vantage point of lying on the floor our Zen student could say "Did that hurt you as much as it hurt me?", answer "No", response "Is All One?"
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Post by zendancer on Sept 4, 2009 13:40:19 GMT -5
Peter: The cigarette man koan is not one of the standard koans. I only mentioned it because it deals with the issue of people who are strongly attached to a set of ideas. However, people who have had big experiences sometimes get VERY attached to new ideas resulting from their experiences. I could tell you some stories about this that are very funny. Sometimes people get attached to ideas that are downright nutty. A big experience does not guarantee clarity; think of them more like glimpses of the truth.
As far as the technical issues of this particular the koan, the koan tells you that the guy is attached to oneness. This is not something that you have to discern for yourself. The koan also says that it doesn't matter what you say; the guy is going to hit you if you so much as open your mouth. (Hint; there are many ways to teach that do not involve opening your mouth and saying something.) If you are interested in this koan, then you would probably enjoy the book that it comes from--Dropping Ashes on the Buddha, edited by Stephen Mitchell, (who is now the husband of Byron Katie). This was one of Mitchell's first books (I think he has about twenty books and translations on the market, maybe more) and it is a very good read and it presents a good introduction to Zen style dharma combat. I would recommend that you work on easier koans before tackling this one. Remember, you cannot solve a koan using logic. You have to see the answer instantly, before your thinking mind gets involved. Here are a few typical koans:
1. I hold up a bell and ask you, "What is this?" How would you answer in such a way that I would know you understand what it is? (Hint: I am not asking you how we might cognize what you see. I am asking you what the reality IS. "Is" is a verb.) 2. I hold up a rock and a stick of wood and ask you, "Are these the same or different?" If you say they are different, I will say that you are attached to form. If you say that they are the same, I'll say that you are attached to emptiness, or oneness. How can you answer so that I will know you understand the truth? 3. What was your original face before your mother and father were born? 4. How can you greet an enlightened woman with neither words nor silence? 5. The bases were loaded and the batter hit a home run, yet not a man scored? Why? 6. A man was going to his high school reunion. He owned three cars, a VW, a Chevy, and a Cadillac. He was going to drive his Caddy, but then he thought that his classmates might think he was showing off. He therefore decided to drive his VW, but he realized that he would be acting like he was poor just to affect his classmates' opinions of him. The more he thought about it, the more paralyzed he became. Finally, he saw the solution and knew what to do. Which car did he drive to the reunion? (Hint: If you name one of his three cars, you don't understand how to answer this question correctly) 7. Some people think that Jesus was a pacifist because he said to turn the other cheek. Other people think he was an activist because of things he said and did. One day he walked into the temple and turned over the tables of the moneychangers. Was this the act of a pacifist or an activist?
Some of the above koans are formal and are part of the Rinzai Zen tradition. Some are informal and can be talked about in public. I threw in one Christian koan just for fun. All koans have very simple and very obvious answers, but you can't think your way to an answer.
Here's a teaching koan designed to show you how they work. A father and son were driving across town when they were involved in a horrible auto accident. The father died of his injuries. An ambulance came, picked up the boy, and rushed him to an emergency room. Several doctors rushed to treat him, but the neurosurgeon took one look at the patient and said, "I can't operate on this boy; this is my son." Who was the neurosurgeon?"
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Post by divinity on Sept 4, 2009 15:38:04 GMT -5
The boy's mom was the surgeon of course... or these days the boy's other daddy...
Go into each moment as if it was the first ever.
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Post by Peter on Sept 4, 2009 15:46:05 GMT -5
Thanks Zendancer. Did you have a take on the cigarette man situation? I'll look up the Stephen Mitchell book. A father and son were driving across town when they were involved in a horrible auto accident. The father died of his injuries. An ambulance came, picked up the boy, and rushed him to an emergency room. Several doctors rushed to treat him, but the neurosurgeon took one look at the patient and said, "I can't operate on this boy; this is my son." Who was the neurosurgeon?" The boy's mother! I think this one really points to society's ingrained sexism - even women fail to get this right. Although amusingly the chap that sits opposite me at work was given this as part of some mandatory "diversity training" just a couple of days ago and he said "Well, a gay couple has obviously adopted a son". He was so focussed on being open minded and not homophobic that he completely failed to avoid being sexist!
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Post by Peter on Sept 4, 2009 15:53:17 GMT -5
Snap!
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Post by divinity on Sept 4, 2009 15:58:14 GMT -5
I love koans. They stop racing thoughts and bring about calmness when the brain implodes! LOL
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Post by divinity on Sept 4, 2009 15:59:25 GMT -5
Mark... what is your picture here? It looks like a bent spoon.... ??
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Post by zendancer on Sept 5, 2009 11:57:22 GMT -5
Peter & Divinity: Yes, koans can be real eye openers. Some people enjoy working on them and some don't. Three of the above koans are easy and can be solved quickly. The baseball koan is similar to the father/son koan. How to greet an enlightened woman? Bow, shake hands, hug, etc. The phrases "with neither words nor silence" and "enlightened woman" are the hooks that grab the logical mind and prevent the obvious from being seen.
Several years ago I did some koan experiments with different age groups. Children can often see through koans with ease. As people grow older, it becomes harder and harder to escape their cultural conditioning.
When my daughter was very young, she used to enjoy koans and I was often amazed at how clear her mind was. By the time she was a teen-ager she could no longer answer some of the same koans she answered easily as a child.
Zen teachers often use koans to test the level of a student's existential understanding. If I hold up a bell and ask, "What is this?" someone might respond, "It's a bell." I would then say, you are attached to form. Then they might say, "Okay, it's not a bell." I would say, "Now you are attached to emptiness. The student might then pause and say, "Okay, I don;t know what it is." I would say, "Wonderful! Now keep that not-knowing mind and contemplate the question for a while. This is your homework." "I don;t know" is actually a very good answer. The logical mind has stopped trying to figure things out, and the student has realized that something deeper is required. If the student later returned and I asked the same question again, she might slap the floor as an answer. This is even better than, "I don;t know." I would say, "Very good, but your answer is too wide; it is what we call a "like this" answer. I want you to bring me a "JUST like this answer," which is 100% specific and far simpler. If you answer with a "just like this" answer, I will know that you understand.
As I said, koans can be fun as long as one doesn't get too attached to them as a system. Unfortunately, I have met people who could answer hundreds of koans, but didn't have an open heart. I would recommend a good sense of humor and an open heart over any answer to a koan.
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Post by Peter on Sept 8, 2009 5:58:00 GMT -5
Mark... what is your picture here? It looks like a bent spoon.... ?? Who's Mark? Yes bent spoon indeed, the one that The Spoon Boy holds up in the first Matrix film. I was doing a bit of thinking about No Self and "There is no spoon" and realised that I Am The Spoon which does not exist, so that's the website where I put my writing. It's semi anonymous. I post on other forums as 'TheSpoon' but I eventually decided it was a little bit silly and joined here as my real name. Spoon boy: Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only try to realize the truth. Neo: What truth? Spoon boy: There is no spoon. Neo: There is no spoon? Spoon boy: Then you'll see, that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself. ZenDancer - can you provide any further analysis on the Cigarette Man koan? The answer I came up with for the greeting the Enlightened woman was 'with a kiss' because kisses aren't words and neither are they silent. At least, mine aren't. Cheers, P Edit: Just did an internet search for 'TheSpoon' and came up with many many posting that aren't mine, so beware, not all Spoons are The Spoon
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Post by zendancer on Sept 8, 2009 8:29:45 GMT -5
Peter: Yes, a kiss or a hug, are both ways to greet an enlightened woman (if you know her well--LOL). If you don't know her, then I would recommend a bow or a wave because some enlightened women are pretty fierce and I don't know if they'd like a kiss from a stranger!
I can't talk about the cigarette man because that's a formal koan. Some koans are informal teaching koans, such as the father/son koan, the baseball homerun koan, etc. and we can talk about those.
Some koans are enlightenment koans, such as the "mu" koan. The "Who am I?" koan also falls into that category. You can get a pretty good sense of how koans work and how they're used from the book I mentioned. I'll try to write a bit more about this approach to enlightenment later.
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