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Post by giannis on Jul 12, 2009 8:49:41 GMT -5
I don't know if search is preventing me but I want to say that all this is so confusing! I guess it's more about admitting "that" rather than having to understand it. I'll just keep thinking and feeling as questions come to me, keep doing some meditation I read online and whatever happens happens. Too tough to understand "headlessness".
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Post by Peter on Jul 13, 2009 8:54:58 GMT -5
I don't know if search is preventing me but I want to say that all this is so confusing! Too tough to understand "headlessness". No need to go sticking your head in the sand there Giannis. If you want to ask specific questions rather than just lumping "all this" in one pot, then I'm sure you'd get some useful responses, and it would probably help the responder(s) get some ideas clear in their own heads! Cheers, Peter
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Post by lightmystic on Jul 13, 2009 10:19:11 GMT -5
Headlessness is not something to be understood intellectually, except as a jumping off point. Really headllessness is a way of talking about an experience that you can find in yourself.... It's so close to you, that it's missed, but it's the recognition of it that makes it able to express itself in you.... I don't know if search is preventing me but I want to say that all this is so confusing! I guess it's more about admitting "that" rather than having to understand it. I'll just keep thinking and feeling as questions come to me, keep doing some meditation I read online and whatever happens happens. Too tough to understand "headlessness".
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Post by vacant on Aug 6, 2009 3:49:19 GMT -5
Awakening, enlightenment, divinity (etc.. ) is not for me to experience. Some clarity woke me up in the middle of the night that I want that experience in the same way I want to "have" a whole bunch of other things –desire– and similarly I worry to miss out on it in the same way that I worry of being left behind, or of not being sufficiently provided for by life, being incomplete –fear–. Them 2 usual culprits. It just cannot happen to me, I might as well drop that wishful thinking right now. If it happens at all, it's not to me, it's to Itself, and I cannot "have" that. I get the feeling that in that is the very beauty of it, free from my soiling grasp. ...it could seem a gloomy thought, in fact it's got a somewhat liberating character(!?)
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Post by lightmystic on Aug 7, 2009 11:41:57 GMT -5
Aww, it sounds like you're being kind of hard on yourself. You pointed to something very useful though, I think. It's not more, not something additional, but less. It's the freedom of letting go of all the needs to grasp that have been habitually ingrained all our lives (perhaps lifetimes). When we don't need to grasp, then we can let the infinite in. These are old habits that start to drop away over time. I would never say you cannot have it. You are in the process of letting go so that the need to grasp can be released more and more. When enough of that has been done, then the reality starts to be self evident. How could you NOT have It? You ARE it! It's simply a gentle process of recognizing that. Sure, it's much easier said than done (to put it mildly), as resistances and fears and such can be quite uncomfortable and intense, but it seems you are already in the process. It might find you whether you are ready for it or not. But it might require you allowing the possibility. Even if it just feels like a remote possibility right now. Does that make sense? Awakening, enlightenment, divinity (etc.. ) is not for me to experience. Some clarity woke me up in the middle of the night that I want that experience in the same way I want to "have" a whole bunch of other things –desire– and similarly I worry to miss out on it in the same way that I worry of being left behind, or of not being sufficiently provided for by life, being incomplete –fear–. Them 2 usual culprits. It just cannot happen to me, I might as well drop that wishful thinking right now. If it happens at all, it's not to me, it's to Itself, and I cannot "have" that. I get the feeling that in that is the very beauty of it, free from my soiling grasp. ...it could seem a gloomy thought, in fact it's got a somewhat liberating character(!?)
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fear
Full Member
Posts: 128
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Post by fear on Aug 7, 2009 12:07:28 GMT -5
Vacant,
the discouragement you feel is great progress, you are sinking into neutrality where a lot of things that used to matter don't matter as much.
You can't expect the dying of the ego to be a pleasant process. I've read and experienced that awakening is not for the faint hearted.
Gangaji says, "you have to sit so that you can rest and when the tidal wave comes you have to stand."
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Post by vacant on Aug 7, 2009 15:23:35 GMT -5
Lightmystic & Fear, ooops, miscommunication here. First though: you guys are great to give this kind brotherly support when you detect I'm down and discouraged. It certainly puts a grin on my heart.
BUT.... I think you might not have properly understood what I was trying to put across –my lack of expertise with English language, no doubt, plus not having left enough digesting time before posting.
So I'll say it in a different way: the clarity that woke me up around 4 am a few nights ago now, I am still under its spell. I was in this kind of region between awake and asleep, you know, and what brought me there was the vision of how my small self –say Vacant– approaches spiritual search (wanting to achieve awakening! fearing failure) and seeing that this small self cannot "have" it, because the aim is OUT of his realm. In that moment the seeing and consciousness was firmly distant from Vacant. Desire, fear, the longing and the concept about longing, belonged to him, but I was observing from another place. It lasted a good while and I was understanding more the mechanics of why the searching gets in the way of the finding, hence placing the post in this thread.
Saying that the experience is not for me, I meant it's not for the small self where my usual dwelling is. When I posted I could see that I was not expressing right, so I did the addendum . The despair that you guys caught on was real because I kind of felt: what can I do, it's out of my hands. There really is not much I can do to help progress. Still, there is some liberation from that night, and a sentiment that it's all good! Specially the fact that I really like the place where I was seeing from.
So I think I'll print your responses and keep them for when I'm really in a hard way.... it DOES happen. Thank you both.
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Post by lightmystic on Aug 8, 2009 12:29:44 GMT -5
Ah! I see. Very wonderful what you're going through. Thank you for sharing it with us! For what it's worth, I relate to your concern, but I found that it's actually the recognition that there's nothing you need to do on an individual level that will not be presented to you by Life that IS the process of making it go faster. At that level, the process of relaxing into it IS the process of going increasingly faster! This is because the more openness there is, the more can handled at once. And the growth is exponential - perhaps you've found that at this point in your own experience. The more you can get out of your own way, the faster the process will go. And, though there always seems to be more stuff in there in the way that you would ever be able to guess, it also tends to go much faster than you would ever expect, and so it ends up fairly balancing out. Lightmystic & Fear, ooops, miscommunication here. First though: you guys are great to give this kind brotherly support when you detect I'm down and discouraged. It certainly puts a grin on my heart. BUT.... I think you might not have properly understood what I was trying to put across –my lack of expertise with English language, no doubt, plus not having left enough digesting time before posting. So I'll say it in a different way: the clarity that woke me up around 4 am a few nights ago now, I am still under its spell. I was in this kind of region between awake and asleep, you know, and what brought me there was the vision of how my small self –say Vacant– approaches spiritual search (wanting to achieve awakening! fearing failure) and seeing that this small self cannot "have" it, because the aim is OUT of his realm. In that moment the seeing and consciousness was firmly distant from Vacant. Desire, fear, the longing and the concept about longing, belonged to him, but I was observing from another place. It lasted a good while and I was understanding more the mechanics of why the searching gets in the way of the finding, hence placing the post in this thread. Saying that the experience is not for me, I meant it's not for the small self where my usual dwelling is. When I posted I could see that I was not expressing right, so I did the addendum . The despair that you guys caught on was real because I kind of felt: what can I do, it's out of my hands. There really is not much I can do to help progress. Still, there is some liberation from that night, and a sentiment that it's all good! Specially the fact that I really like the place where I was seeing from. So I think I'll print your responses and keep them for when I'm really in a hard way.... it DOES happen. Thank you both.
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Post by vacant on Aug 9, 2009 5:04:06 GMT -5
oooh.... now, that truly sounds so good! This is very much the direction where I've been feeling the pull these last few days, and it's really cool that you are precisely validating that. Although from where I'm at, I couldn't say that I recognize any "exponential acceleration" but let's see what Life presents...
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Post by lightmystic on Aug 10, 2009 10:14:59 GMT -5
Well, definitely let me know how it goes....
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Post by divinity on Aug 15, 2009 12:56:07 GMT -5
We are already "enlightened"... we have just forgotten. To go from one teacher to another endlessly, all we do is adopt other people's thoughts when our real teacher is within... the life force which is currently inhabiting the thing we call "us" is always available to us and for free!
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Post by vacant on Aug 15, 2009 15:20:07 GMT -5
Hi Divinity, I tend to agree with you: even though I do not as such adopt a "teacher" other than the inner One, I admit reading avidly here and there (and just about everywhere) to dig for little helpers' info at the risk of "adopting other people's thoughts". I think I understand on some level that we are already enlightened, and also that "the force is always available to us and for free". But I am all too conscious that what I have there is a conceptual understanding. While I could blindly hope that it helps some, that sort of understanding falls short of truly satisfying, because I don't know it for real from my obscured position. I kind of adopt this vision to adjust my aim, because there are so many unrelated witnesses throughout history who declare the same statements that it's pretty much unconceivable that it would be fortuitous, but I have an almost equally strong feeling that adjusting my aim is not even where it's at, and it could even cripple me there. Oh, welcome to this forum. Interesting that you skip the intro and get straight to the juicy stuff. Can you possibly clarify if the fact that we're already there is something you say out of conviction or from personal experience. In some way, until what you say is for me to know for real, it can only fall into the category of "other people's thought". Very welcome though. What's your view?
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Post by divinity on Aug 18, 2009 10:16:59 GMT -5
Giannis seems to be on the right track realizing that one cannot use the human mind to think oneself into enlightenment. The human mind is the biggest obstacle to enlightenment. Meditation, or any other way of going within to the teacher who is our higher self/universal soul/whatever you want to call it, is the most sensible way to me. One can become addicted to the search for enlightenment which makes the actual becoming enlightened really undesired, because you will have to stop searching when you get it and you have dedicated your whole life to the search. What does enlightened look like? What does it feel like? You know we always find what we are looking for... so when you find it, will it really be IT... or will it be something you just created with your search for enlightenment and what you thought it would be? But that's only my opinion.
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Post by lightmystic on Aug 18, 2009 10:28:45 GMT -5
Hey divinity, Yes, the mind can never contain what we are, as what we are is what contains the mind. A shame though! If I could have thought myself to Enlightenment, it would have been SO much easier! The rational mind definitely can be the biggest obstacle to Enlightenment, especially if one is a thinker, feeling safe in their mind. It's definitely true that people get stuck in "seeker mode" sometimes from going it alone. Conversely, people get stuck by clinging blindly to whatever concept they think their master has presented them with. They don't find it in their own experience and so they can get stuck that way too. They just want someone to be devoted it to without owning their own Divinity. And that's assuming the master is really helping them! I've heard plenty of stories of Masters that don't actually know what their talking about, or don't really know how to teach and express it. So, unfortunately, there's no "best way" as far as I can see. Everyone's path is their own. The only thing one can do is tell life what it wants, and then listen and be ready to let go of whatever life asks you to let go of when it comes. Life is always the best teacher in my opinion. If you need a teacher, Life will bring him/her, if you need to be alone, life will indicate that, etc.. We are not alone in this process. We all have the perfect facilitator. Giannis seems to be on the right track realizing that one cannot use the human mind to think oneself into enlightenment. The human mind is the biggest obstacle to enlightenment. Meditation, or any other way of going within to the teacher who is our higher self/universal soul/whatever you want to call it, is the most sensible way to me. One can become addicted to the search for enlightenment which makes the actual becoming enlightened really undesired, because you will have to stop searching when you get it and you have dedicated your whole life to the search. What does enlightened look like? What does it feel like? You know we always find what we are looking for... so when you find it, will it really be IT... or will it be something you just created with your search for enlightenment and what you thought it would be? But that's only my opinion.
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Post by souley on Aug 18, 2009 13:30:51 GMT -5
The only thing one can do is tell life what it wants, and then listen and be ready to let go of whatever life asks you to let go of when it comes. Life is always the best teacher in my opinion. If you need a teacher, Life will bring him/her, if you need to be alone, life will indicate that, etc.. We are not alone in this process. We all have the perfect facilitator. Ever since I started to really fall apart about 6 months ago, all I have wanted to do is just like, sit or lie and do nothing to get in control again, to figure things out. But that just never got to happen. These last 6 months has actually been more intense then usual, and I have all the time had this feeling like "damn you life, making me do all this stuff, but OK, you know best". So instead of shutting myself in I went out and did alot of social stuff, had alot of responsibility at work, etc, even though "I" did not want that at all. I am certain that all these experiences has forced out so many issues that I would otherwise comfortably have hidden away somewhere. It's nice, to go with the flow
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