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Post by karen on Mar 24, 2011 10:53:46 GMT -5
I once worried a lot about letting go and what would I do? What's to stop me from hurting someone? Stealing, or worse? I pondered this for over a year when an answer popped into my head out of the blue - "why would I steal or do worse?" That is what would stop me from not hurting other people - the fact that I have no interest in doing so. There literally is no upside. Yeah there is absolutely no interest here on doing anything hurtful. I can clearly see the dysfunction that causes people to do things like that. There is no upside, only pain. An answer like yours is easy for me to produce, but the fear somehow remains anyway. It's not rational, it just a ball of fear at the core, constantly battling for survival. It can probably take any thought form it would like, but it settles for this "bad guy" stuff because thats whats rubs me the most. Just keep pondering this (like you've been doing). You'll burn through any motivation for the fear. Then if you're like me, you'll move onto another fear...
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Post by souley on Mar 24, 2011 11:13:26 GMT -5
Have you considered the possibility that the fear of doing something horrible is an unconscious justification for holding onto the 'me' controller? It's a noble explanation, which makes it somewhat untouchable, and the idea that you can't figure it out is sliding the bolt in the door so that you're safe. Definitely, it's probably precisely that. I don't think I'm stuck to the idea that it's untouchable, I think I put it a bit wrong. The main reason for posting here is probably to explore the fear and see it for what it is, from all angles. Just keep pondering this (like you've been doing). You'll burn through any motivation for the fear. Then if you're like me, you'll move onto another fear... I think this is actually the last fear for me:) I mastered the moving to another fear these last two years hehehe. Somehow can't seem to move on from this one so it's face off time. Thanks Andy and everyone for your posts, it's really helpful!
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Post by therealfake on Mar 24, 2011 21:21:08 GMT -5
With all do respect, you haven't mastered fear at all, what you've mastered is the thought, that you've mastered fear...
The reason I know this is because once you understand fear, you understand the opportunity that any fear presents and this opportunity currently evades you.
Your not afraid of the actual fear, as much as you are afraid of fearing the fear.
If you can actualize the concept here, you'll never be bothered by psychological fear again...
Peace
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Post by michaelsees on Mar 24, 2011 21:31:50 GMT -5
With all do respect, you haven't mastered fear at all, what you've mastered is the thought, that you've mastered fear... The reason I know this is because once you understand fear, you understand the opportunity that any fear presents and this opportunity currently evades you. Your not afraid of the actual fear, as much as you are afraid of fearing the fear. If you can actualize the concept here, you'll never be bothered by psychological fear again... Peace TRF nailed this post imo fear always brings opportunity. Also as paraphrasing his words. The worst thing about a panic attack is not the attack but the fear you will have one so true. Great job Michael
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Post by enigma on Mar 24, 2011 22:27:12 GMT -5
"you are afraid of fearing the fear." actually makes no sense at all. Fear is uncomfy. We don't like it, okay? Possibly what you're reaching for is FDR's "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.
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Post by question on Mar 24, 2011 23:29:28 GMT -5
The funny thing is that this 'me structure' is a constriction made of fear, and this is the only possible impetus for there to be a rapist, murderer, pedophile. No me structure, no fear motivation, no bad person running willy-nilly through the world leaving a trail of destruction. Sounds weird. Are you saying that pedophiles molest children because they are afraid of something? What is it exactly that they are afraid of? I've always thought that a rapist's or pedophile's motivation was his desire. The only way I can imagine fear playing a decisive factor is when they identify so strongly with the desire that they fear the absence of fulfillment so much that it threatens their core identity in that they think that if they won't get fulfillment then they will 'die'.
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Post by therealfake on Mar 24, 2011 23:29:46 GMT -5
"you are afraid of fearing the fear." actually makes no sense at all. Fear is uncomfy. We don't like it, okay? Possibly what you're reaching for is FDR's "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself. If your always afraid of fear, of course it's uncomfortable. But some folks foster the idea that fear is bad. So they resist or become afraid of becoming afraid. I was lucky enough to experience overcoming fear at an early age and know that confronting fear directly, can transform perception. But it is that fear of confronting fear that must be seen through for what it is, a powerless thought... And that the only strength it has over you is the strength that you gave it and nothing more. A realization created the world of separateness, the effect being fear, pain and suffering and only direct seeing can vanquish that false thought once and for all. Amen... I don't know why I said Amen, maybe cus my post sounds preachy... LOL
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Post by karen on Mar 24, 2011 23:56:29 GMT -5
The funny thing is that this 'me structure' is a constriction made of fear, and this is the only possible impetus for there to be a rapist, murderer, pedophile. No me structure, no fear motivation, no bad person running willy-nilly through the world leaving a trail of destruction. Sounds weird. Are you saying that pedophiles molest children because they are afraid of something? What is it exactly that they are afraid of? I've always thought that a rapist's or pedophile's motivation was his desire. The only way I can imagine fear playing a decisive factor is when they identify so strongly with the desire that they fear the absence of fulfillment so much that it threatens their core identity in that they think that if they won't get fulfillment then they will 'die'. As far as I can tell, pedophiles are certainly afraid - afraid of peers, and they exploit the perceived power differential between themselves and their victims. This isn't conscious of course. Ever hear a pedophile rationalize - they are the epitome of peeps in denial.
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Post by enigma on Mar 25, 2011 0:34:54 GMT -5
The funny thing is that this 'me structure' is a constriction made of fear, and this is the only possible impetus for there to be a rapist, murderer, pedophile. No me structure, no fear motivation, no bad person running willy-nilly through the world leaving a trail of destruction. Sounds weird. Are you saying that pedophiles molest children because they are afraid of something? What is it exactly that they are afraid of? I've always thought that a rapist's or pedophile's motivation was his desire. The only way I can imagine fear playing a decisive factor is when they identify so strongly with the desire that they fear the absence of fulfillment so much that it threatens their core identity in that they think that if they won't get fulfillment then they will 'die'. Rape and pedophilia aren't really about the fulfillment of sexual desire at all. If that were the case, wouldn't it be easier and safer to find (or solicit) a willing partner? And what sort of a sexual urge is it exactly that expresses itself in the form of sex with children? Mostly it's about power and control, and often quite a bit of rage added in, but the dynamics can become very complex. At the root of it all is fear. The fear of not getting fulfillment, which you describe, can also play out. We can call the addiction of a drug addict a desire if we want to but this might obscure the desperation that may lead to criminal behavior, and this desperation is full of fear. If I'm not afraid of anything, why in the world would I knowingly do anything to hurt you?
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Post by enigma on Mar 25, 2011 0:42:19 GMT -5
"you are afraid of fearing the fear." actually makes no sense at all. Fear is uncomfy. We don't like it, okay? Possibly what you're reaching for is FDR's "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself. If your always afraid of fear, of course it's uncomfortable. But some folks foster the idea that fear is bad. So they resist or become afraid of becoming afraid. I was lucky enough to experience overcoming fear at an early age and know that confronting fear directly, can transform perception. But it is that fear of confronting fear that must be seen through for what it is, a powerless thought... And that the only strength it has over you is the strength that you gave it and nothing more. A realization created the world of separateness, the effect being fear, pain and suffering and only direct seeing can vanquish that false thought once and for all. Yes, I agree with that. The feeling of fear itself, devoid of struggle and future projection, is not a problem at all. If it were, we would never watch scary movies or take risks. The only issue I had was with the convoluted wording of fearing the fear of the fear of the fear of the..........Hehe.
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Post by michaelsees on Mar 25, 2011 7:53:33 GMT -5
"you are afraid of fearing the fear." actually makes no sense at all. Fear is uncomfy. We don't like it, okay? Possibly what you're reaching for is FDR's "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself. Of course that's why I gave the example of a panic attack. I knew what TRF was saying it's quite simple but I understand what you mean also. Micheal
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Post by someNOTHING! on Mar 25, 2011 9:30:08 GMT -5
Could sound a bit heavy handed if one is looking at the possible intent of the pointer. If someone is not sure how or from where fear is originating (because they are spinning or juggling concepts) and they are not sure of or fear what they are desiring, because they realize they are not sure from where desire is originating, a little loopdeewoohoo poetic thump between the I's can derail the train of thought running between them, so to speak. Stranger things have happened, I'm sure. Something as simple as "I don't know" came from somewhere, and a whole boatload of me just dropped one day. I'd said it, read it, and rationalized it hundreds of times, but that one day..... Of course, the me took owndoership of that for a while and back onto stage it went, but talk about turning points held fondly in memory. Hard to say when poop happens. But then again, I could be wrong about the original intent altogether, and perhaps even missed your intent. It's been a long week of amazing intercultural presentations! Proud of my students and their intentions! ;D
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Post by enigma on Mar 25, 2011 9:53:53 GMT -5
Well, that's the thingy; instead of a cleverly designed koan, I saw unnecessary complexity. They can sound similar, but while one freezes the mind, the other engages it.
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Post by question on Mar 25, 2011 12:06:59 GMT -5
As far as I can tell, pedophiles are certainly afraid - afraid of peers, and they exploit the perceived power differential between themselves and their victims. This isn't conscious of course. Ever hear a pedophile rationalize - they are the epitome of peeps in denial. Why not simply visit a brothel? A similar power differential can be bought there.
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Post by question on Mar 25, 2011 12:10:37 GMT -5
Rape and pedophilia aren't really about the fulfillment of sexual desire at all. If that were the case, wouldn't it be easier and safer to find (or solicit) a willing partner? And what sort of a sexual urge is it exactly that expresses itself in the form of sex with children? Mostly it's about power and control, and often quite a bit of rage added in, but the dynamics can become very complex. At the root of it all is fear. To the extent that having sex isn't really about having an orgasm I agree that pedophilia isn't about the fulfillment of sexual desire. There are however many bizarre sexual practices based on desires and some of them involve an asymmetry between the participants and I don't think that we can exclude pedophilia from those practises. It's clear what the drug addict is afraid of, but it's not clear to me what a rapist is afraid of. I can't yet see how fear is the decisive factor in the self-delusion. I don't know, maybe you would simply want to. It's not impossible. What would stop you from hurting me if you don't have anything to be afraid of?
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