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Post by souley on Mar 23, 2011 2:58:34 GMT -5
This is what is being pointed to when one says processes, practices and progress is an illusion. It doesn't mean they're not happening or even that they don't need to happen. First of all, the one who apparently progresses is itself an illusion. Secondly, the temporal structure in which progression apparently happens is an illusion. Thirdly, what is imagined to be progressing toward Truth is Truth itself, (the seeker is the sought) and so no actual movement toward it (or away from it) is even possible. Practices originate in an imaginary mind split in which there is apparently one who is wanting to think or not wanting to notice the obvious, and another who wants to stop the thinking and realize the obvious. This is ultimately a mind game, as not only are there not two minds present, there really isn't even one. Progress on the path is ultimately a movement from here to here since there is nowhere to go. I did not mean to say that practice is good and "just wait and you will see progress" or something like that. It was more like a "maybe you cant do so much, just see what happens". If you would wake up instantly, explode into boudlessness, you would probably almost go crazy like Susanne Seagal (I haven't read her book so dont take my word for it). So there is a kind of adapting to that which will take time no matter how frustrating that is. I will admit I don't really get the illusion stuff. I know truth is just here and now, but somehow truth sees truth now, but before truth thought it was something else and it was all messy. That is now just a memory appearing and then time is probably an illusion, but I don't think I "understand" that well enough to use it. Maybe you could help me with that?
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Post by souley on Mar 23, 2011 3:01:03 GMT -5
Practise is not a tool to try and conjure up realization (you might as well piss in the wind, and in that way I never tire of Enigma’s posts about the flawed nature of practises—with thanks) but it is a direct plugging into, right here right now, no trying to trick the gods, just connect! And connect again, and connect again.Wow I got tears in my eyes, thats just awesome. Great post:)
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Post by someNOTHING! on Mar 23, 2011 4:11:41 GMT -5
Practise is not a tool to try and conjure up realization (you might as well piss in the wind, and in that way I never tire of Enigma’s posts about the flawed nature of practises—with thanks) but it is a direct plugging into, right here right now, no trying to trick the gods, just connect! And connect again, and connect again.Wow I got tears in my eyes, thats just awesome. Great post:) Je conviens Messieurs. Tres beau! Aucune merde, juste vérité!! Aaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh! (running off a cliff, yelling fading out, silence) OK, enough Babel Fish.
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Post by vacant on Mar 23, 2011 4:32:58 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2011 8:12:10 GMT -5
In my experience it's unusual for someone to deny that there is a process involved; a path, study, practices, insights, experiences, purification, and I think there's general agreement that such efforts are most often necessary, but only because the conditioning is so strong. Illusion doesn't mean it's not apparently happening. When we say a mirage in the desert is an illusion, we don't mean that light is not being refracted by the surface heat in such a way that there appears to be a pool of water, we mean that this phenomena is not being seen for what it actually is; that it's being misconceived. This is what is being pointed to when one says processes, practices and progress is an illusion. It doesn't mean they're not happening or even that they don't need to happen. First of all, the one who apparently progresses is itself an illusion. Secondly, the temporal structure in which progression apparently happens is an illusion. Thirdly, what is imagined to be progressing toward Truth is Truth itself, (the seeker is the sought) and so no actual movement toward it (or away from it) is even possible. Practices originate in an imaginary mind split in which there is apparently one who is wanting to think or not wanting to notice the obvious, and another who wants to stop the thinking and realize the obvious. This is ultimately a mind game, as not only are there not two minds present, there really isn't even one. Progress on the path is ultimately a movement from here to here since there is nowhere to go. Though it may not be useful for a 'beginning seeker', for those who are a bit more seasoned, (the peeps on this forum) realizing this could potentially end the seeking, and ending the seeking is actually the 'goal' of the seeking. that's a keeper! LQTM
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Post by michaelsees on Mar 23, 2011 8:37:41 GMT -5
I did not mean to say that practice is good and "just wait and you will see progress" or something like that. It was more like a "maybe you cant do so much, just see what happens". If you would wake up instantly, explode into boudlessness, you would probably almost go crazy like Susanne Seagal (I haven't read her book so dont take my word for it). So there is a kind of adapting to that which will take time no matter how frustrating that is. I will admit I don't really get the illusion stuff. I know truth is just here and now, but somehow truth sees truth now, but before truth thought it was something else and it was all messy. That is now just a memory appearing and then time is probably an illusion, but I don't think I "understand" that well enough to use it. Maybe you could help me with that? Well that's why for some it's not good to read so much. SS is not the norm but what she says is real. Here's the thing 99.999% of seekers must practice does the practice work sure it works because of this one thing if you did not do the practice you will not awaken. Now here it gets tricky is it the recipe inside the practice that awakes you the answer is no. What happens to the 99% that do practice is if they continue they get to a point of spiritual exhaustion and it's at such points and I am not sure why that it's possible for the person to awaken. But you still have before all this a progression if it was not so the seeker would just give up and that would be that. So you begin by looking at a tree after a while you see it's not a tree a slight shift of your perception takes place you get a peep at what is. This gives you the motivation to move on. What would happen if you looked at a tree for weeks months and absolutely nothing happened. Who on earth would hang in there. The you who in truth is the absolute pretending to be this 3D body person give yourself a little bit of something to continue. This is what I mean by progression. To be honest I feel there are very feel people even doing this work to see who they are. They rather talk about it than do it. On this forum we probably have more since folks than on others who are dipping into what is. But I cannot emphasize enough how important it is to do the work. IT took me over 10 years to get to where I am and it needed a disaster to happen in my life to cap off everything I did for 10 years to get it and I still don't know really what I got but it was not of this world. Michael
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Post by michaelsees on Mar 23, 2011 8:41:54 GMT -5
michael honey, i don't mean to be rude, but here's something i notice. every time we get a good discussion going in a thread, where people are opening up, mentioning how helpful the thread is, and there's some real great dialogue going on.... it seems like you come along and take the focus of the thread away from the real juice and turn it on to you and your opinions. i am asking politely, if you really care about helping people at all, please take a minute to consider the context of an entire thread before you come along and hijack it with your opinions. this thread was awesome, one of the finest i've found in a while here, and just since you got back on the board it's now become all about you and your arguments and opinions. i will not say another word about this, nor argue with you at all. this is the only post i will post about this. please let this appeal to your better nature and just take a moment in silence before you hit send, next time you're compelled to interrupt a totally fabulous thread. thank you kindly my friend. Actually dear Angela, IF that is what happens I am sorry. What I wrote had more to do with E comments than the subject of the thread . So next time I will just PM E when he says something I feel is nuts. Your comments are always welcome and of course I am not offended. Peace Michael
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Post by zendancer on Mar 23, 2011 8:47:19 GMT -5
Wow, I don't get it. I posted a huge response to an earlier post and it never showed up. That's twice in two days this has happened. I'll try again later. AAR, this has been a fabulous thread and E.'s post was classic. More about that when I get some time.
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Post by question on Mar 23, 2011 11:20:57 GMT -5
I'm sure you've been suggested this before: it's handy to maintain a text file in which you write long-ish posts and then simply copy paste them on the forums, this way your posts won't get lost in cyber-nirvana and you won't have to waste time thinking about the same stuff twice.
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Post by enigma on Mar 23, 2011 11:30:39 GMT -5
This is what is being pointed to when one says processes, practices and progress is an illusion. It doesn't mean they're not happening or even that they don't need to happen. First of all, the one who apparently progresses is itself an illusion. Secondly, the temporal structure in which progression apparently happens is an illusion. Thirdly, what is imagined to be progressing toward Truth is Truth itself, (the seeker is the sought) and so no actual movement toward it (or away from it) is even possible. Practices originate in an imaginary mind split in which there is apparently one who is wanting to think or not wanting to notice the obvious, and another who wants to stop the thinking and realize the obvious. This is ultimately a mind game, as not only are there not two minds present, there really isn't even one. Progress on the path is ultimately a movement from here to here since there is nowhere to go. I did not mean to say that practice is good and "just wait and you will see progress" or something like that. It was more like a "maybe you cant do so much, just see what happens". If you would wake up instantly, explode into boudlessness, you would probably almost go crazy like Susanne Seagal (I haven't read her book so dont take my word for it). So there is a kind of adapting to that which will take time no matter how frustrating that is. Yeah, there seems to be a self-regulating in most cases that maintains stability of the psychic structure. Becoming a raving lunatic is not the best way to awaken, though it can be interesting and that also happens. Truth is highly antagonistic toward this structure and so the 'process' involves some peeking through the curtains, followed by an attempt to adapt to or repair the damage from what is seen, and yet what is seen seems to hold promise somehow because all genuine seeing is ultimately transformative in that something falls away and there is a lightness of some kind that follows which mind generally will not be able to make sense of since it is a loss only, and so there's another tentative peek through the curtains and the 'process' continues. Curiosity killed the kitty and there's much to be said for this form of self destruction. One of the most oddest thingies is that everybody already sees Truth because it can't possibly be hidden, and yet it's like that billboard along the freeway that you've stared at 100 times but you can't say what it's about since there was no particular interest. Still, you know what it's about and may even have bought the product because you know, not knowing that you know.
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Post by someNOTHING! on Mar 23, 2011 11:37:34 GMT -5
This is what is being pointed to when one says processes, practices and progress is an illusion. It doesn't mean they're not happening or even that they don't need to happen. First of all, the one who apparently progresses is itself an illusion. Secondly, the temporal structure in which progression apparently happens is an illusion. Thirdly, what is imagined to be progressing toward Truth is Truth itself, (the seeker is the sought) and so no actual movement toward it (or away from it) is even possible. Practices originate in an imaginary mind split in which there is apparently one who is wanting to think or not wanting to notice the obvious, and another who wants to stop the thinking and realize the obvious. This is ultimately a mind game, as not only are there not two minds present, there really isn't even one. Progress on the path is ultimately a movement from here to here since there is nowhere to go. I did not mean to say that practice is good and "just wait and you will see progress" or something like that. It was more like a "maybe you cant do so much, just see what happens". If you would wake up instantly, explode into boudlessness, you would probably almost go crazy like Susanne Seagal (I haven't read her book so dont take my word for it). So there is a kind of adapting to that which will take time no matter how frustrating that is. I will admit I don't really get the illusion stuff. I know truth is just here and now, but somehow truth sees truth now, but before truth thought it was something else and it was all messy. That is now just a memory appearing and then time is probably an illusion, but I don't think I "understand" that well enough to use it. Maybe you could help me with that? Yea, if this E-post doesn't lop your head off, just put your mind to it and down on the block a little longer! hehe It's a clean cut. Souley, from your post, it may be that you actually get the illusion stuff, and since "Truth sees Truth", illusion is just seen as just that, an aspect of the whole. Maybe another analogy will help clarify. In your view, in the analogy of a life-sized hologram you may be aware that "light sees light". You, the light, is just pure light prior to the template, and then through that whahahoopdeedoo the light becomes these amazing images of a closed context. Whether you are looking at and seeing "things", "your self", "beliefs", "thoughts",,,whatever, these are always just images AFTER the the light has passed through the template. You eventually realize that even that little you is an aspect of the light image looking at the stuff, thus, creating a closed dualistic context (like some sort of whingding movie theater) in which the you and the movie are one. It is realized that the seen and the seer are both of the same light. All these amazing phenomena of light, from "one seeing", to the "temporal structure", to the "progress toward Truth", to anything else that can be imagined are ALL actually the same light, and still within the context of dualism. A path is for the light to see that it is the light both before and after it passes through the template.
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Post by michaelsees on Mar 23, 2011 13:06:13 GMT -5
Wow, I don't get it. I posted a huge response to an earlier post and it never showed up. That's twice in two days this has happened. I'll try again later. AAR, this has been a fabulous thread and E.'s post was classic. More about that when I get some time. As Question said when you are making a long post just go to start then notepad(you might have to bring it up from accessories then just copy and paste it on your notepad then click save as and name it something and save on your desktop now you have it saved. IF you don't wish to save just used the - make it small and it will sit in your tray. Michael
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Post by souley on Mar 23, 2011 14:14:30 GMT -5
Hey thanks for your posts, I do think I get it (feel it) on some level.. will allow it to sink in!
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Post by Portto on Mar 23, 2011 14:21:38 GMT -5
Yeah, there seems to be a self-regulating in most cases that maintains stability of the psychic structure. Becoming a raving lunatic is not the best way to awaken, though it can be interesting and that also happens. Truth is highly antagonistic toward this structure and so the 'process' involves some peeking through the curtains, followed by an attempt to adapt to or repair the damage from what is seen, and yet what is seen seems to hold promise somehow because all genuine seeing is ultimately transformative in that something falls away and there is a lightness of some kind that follows which mind generally will not be able to make sense of since it is a loss only, and so there's another tentative peek through the curtains and the 'process' continues. Curiosity killed the kitty and there's much to be said for this form of self destruction. That accurate description sounds a lot like hide-and-seek or courting.
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Post by souley on Mar 23, 2011 14:24:25 GMT -5
Indeed very accurate More then a few times I felt that I had been a bit too curious. But then it was always too late.
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