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Post by someNOTHING! on Mar 19, 2011 10:25:19 GMT -5
Do you feel compelled to pay attention to the whimpering and crying, decipher its intent, and/or take a conciliatory position? Or do you sense you really don’t care what it’s on about? Just curious. As Zen alludes to, generally speaking, it seems that most people cower down to the mind when playing by its rules; it just drags them down and beats them into submission and continues to run the show. I wouldn't go there.
The not really digging the words and concepts is great; it’s the real business of sitting down, and getting to and seeing the Truth. But, then again, asking around here and there, you might get some good advice on direction. You stated in the opening post, “For quite a while I’ve felt like I wanted to ask something but haven’t known what it was. And I still don’t know what it is, but maybe this makes sense to someone?” This to me sounds a bit like you're in a place where a few of these things ring true. There may actually be no question, but you may still feel compelled to ask one, since it is quite abnormal to see things as you see them,,, at least in comparison to how most of the folks walking around do! Worry not Sister Kate, you’re with other loonies here, so, what you say does make sense, and you're headed in the right direction. So, watch out, the drunken crying and carrying on out on the curb may be getting to you. Many folks have a soft spot and respect for memories of dead people. hehe
Other than that, it just sounds a bit like the unpleasant task dealing with and dissolving some residual thought patterns, doubts and stuff. Taking out the garbage and kicking it to the curb. I wonder how hard headed you've been throughout your life! hehe You may have a strange time ahead of you.
Haha, I watched Rango tonight, and there was a bit in the movie that I really liked (quite a few actually),,,,DON’T READ the annotated version below if you don’t wanna, but it shouldn’t spoil much.
Rango: “I’m a fraud; I’m a phoney.…You don’t understand, I’m not even supposed to be here….”
Clint: “That’s right. You came a long way to find something that isn’t out here. Don’t you see, it’s not about you.”
Rango: “But I can’t go back.”
Clint: “Don’t know that you got a choice, son….No man can walk out on his own story.” ………..
Armadillo: “You made it to the other side of the road….we each see what we need to see.”
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Post by grapefruit on Mar 19, 2011 10:31:42 GMT -5
I didn't think that movie was stunning but it's got more truth related lines than I've ever seen in a movie actually, pretty much the whole thing. Definetly recommended.
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Post by teknix on Mar 19, 2011 10:33:15 GMT -5
I think it's funny you guys say that it is not about understanding, yet continue to try to explain.
I still am looking for an answer as to how you can see through experience.
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Post by angela on Mar 19, 2011 10:43:29 GMT -5
also, i keep coming back to one of my favorite phrases of all time by mr. david scoma: "ignore what you are not until it kills you"
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Post by Portto on Mar 19, 2011 10:54:47 GMT -5
I still am looking for an answer as to how you can see through experience. You are the 'experiencing.' When you relax into that, the problem of finding someone to see through experience is gone!
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Post by teknix on Mar 19, 2011 11:52:34 GMT -5
Yah, I can understand that, but in the context that it was given that answer will not suffice.
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Post by someNOTHING! on Mar 19, 2011 12:49:59 GMT -5
I think it's funny you guys say that it is not about understanding, yet continue to try to explain. Haha, me too. Why do you think so? Haha, not me. Why are you looking for an answer?
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Post by enigma on Mar 19, 2011 12:55:50 GMT -5
Ultimately, all questions are misconceived, and so 'answers' tend to be disappointing as they point to the misconceptions rather than addressing the question in it's own context. Somebody might ask 'Why does God make good people suffer?' To answer the question in the given context would be to accept that there is a personal God who controls stuff and judges good people and bad people and makes people suffer, so it's not possible to answer the question directly with anything that points at what might actually be true.
"I still am looking for an answer as to how you can see through experience."
'Seeing' (in the context of seeing beyond mind) is a funny thing. The 'how' refers to a mental process, and it's the mental processes that need to be seen through, so there isn't a technique that can be given for mind to see beyond mind. On the other hand, no technique is needed because what is actually the case is never actually hidden.
Where mind would typically go with that is 'Well, if it's not hidden, it must be obvious to me.' It IS obvious, but not necessarily noticed. This is where it's useful to notice how mind can distract to obscure the obvious, which is why distractions are often pointed out. So now the focus could be on noticing distractions. Everyone has had the experience of trying to meditate as mind throws up a wall of pointless distractions. It's a small sample of what mind does continuously. Life in the mind is an ongoing delusional distraction from it's own delusional suffering, which makes it impossible to notice what actually IS, and this distraction is necessary in order to maintain the very illusion that mind is seeking a practice to see through.
Zen talks about two worlds being explored on this forum now, and the contrast is useful because it shows the process of distraction. I'm reading about Kundalini experiences and drug induced experiences and awakening experiences, all of which are being intensely focused on while asking how one can see through experiences. Perhaps what is sought is the experience of seeing through experiences, which rather misses the point. If the attention is on the next experience, then there is really no interest in seeing through them, and this is how the obvious can remain hidden in plain sight.
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Post by angela on Mar 19, 2011 13:13:17 GMT -5
by u.g. krishnamurti:
"look here, i want to experience god, truth, reality or what you will, so i must understand the nature of the experiencing structure inside of me before i deal with all that. i must look at the instrument i am using. you are trying to capture something that cannot be captured in terms of your experiencing structure, so this experiencing structure must not be there in order that the other thing may come in. what that is, you will never know. you will never know the truth, because it's a movement. it's a movement! you cannot capture it, you cannot contain it, you cannot express it. it's not a logically ascertained premise that we are interested in. so , it has to be your discovery. what good is my experience? we have thousands and thousands of experiences recorded - they haven't helped you! it's the hope that keeps you going 'if i follow this for another ten years, fifteen years, maybe one of these days i will....' because hope is the structure."
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Post by enigma on Mar 19, 2011 14:44:47 GMT -5
"look here, i want to experience god, truth, reality or what you will, so i must understand the nature of the experiencing structure inside of me before i deal with all that. i must look at the instrument i am using. you are trying to capture something that cannot be captured in terms of your experiencing structure, so this experiencing structure must not be there in order that the other thing may come in."
Yes, there's talk about IT not being an understanding, and this is true, but the mind is the difficulty and this CAN be understood. You aren't the mind, but you are using the mind and how it is used IS the functioning. The answers are in the understanding of how the questions came about. It's not seen because there's no interest in dissolving the questions, and that's all that can happen. If the questions end, so does the questioner, and nobody wants that, so we go looking for another question, another possible answer, some sort of distraction to keep it from falling apart completely.
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Post by someNOTHING! on Mar 19, 2011 20:39:11 GMT -5
Ultimately, all questions are misconceived, and so 'answers' tend to be disappointing as they point to the misconceptions rather than addressing the question in it's own context. so it's not possible to answer the question directly with anything that points at what might actually be true. 'Seeing' (in the context of seeing beyond mind) is a funny thing. The 'how' refers to a mental process, and it's the mental processes that need to be seen through, so there isn't a technique that can be given for mind to see beyond mind. On the other hand, no technique is needed because what is actually the case is never actually hidden. It IS obvious, but not necessarily noticed. This is where it's useful to notice how mind can distract to obscure the obvious, which is why distractions are often pointed out. Life in the mind is an ongoing delusional distraction from it's own delusional suffering, which makes it impossible to notice what actually IS, and this distraction is necessary in order to maintain the very illusion that mind is seeking a practice to see through. Perhaps what is sought is the experience of seeing through experiences, which rather misses the point. If the attention is on the next experience, then there is really no interest in seeing through them, and this is how the obvious can remain hidden in plain sight. Very nicely distilled here! Got a little drunk and felt a little more naked upon reading this. Yes, if the attention is not in the moment, perception is being filtered, processed through the mind as thinking. What IS is divided into parts deemed necessary by the mind which thinks it has hijacked reality and is in control. All practices conjured up by the mind for seeing through this illusion of separateness and division, though seemingly useful to the mind at the time, eventually must fail. Reality is relentless!
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Post by enigma on Mar 19, 2011 21:14:38 GMT -5
"All practices conjured up by the mind for seeing through this illusion of separateness and division, though seemingly useful to the mind at the time, eventually must fail. Reality is relentless!"
Yes indeedy. Seeing through all practices can save a lot of time and effort.
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Post by kate on Mar 20, 2011 19:28:06 GMT -5
Thanks everyone for chatting with me about this. I'm not sure how to quote from more than one person in the same reply or even if it's possible, so I've just done in manually. I hope it's not too confusing.
Zendancer: “Stay with the actual until you find Rumi's field where the world is too full to talk about. Lay down in that infinite grass and leave the mind in that other world. Read this forum. There are two different worlds being discussed here. Your body knows which one is real.”
That sounds rather nice! And yes, I can see quite clearly which world is real, thank god.
Enigma: “It IS obvious, but not necessarily noticed. This is where it's useful to notice how mind can distract to obscure the obvious, which is why distractions are often pointed out. So now the focus could be on noticing distractions. Everyone has had the experience of trying to meditate as mind throws up a wall of pointless distractions. It's a small sample of what mind does continuously. Life in the mind is an ongoing delusional distraction from it's own delusional suffering, which makes it impossible to notice what actually IS, and this distraction is necessary in order to maintain the very illusion that mind is seeking a practice to see through.”
Yes, I saw through a few things when I stopped trying to meditate and started to notice how my failure to meditate happened. I saw that it’s not about stopping thoughts but about what is there regardless of thoughts. I could see that thoughts came and went and there was a constant regardless of thoughts and regardless of whether there was a belief in the thoughts. The idea that the thoughts are who I am seems to be about attention being on them, attention sort of buries itself in them. I don’t totally understand attention, though. It goes wherever it goes but there’s no one directing it as far as I can see. I don’t seem t have any control over it. And yet obviously it is directed by something because it moves – and maybe it just moves wherever there’s movement? Is that the extent of the interest? Although how can whatever is directing attention be something that can be interested?
Angela: “so. thank you for writing this. it's vulnerable to just come up in here and admit you don't know anything anymore, and that it's all grown thin and weird.”
You’re welcome! I’m glad it was relatable for someone, even if it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense.
SomeNOTHING!: “Do you feel compelled to pay attention to the whimpering and crying, decipher its intent, and/or take a conciliatory position? Or do you sense you really don’t care what it’s on about?”
For the most part I don’t really care what it’s on about.
“There may actually be no question, but you may still feel compelled to ask one”
Yep, I’d say you’re 100% correct there.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2011 19:43:56 GMT -5
also, i keep coming back to one of my favorite phrases of all time by mr. david scoma: "ignore what you are not until it kills you" i love that too. but in practice, daily living, moment to moment stumbling and dancing, it's a bit hard to confidently discern what you are from what you are not? non? is this just something hard for me? for example, right now, in this very post, is it what i am not or what i am? sh*t if i know. alright it is what is. okay, that's always a good answer. but should i ignore it or just hit that post reply button? :::drum roll...:::
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Post by enigma on Mar 20, 2011 20:17:40 GMT -5
Enigma: “It IS obvious, but not necessarily noticed. This is where it's useful to notice how mind can distract to obscure the obvious, which is why distractions are often pointed out. So now the focus could be on noticing distractions. Everyone has had the experience of trying to meditate as mind throws up a wall of pointless distractions. It's a small sample of what mind does continuously. Life in the mind is an ongoing delusional distraction from it's own delusional suffering, which makes it impossible to notice what actually IS, and this distraction is necessary in order to maintain the very illusion that mind is seeking a practice to see through.” Yes, I saw through a few things when I stopped trying to meditate and started to notice how my failure to meditate happened. I saw that it’s not about stopping thoughts but about what is there regardless of thoughts. I could see that thoughts came and went and there was a constant regardless of thoughts and regardless of whether there was a belief in the thoughts. Yup, I can totally identify with that. Yes, what you are is the attention. Attention isn't thinking until it touches mind, so it moves spontaneously wherever it is drawn. Control doesn't enter the picture. It's drawn by the interest in thoughts, feelings and sensory perception. This is God falling into his own dream, and it's all very innocent and playful until somebody pokes an 'I' out. (hehe) There is no interest until perception happens, and the interest is formed from within the dreamscape.
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