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Post by kate on Mar 21, 2011 19:43:59 GMT -5
I probably don't see it with absolute clarity. I mean, my immediate response is: of course thoughts only reference other thoughts! How could they reference anything else? They're stuck being thoughts, mingling with other thoughts in their thought world. Now, I don't know where that came from or whether it's even true. When you say no thoughts are ultimately true do you mean that they’re not true because they're thoughts, as opposed to them not being true because they're about the fact that I think this forum is full of pistachio ice cream? It sounds like you're seeing it with some degree of clarity, then as you talked about, mind steps in and says things like 'where did it come from and is it even true?' Maybe a premature pulling of attention away from the 'looking' into the thinking. Mind will always be able to question what is seen, so it has to be absolutely clear so that mind's doubt become irrelevant. What you 'see' beyond mind is the sudden collapse of what is in mind. It's not a thought stream or a concept until mind conceptualizes it, which is fine AFTER it is seen with absolute clarity. Be very gentle and patient with the 'looking'. It's very subtle. Mind will give you a focus of consciousness, then hit the pause button on mind and look at the bigger picture without knowing what you're looking for. When I say they're not ultimately True I mean they're over here (pointing to the right) in a feeding frenzy with themselves, while that which is prior to all thought (pointing to the left) is watching the feeding frenzy in complete stillness with no thought. What is over there (pointing to the feeding frenzy) can't possibly say anything about what's over there (pointing to that which is aware of the feeding frenzy, and about which there is literally nothing to know because it stands before knowledge, as the source of knowledge, prior to knowledge) "Maybe a premature pulling of attention away from the 'looking' into the thinking." - Yep, it's definitely this. And yes to the description re: thoughts not being ultimately true - that I understand. "It's not a thought stream or a concept until mind conceptualizes it, which is fine AFTER it is seen with absolute clarity. Be very gentle and patient with the 'looking'. It's very subtle. Mind will give you a focus of consciousness, then hit the pause button on mind and look at the bigger picture without knowing what you're looking for." This is very helpful. I think I do just need to be more gentle and patient. Hehe...in fact that's not bad advice for me generally, now I think about it. Hahaha. Yes, that fits in a lot of ways. Not strong points of mine, I'm afraid. Bovines, porcelain etc. Hehe.
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jazz
Full Member
Posts: 197
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Post by jazz on Mar 21, 2011 20:29:40 GMT -5
This thread has been very helpful to me as well. Thank you!
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Post by souley on Mar 22, 2011 15:31:43 GMT -5
When the body/mind thing learns something new, for example playing the piano, it is first working in a intellectual, "thinking mode". Every move has to be actively thought through and everything is pretty .. clumsy. But if you keep practicing, the brain will kind of "rewire" itself to become more efficient at whatever you are practicing, and playing the piano becomes more and more natural. I would even suggest that this rewiring goes on inbetween practice sessions, and is limited by time. You can only adapt so fast.
For this body/mind the spiritual path has been similar. Intellectual understanding do get followed by "embodied" understanding, but it takes a while. My experience has been of a very much physical transformation, where the feeling of "me" has expanded from the body into the such infiniteness nothing.
Just saying that its not all up to your understanding or whatever.. it may actually take some time as well.
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Post by michaelsees on Mar 22, 2011 17:48:25 GMT -5
When the body/mind thing learns something new, for example playing the piano, it is first working in a intellectual, "thinking mode". Every move has to be actively thought through and everything is pretty .. clumsy. But if you keep practicing, the brain will kind of "rewire" itself to become more efficient at whatever you are practicing, and playing the piano becomes more and more natural. I would even suggest that this rewiring goes on inbetween practice sessions, and is limited by time. You can only adapt so fast. For this body/mind the spiritual path has been similar. Intellectual understanding do get followed by "embodied" understanding, but it takes a while. My experience has been of a very much physical transformation, where the feeling of "me" has expanded from the body into the such infiniteness nothing. Just saying that its not all up to your understanding or whatever.. it may actually take some time as well. Excellent post this is exactly what I have been saying about progression. There some here that believe different like there is no progression that it's a illusion but it's not. Even ZD admits to progression when he speaks about looking at a tree or a house that it takes time maybe days or weeks until the actual peeps out. I mean this is such a simple thing to admit but some here are very adamant to say progression is a illusion. I say they are nuts and have not a clue what the actual is. I really have to say I dislike such people that give false advice it does not help the beginning seeker one bit. You do progress on the spiritual path that is a fact. It took Nis 3 years well is that progression or not! The brain does in effect rewire it's like muscle memory if you do anything with your hands long enough it becomes automatic. Michael
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Post by enigma on Mar 22, 2011 18:27:03 GMT -5
In my experience it's unusual for someone to deny that there is a process involved; a path, study, practices, insights, experiences, purification, and I think there's general agreement that such efforts are most often necessary, but only because the conditioning is so strong.
Illusion doesn't mean it's not apparently happening. When we say a mirage in the desert is an illusion, we don't mean that light is not being refracted by the surface heat in such a way that there appears to be a pool of water, we mean that this phenomena is not being seen for what it actually is; that it's being misconceived.
This is what is being pointed to when one says processes, practices and progress is an illusion. It doesn't mean they're not happening or even that they don't need to happen. First of all, the one who apparently progresses is itself an illusion. Secondly, the temporal structure in which progression apparently happens is an illusion. Thirdly, what is imagined to be progressing toward Truth is Truth itself, (the seeker is the sought) and so no actual movement toward it (or away from it) is even possible.
Practices originate in an imaginary mind split in which there is apparently one who is wanting to think or not wanting to notice the obvious, and another who wants to stop the thinking and realize the obvious. This is ultimately a mind game, as not only are there not two minds present, there really isn't even one. Progress on the path is ultimately a movement from here to here since there is nowhere to go.
Though it may not be useful for a 'beginning seeker', for those who are a bit more seasoned, (the peeps on this forum) realizing this could potentially end the seeking, and ending the seeking is actually the 'goal' of the seeking.
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Post by vacant on Mar 22, 2011 19:20:28 GMT -5
When the body/mind thing learns something new, for example playing the piano, it is first working in a intellectual, "thinking mode". Every move has to be actively thought through and everything is pretty .. clumsy. But if you keep practicing, the brain will kind of "rewire" itself to become more efficient at whatever you are practicing, and playing the piano becomes more and more natural. I would even suggest that this rewiring goes on inbetween practice sessions, and is limited by time. You can only adapt so fast. For this body/mind the spiritual path has been similar. Intellectual understanding do get followed by "embodied" understanding, but it takes a while. My experience has been of a very much physical transformation, where the feeling of "me" has expanded from the body into the such infiniteness nothing. Just saying that its not all up to your understanding or whatever.. it may actually take some time as well. Yes Souley and the way you are posting now is testimony of the transformation process you are referring to. For me this process is not a transformation towards or into “it”, but IS “it”. Practise is not a tool to try and conjure up realization (you might as well piss in the wind, and in that way I never tire of Enigma’s posts about the flawed nature of practises—with thanks) but it is a direct plugging into, right here right now, no trying to trick the gods, just connect! And connect again, and connect again. That practise is the incarnation of the irresistible longing and yes, yes, the transformative power operates much more in between sessions than during those clumsy attempts. I am often amazed how some pointing that I received months or years ago only after so long makes it through as true understanding. "embodied" to take your expression, Souley. Point being: the path is not about going somewhere, it is IT. I often read those religious slogans in the front of christian churches, like “Jesus said I am the way” which often gets blindly preached as “faith in Jesus is the way to salvation”. What is really meant by “I am the way” IMO is “the process is I”. But I also totally get Enigma’s point about practises doing didly squat and willingness being all (hehe, see what I mean about how long things take to filter through!?). Now talk about humbling statements! You can do or pretend to do practises but what the hell can you do about conjuring up willingness? It’s there or it aint. And all fine and perfect like that!!! One can acknowledge/ recognize/ stay with the desperation and at the same time not trying too hard because that tends to botch things up, although that’s also part of it! And stay with this kind of call: all I can do is rely on THIS coming through on its own terms. IT’s aiming to see through (I know because that’s why I suffer) and I welcome it, chomping through. In simple terms, let thy will be done.
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Post by vacant on Mar 22, 2011 19:26:45 GMT -5
This is what is being pointed to when one says processes, practices and progress is an illusion. It doesn't mean they're not happening or even that they don't need to happen. First of all, the one who apparently progresses is itself an illusion. Secondly, the temporal structure in which progression apparently happens is an illusion. Thirdly, what is imagined to be progressing toward Truth is Truth itself, (the seeker is the sought) and so no actual movement toward it (or away from it) is even possible. E, you posted that while I was typing and i think we're on the same page
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Post by michaelsees on Mar 22, 2011 19:48:24 GMT -5
In my experience it's unusual for someone to deny that there is a process involved; a path, study, practices, insights, experiences, purification, and I think there's general agreement that such efforts are most often necessary, but only because the conditioning is so strong. Illusion doesn't mean it's not apparently happening. When we say a mirage in the desert is an illusion, we don't mean that light is not being refracted by the surface heat in such a way that there appears to be a pool of water, we mean that this phenomena is not being seen for what it actually is; that it's being misconceived. This is what is being pointed to when one says processes, practices and progress is an illusion. It doesn't mean they're not happening or even that they don't need to happen. First of all, the one who apparently progresses is itself an illusion. Secondly, the temporal structure in which progression apparently happens is an illusion. Thirdly, what is imagined to be progressing toward Truth is Truth itself, (the seeker is the sought) and so no actual movement toward it (or away from it) is even possible. Practices originate in an imaginary mind split in which there is apparently one who is wanting to think or not wanting to notice the obvious, and another who wants to stop the thinking and realize the obvious. This is ultimately a mind game, as not only are there not two minds present, there really isn't even one. Progress on the path is ultimately a movement from here to here since there is nowhere to go. Though it may not be useful for a 'beginning seeker', for those who are a bit more seasoned, (the peeps on this forum) realizing this could potentially end the seeking, and ending the seeking is actually the 'goal' of the seeking. yeah yeah yeah E but get a clue all that stuff you just wrote means nothing if you don't do the work to get there I don't care if you call it illusion, dog popo or whatever. IOW nothing you said helps anyone you are talking from the other end. I don't think you will ever get me. Do the work, the looking at the tree, house whatever put in the time. Who gives a dam what it is at the end before they start the journeyor are half way there what you say is no help IMO IT sounds good like oh wow that's what it is when it does no good. I am sorry but seriously I do not see what you give as help. Help a person where they are. You always speak of what it is ultimately how can that help anyone that is on the journey? You really ruffle my feathers at time because I know your smart and I get you right from the start but you still do not get me.. Also any one you or Vacant whatever say practice does squat are not awaken or even near it. You have no idea probably what a serious practice is. You want to awaken do the work. It took nis 3 years of practice to awaken you put yourself on his level please make me laugh. IT took ZD 34 years ..you guys crack me up because your not even on a path of awakening you are just Talking heads IMHO of course I don't mean to be snappy but this kind of immature posting gets to me. You know in Tribal cultures the Shamans will only share there knowledge with equals IOW they speak of the high learning to others that have earned it. There a very good reason whay they do such a thing. If they spoke what they know to someone that is only beginning the journey 2 things happen one thing is it ruins the journey of the novice because now he know high learning but he only knows in his head not embodied so he's done but even worst the second thing it does is makes someone like the posters I am speaking to now the novice can speak to others about this and it just goes on and on. It really messes up everything in my opinion. Michael
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Post by kate on Mar 22, 2011 20:28:41 GMT -5
As the person who started this thread I have found enigma's posts extremely helpful. I am very grateful.
michael, you accuse others of being "immature" but in post after post of yours I see insults (sometimes personal), rudeness, belittling and mockery.
I have seen you post before that people who are genuine in their looking for the truth will see it in the words of those who are speaking from that place. I couldn't agree more. You don't need to warn anyone off anything, people will see the truth where they see it regardless of what you say.
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Post by michaelsees on Mar 22, 2011 20:37:25 GMT -5
Dear Kate your comments are welcome I have no problem with them. But please try to understand what I am saying it does no good at all to know what Ultimately is when you are just beginning your journey. What helps is dealing with where you are now. If E has done that for you then great it's a good thing. My post to E about illusion has absolutely nothing to do with your situation. I was speaking about calling everything a illusion. This to me is what makes neo-advaita such a no winner. Hey it's all a illusion well maybe true in the ultimate sense but it's not true for you if you think it is put a knife through your hand right now and see reality will come very false I am assured. If you are serious about knowing who you are you MUST put in the effort, putting in the effort is not a illusion it means your time and commitment you begin from there dear. What good is it if someone tells you what all this is when you are not at all able to receive it. You will only receive it in your head. Again that post was not meant for you. I do wish you the best on your journey one day at a time Also on your comment people will see the truth be careful people will see what they want or have been programed to see. You need to be careful here Kate just because you may see something and it clicks does not mean it's the truth it just means your mind and memory likes what it hears. Anyhow take good care
Michael
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Post by enigma on Mar 22, 2011 20:53:04 GMT -5
This is what is being pointed to when one says processes, practices and progress is an illusion. It doesn't mean they're not happening or even that they don't need to happen. First of all, the one who apparently progresses is itself an illusion. Secondly, the temporal structure in which progression apparently happens is an illusion. Thirdly, what is imagined to be progressing toward Truth is Truth itself, (the seeker is the sought) and so no actual movement toward it (or away from it) is even possible. E, you posted that while I was typing and i think we're on the same page Yes. I enjoyed the clarity in your previous post.
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Post by kate on Mar 22, 2011 20:56:49 GMT -5
Also on your comment people will see the truth be careful people will see what they want or have been programed to see. You need to be careful here Kate just because you may see something and it clicks does not mean it's the truth it just means your mind and memory likes what it hears. Anyhow take good care Michael I can see when someone is speaking from a place of truth. There’s probably a lot I need to be careful of but I don’t need to worry about that.
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Post by michaelsees on Mar 22, 2011 21:24:09 GMT -5
Well the truth is everything you read here weather it sounds true to you or not is not real Kate. It's all a illusion, there is no Kate to read the words cuz there are no words here. What really is here and now is nothing. Now what I just wrote is all true but does it help anyone. I don't think so..
Anyhow I am very happy that you are finding help here from whoever.
with love Michael
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Post by angela on Mar 22, 2011 21:45:17 GMT -5
michael honey, i don't mean to be rude, but here's something i notice. every time we get a good discussion going in a thread, where people are opening up, mentioning how helpful the thread is, and there's some real great dialogue going on.... it seems like you come along and take the focus of the thread away from the real juice and turn it on to you and your opinions. i am asking politely, if you really care about helping people at all, please take a minute to consider the context of an entire thread before you come along and hijack it with your opinions. this thread was awesome, one of the finest i've found in a while here, and just since you got back on the board it's now become all about you and your arguments and opinions. i will not say another word about this, nor argue with you at all. this is the only post i will post about this. please let this appeal to your better nature and just take a moment in silence before you hit send, next time you're compelled to interrupt a totally fabulous thread. thank you kindly my friend.
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Post by enigma on Mar 22, 2011 23:48:29 GMT -5
I'm hesitant to add to your comments, Angela, and yet they hit the mark. I was telling Marie earlier that, while Michael doesn't inhibit me at all, that may not be the case with all the posters here. I did enjoy the depth and openness that some folks showed in this recent discussion, and I look forward to the next time.
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