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Post by ivory on Jan 16, 2011 17:13:08 GMT -5
This question has been haunting me, how do I know I'm on the right track?
Unless awakening has occurred, is there any way at all to gauge progress? In other words, as far as practice goes, how do I know I'm doing what I should be doing?
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Post by enigma on Jan 16, 2011 17:16:22 GMT -5
I would say it's unavoidable because our interest always points to our next boundary, and it is that interest which is always being explored. There can't be a better way for you than whatever is happening right now.
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Post by zendancer on Jan 16, 2011 17:19:37 GMT -5
Stay with "what is" and you can't go wrong. To guage one's progress is to reinforce the idea that there is someone making progress, and there isn't. Do whatever you have to do 100%, and the imaginary do-er will disappear in the action.
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Post by therealfake on Jan 16, 2011 20:33:27 GMT -5
This question has been haunting me, how do I know I'm on the right track? Unless awakening has occurred, is there any way at all to gauge progress? In other words, as far as practice goes, how do I know I'm doing what I should be doing? If your looking for sign posts, it's a sense of peace. Within that peace, there's a lack of psychological fear. You still need physical fear, to jump back onto the curb when a car is bearing down on you... Also, social anxiety is felt more like a twinge in the stomach, rather than the wave that can overcome the mind/body matrix. Your happier and laugh more and there is a spontaneity to your actions. Your calmer and have a feeling of spaciousness. A feeling of expanding rather than contracting. Things that use to make you angry don't anymore. A sense that your being taken care of. I'm sure along the way, there will be even more feelings, like unconditional love and bliss. (not there yet  Let's just say, you'll know. |
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Post by eputkonen on Jan 16, 2011 23:25:43 GMT -5
Who/what progresses other than the ego...and if awakening is transcending or seeing through the ego, then what can the ego do and what progress could there be?
All that I thought was progress turned out to be nothing at all after awakening.
But I do like what Ramana Maharshi said...the degree of the absense of thoughts are the gauge for spiritual progress. How quiet is your mind? It is probably the most accurate gauge that I have heard of.
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Post by michaelsees on Jan 17, 2011 10:08:31 GMT -5
Who/what progresses other than the ego...and if awakening is transcending or seeing through the ego, then what can the ego do and what progress could there be? All that I thought was progress turned out to be nothing at all after awakening. But I do like what Ramana Maharshi said...the degree of the absense of thoughts are the gauge for spiritual progress. How quiet is your mind? It is probably the most accurate gauge that I have heard of. Hi Eputkonen, Nice to see you again. How is your teaching and writing going these days? "All that I thought was progress turned out to be nothing at all after awakening."
This is spot on. I would say be extra vigilant of sign posts. The mind/ego is extremely tricky. More peace does not necessary mean you are getting closer to the direct experience of who you truly are. It's a hard thing to hear the truth that when awakening happens it happens and nothing you have done up to that point made it happen sooner. Stopping thoughts by your own effort will not help as it's still a ego/mind doing. However I believe what Ramana was speaking about has to do with thoughts falling away on their own not by effort. Awakening needs a clean thought free moment to happen. So thoughts dropping away by themselves may mean some kind of preparation is happening. Michael |
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Post by therealfake on Jan 17, 2011 12:38:12 GMT -5
Who/what progresses other than the ego...and if awakening is transcending or seeing through the ego, then what can the ego do and what progress could there be? All that I thought was progress turned out to be nothing at all after awakening. But I do like what Ramana Maharshi said...the degree of the absense of thoughts are the gauge for spiritual progress. How quiet is your mind? It is probably the most accurate gauge that I have heard of. Hi eputkonen, Good post...  Being awakend, your probably not going to take this question personally. But I do make it with all due respect and sinceretiy about the exploration of awakening. 'Burt Harding has said, that if someone tells you that they are awakend, you can be sure that they are not'. So, my question is, what do you mean by 'your awakening'? Thanks in advance... TRF |
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Post by popee on Jan 17, 2011 14:23:17 GMT -5
How many of us can honestly expect to awaken? From what I've read, its kind of hit or miss, and there is no guarantee that even devoted aspirants will ever change over.
But perhaps progress could be seen as, improvements in day to day living. For me, when I recognized the workings of the ego, my life slowly began to change. When moods, or silly thoughts arise, I step back from them, and they usually go away quickly. I am now much calmer, and I assume the people in my vicinity have noticed my new demeanor.
But, this new way of living has pitfalls as well. I often get asked, "you look so deep in thought, what are you thinking about?", and when I say "nothing" (which is often true) they assume I'm just not saying. And when the questions of "do you remember when ...?" is answered by "no", that often brings about concern for my apparent memory loss. I suppose those memories are still somewhere in my brain, but I almost never recall them, so they have mostly faded from my consciousness.
So, personally I have found my newer life as being better than the old, but it is not without some side effects.
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Post by michaelsees on Jan 17, 2011 14:44:16 GMT -5
The idea of awakening has been grossing distorted by most.
Since we use words which automatically orientate themselves to time and space the subject of someone becoming awaken becomes a confusing mess.
It becomes clearer when you agree with yourself that time and individuality are not facts, not true and are illusions vs truth.
The truth says as well as the sages that you are and always have been awaken to who you are.
Once and forever awaken. The truth says there is only 1 not 2 nor 6 billion.
Advaita(non duality) really means 1 without a second not even a 2.
Awakening is really a simple process where the mind becomes quiet enough for you to see .
If you never have that seeing does it change the truth of who you are?
Do you really think by having that seeing that you are going to be transformed somehow?
This is why true teachers say be happy and be happy with what is.
The mind is strong and you could have this seeing of who you are every 3rd day and still forget on day 2 what and who you are..so just be happy and enjoy the amazement that is always yours by simply waiting to see what happens next in life.
Michael
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Post by eputkonen on Jan 17, 2011 15:09:51 GMT -5
By that rule the Buddha was not awake because he said he was awake. (Buddha means the awakened one)
To say "I am awake" is not necessarily an egotistical statement...it could simply be a statement of fact (likely mentioned only because it was important to mention it at that point for some reason).
Although, I have met people who said they are awakened and clearly were not...so of course, you can't automatically believe everyone. But to say "I am awake" does not automatically mean you are not.
It is perhaps a clever saying, but not toally accurate.
Enlightenment.
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Post by ivory on Jan 17, 2011 15:11:22 GMT -5
Who/what progresses other than the ego...and if awakening is transcending or seeing through the ego, then what can the ego do and what progress could there be? I've always thought to turn the ego/mind on itself. Observing the ego/mind at work. How can the ego/mind be transcended if the ego/mind is still believed? It almost sounds like you're saying that insights are irrelevant. It becomes clearer when you agree with yourself that time and individuality are not facts, not true and are illusions vs truth. What is agreement but blind acceptance? A belief. Belief, even if aligned with the truth, is not true. Truth must be experienced first hand. We could agree with every single point that non-duality teaches but that wouldn't get us anywhere. |
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Post by michaelsees on Jan 17, 2011 15:17:35 GMT -5
no no you misunderstood completely.
it's the problem with words.
agree with yourself the relative self through a true seeing.
you need to know that you will have this relative self to deal with until you die.
Anyhow you get it or not fine with me.
I am getting tired of writing too much to explain too little these days.
Michael
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Post by eputkonen on Jan 17, 2011 15:23:20 GMT -5
Who/what progresses other than the ego...and if awakening is transcending or seeing through the ego, then what can the ego do and what progress could there be? I've always thought to turn the ego/mind on itself. Observing the ego/mind at work. How can the ego/mind be transcended if the ego/mind is still believed? It almost sounds like you're saying that insights are irrelevant. Insights...no, just efforts and progress. |
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Post by m on Jan 17, 2011 15:29:21 GMT -5
Indeed words are lying. May be the only in that is : are theses lies useful, in some way ? Kind of skillful means, learning devices... so within this "all mental frame " the sharper the words the less misleading they are. "truth" is rightly opposed to "lies", reality to illusion. illusion being believing appearances (whatever we perceive ,abstract or concrete) are reality in itself instead of appearances of the reality. the word "awakening" is an even misleading word: it is pointing a process (..."ing": formal stuff) leading nowhere else than to the form (continuing networks of processes). When, as you said, "truth" or reality is not any process (while "containing all). So, in a way "awakening" is just kind of mixing levels (the very structure of paradoxe)... so good for the thinkers, they 'll plenty of time enjoying the mess! m The idea of awakening has been grossing distorted by most. Since we use words which automatically orientate themselves to time and space the subject of someone becoming awaken becomes a confusing mess. It becomes clearer when you agree with yourself that time and individuality are not facts, not true and are illusions vs truth. The truth says as well as the sages that you are and always have been awaken to who you are. Once and forever awaken. The truth says there is only 1 not 2 nor 6 billion. Advaita(non duality) really means 1 without a second not even a 2. Awakening is really a simple process where the mind becomes quiet enough for you to see . If you never have that seeing does it change the truth of who you are? Do you really think by having that seeing that you are going to be transformed somehow? This is why true teachers say be happy and be happy with what is. The mind is strong and you could have this seeing of who you are every 3rd day and still forget on day 2 what and who you are..so just be happy and enjoy the amazement that is always yours by simply waiting to see what happens next in life. Michael |
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Post by ivory on Jan 17, 2011 15:31:18 GMT -5
I'm probably opening a can of worms by saying this but f**k it...
Regarding those that claim they are awake, personally, I prefer to know who I'm dealing (especially online). Sometimes it's obvious to know if one is awake by exchanging in dialog with them, other times it's not. These days I'm very picky about who I take advice from. How can one trust the advice from an unawakened mind? Honesty is key in these exchanges.
Yes, you hear that those who claim they are awake are not truly awake. Personally, I think it's just a bunch a BS. Perhaps one is simply stating a fact. Some may keep their mouths shout simply because they are told that a truly awakened being wouldn't say anything about, and that's just dishonesty and incongruence. Others just don't give a f**k either way.
I think what Douglas Harding's claim is just as egotistical as one claiming he's awake. Not that I give a s**t.
That being said, just because one has awakened does not mean that he's not full of it. You don't wake up and instantly leave all ego behind, you wouldn't be able to function without it. An awakened mind is still a mind and all minds are conditioned and delusional. There are plenty awakened beings out there that have massive egos.
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