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Post by zendancer on Jan 17, 2011 22:07:37 GMT -5
Thanks ZD. I can only speak for myself in this, but what I've noticed is that the more that I understand the workings of the mind (insight), the less that I get caught up in believing thought. In fact, it seems that what is happening is that belief, or the illusion of self, is falling away. Yes, and so while there is a point to be made by saying nobody makes progress toward awakening, it's also true that progress is made toward awakening. Hehe. The progress takes the form of a disillusion of attachments, beliefs, fears, etc, which is effectively the dissolving of the belief in the self through which distraction from, and resistance to, realization occurs. Awakening is not the acquisition of something, and in this sense there is no actual movement toward something, but it is a realization that occurs when the conditions are ripe. It is possible to move toward those helpful conditions. We could call this progress. Precisely!
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Post by enigma on Jan 17, 2011 22:09:54 GMT -5
The only way you know your new life is better than your old life is by continually recalling what your old life was like, so I don't share the concern with others over your memory loss. Hehe. Yes but certainly not necessary a sign of awakening. Your new life can be better by being a born again Christian, Muslin, or just surrendering to God. Oh memory is never lost it's just recycled! Michael There are many reasons for a life to improve, or be perceived to improve subjectively, and no, doesn't say anything about awakening. Most folks actually see their lives improving, which is what keeps them on the treadmill, but it requires an image of how it was in order to be experienced as better. The moment one forgets that it used to be worse, (or better) it quickly normalizes and we find ourself back at the exact center of our own happy/unhappy continuum. This is just how relative dualistic experience works, and why the only way out is to transcend dualistic experience all together.
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Post by ivory on Jan 17, 2011 23:14:37 GMT -5
Yes, and so while there is a point to be made by saying nobody makes progress toward awakening, it's also true that progress is made toward awakening. Hehe. The progress takes the form of a disillusion of attachments, beliefs, fears, etc, which is effectively the dissolving of the belief in the self through which distraction from, and resistance to, realization occurs. Awakening is not the acquisition of something, and in this sense there is no actual movement toward something, but it is a realization that occurs when the conditions are ripe. It is possible to move toward those helpful conditions. We could call this progress. I enjoy reading your posts, Enigma.
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Post by michaelsees on Jan 18, 2011 10:57:38 GMT -5
There are many reasons for a life to improve, or be perceived to improve subjectively, and no, doesn't say anything about awakening. Most folks actually see their lives improving, which is what keeps them on the treadmill, but it requires an image of how it was in order to be experienced as better. The moment one forgets that it used to be worse, (or better) it quickly normalizes and we find ourself back at the exact center of our own happy/unhappy continuum. This is just how relative dualistic experience works, and why the only way out is to transcend dualistic experience all together. The relative self can never permanently transcend the polarity/duality of the world it lives . Yes you can adopt different frameworks to live in which will help. However as long as you are dragging a body/mind along you still need to deal with this relative world. All I have been working to pass on here is "awakening" will not protect the relative self in anyway. If you wake up and get the flu bug you will be sick for a few days, if your employer lets you go you will be unemployed. Yes the secret to living a authentic awaken life is to wait and see what happens next however this does not mean you sit back on your butt and just wait. You still need to be pro-active if it's a job search or calling a doctor. What real awakening will do for you is to take away "mental suffering" this is no small thing. So you can have no need to suffer while you are seeking employment or becoming well. But the pain will still be felt RM in his last couple of years would cry out at night as the cancer was eating his body. I doubt he could even enter samadhi at that point as the pain was too much and I am sure he would have prefer to be away from it. Also living situations vary a lot. The old story that it's easy to be a monk on the mountain than in the city is true. In my life I have had the pleasure to know many long time Zen folks, mediators etc. When you have your basics taken care of it's quite easy to enter the stillness. The real test come when they need to fend for themselves in crisis. Many fall away from the path at such times never to return. Nonduality is the highest teaching that anyone can adopt. It's the centre of all religions, paths. However the highest vigilance also needs to be paid to this path as it's by far the one with the most slippery slope. Having said all this it's a wonderful path to be on. Remember one thing "there is no free lunch in the relative world" Well unless ZD invites us all over someday Peace Michael
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Post by karen on Jan 18, 2011 11:21:06 GMT -5
$hit getting stirred up and how we deal with is another sign of "progress" in my book.
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Post by jasonl on Jan 18, 2011 12:20:06 GMT -5
That's because the relative self is the duality. Can the relative self be transcended by seeing clearly that both it, and the mind/stream of thought which perpetuate it as an identity, are not in any way real or you? I don't see why not. Who is this "you" that needs to deal with the relative world? The mind, which isn't you? hehe. Awakening is the end of the relative self. The mind can however utilize the conceptual framework of non-duality to "preserve" the notion of being a relative self or "separate thinker". What kind of self respecting mind would want to understand its own non-existence
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Post by jasonl on Jan 18, 2011 12:26:15 GMT -5
Nice karen.
Or put another way, $hit getting stirred up, and allowing that $hit to teach us what we are not (a separate self), is perhaps the most authentic "learning experience" on the path. We already are what we are, its just a matter of understanding what we are not.
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Post by karen on Jan 18, 2011 12:47:11 GMT -5
And this need not even be a conscious understanding. As long as we are noticing the stuff, we are detaching from it. I once felt that feeling like crap on the path meant I was slipping back. But the mere noticing that feeling bad is ineffective somehow rather than just getting involved in the story of how I felt bad seemed to do some good in letting go.
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Post by michaelsees on Jan 18, 2011 12:52:18 GMT -5
That's because the relative self is the duality. Can the relative self be transcended by seeing clearly that both it, and the mind/stream of thought which perpetuate it as an identity, are not in any way real or you? I don't see why not. Who is this "you" that needs to deal with the relative world? The mind, which isn't you? hehe. Awakening is the end of the relative self. The mind can however utilize the conceptual framework of non-duality to "preserve" the notion of being a relative self or "separate thinker". What kind of self respecting mind would want to understand its own non-existence They are only words. My point is this"Awakening" does not end your relative self. Yes you can not truly see who you are for the moment but the mind/ego is still there. This is what I have been "trying" to say in today's posts it's really simple and no need to defend the absolute as that is crazy thinking. Awakening is not the panacea to all your problems. You still need to go about your life taking care but now you have a strong insight into what is that helps and can help a lot depending on how it's used. Still chop wood carry water. The reason I am on this so strong is it came to me that many members may actually be looking at awakening as something quite different than it is. Michael
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Post by jasonl on Jan 18, 2011 13:01:51 GMT -5
Yes and while there need not be conscious understanding, there could be...
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Post by jasonl on Jan 18, 2011 13:15:00 GMT -5
My point is, that it does. By relative self, I do not mean the body.
I might say, that the mind/ego was never real to begin with, and that any notion that mind/ego is still here, is coming from the a stream of thinking arising within You pretending to be you. Not a big deal really, unless it is.
If the mind which is gaining these insights is still masquerading as you then I wonder how useful the insights will be.
Now Im with you here. I find many so called "awakened minds" utilize awakening as a way to hide from emotional pain. If freedom is what you're after, then the willingness to feel pain is your ticket to it. I find the fear of emotional pain to be the number one factor allowing the mind to maintain the illusion that it could somehow possibly be you.
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Post by popee on Jan 18, 2011 13:18:48 GMT -5
Back to progress.
Nis said, "As our spiritual knowledge grows our identification with an individual body-mind diminishes, and our consciousness expands into universal consciousness. The life force continues to act, but its thoughts and actions are no longer limited to an individual. They become the total manifestation. It is like the action of the wind - the wind doesn't blow for any particular individual, but for total manifestation."
I can grasp the intellectual gist of his argument, but he that grasps is the one I'm interested in stepping away from. Easier said than done.
From the quote - "as spiritual knowledge grows" (a verb). And as I clearly do not understand the true nature of his sentiment today, perhaps I might expect to understand it sometime later, once my spiritual knowledge grows?
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Post by jasonl on Jan 18, 2011 13:31:56 GMT -5
I might say, that as spiritual knowledge grows, so does the ability for love to express itself through the human form. Put another way, the mind becomes "selfless", which allows love to blossom. So awakening is not the end of thinking, it is simply the beginning of thinking being guided by the recognition that there truly is nothing separate, even though thought can still make it appear that way.
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Post by michaelsees on Jan 18, 2011 13:37:33 GMT -5
Now Im with you here. I find many so called "awakened minds" utilize awakening as a way to hide from emotional pain. If freedom is what you're after, then the willingness to feel pain is your ticket to it. I find the fear of emotional pain to be the number one factor allowing the mind to maintain the illusion that it could somehow possibly be you. Interesting, You might want to check the link I gave under spiritual teachers for Jed. It's a hour talk. At the end Jed basically says if your life is going well, you have new understanding, things are effecting you less, you see more happy, finally things seem to come together it's Not awakening but a pseudo-awakening but if you are emotionally torn, feel like you are grasping for air, nothing makes sense, the world is going against you, you are sick of teachers and their techniques or insights then the chances are very great you are being awakened. Now for myself these words ring very true.. Michael
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Post by therealfake on Jan 18, 2011 13:46:30 GMT -5
I might say, that as spiritual knowledge grows, so does the ability for love to express itself through the human form. Put another way, the mind becomes "selfless", which allows love to blossom. So awakening is not the end of thinking, it is simply the beginning of thinking being guided by the recognition that there truly is nothing separate, even though thought can still make it appear that way. Yeah, kind of like the ego dominated mind, getting booted out and being replaced with the mind of God.
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