|
Post by michaelsees on Jan 17, 2011 15:35:38 GMT -5
exactly strong thinkers=strong mind= big mess
become as children, with those eyes you can see through the mess children have no idea of what a mess is, it's only the adult that tells them
Michael
|
|
|
Post by ivory on Jan 17, 2011 16:06:51 GMT -5
no no you misunderstood completely. it's the problem with words. agree with yourself the relative self through a true seeing. you need to know that you will have this relative self to deal with until you die. Anyhow you get it or not fine with me. I am getting tired of writing too much to explain too little these days. Michael Sorry Michael. Perhaps I didn't understand what you were saying. I've always thought to turn the ego/mind on itself. Observing the ego/mind at work. How can the ego/mind be transcended if the ego/mind is still believed? It almost sounds like you're saying that insights are irrelevant. Insights...no, just efforts and progress. Progress? Not sure I follow. Progress was the very subject of this thread.
|
|
|
Post by michaelsees on Jan 17, 2011 16:10:40 GMT -5
Sorry Michael. Perhaps I didn't understand what you were saying. np even understanding is grossing overrated imo. peace Michael
|
|
|
Post by eputkonen on Jan 17, 2011 17:01:58 GMT -5
Progress is irrelevant.
|
|
|
Post by therealfake on Jan 17, 2011 17:51:24 GMT -5
By that rule the Buddha was not awake because he said he was awake. (Buddha means the awakened one) To say "I am awake" is not necessarily an egotistical statement...it could simply be a statement of fact (likely mentioned only because it was important to mention it at that point for some reason). Although, I have met people who said they are awakened and clearly were not...so of course, you can't automatically believe everyone. But to say "I am awake" does not automatically mean you are not. It is perhaps a clever saying, but not toally accurate. Enlightenment. Heheh, yeah, that question has a built in assumption, that your not the Buddha, unless your a reincarnate of him.... Sometimes, I think a person has to be careful about what statements were attributed to Buddha. In the life and teaching of the Buddha, true Silence lead to Truth, by avoiding both wordiness and wordlessness, because such silence 'is' truth. To answer a question, with an answer, goes against his Truth/Silence teachings. When one asks, if they are awakened and are confronted with silence for an answer, they look back at the question. They must then realize the dualistic nature of any question. If I have a thought that I am awakened, I must also recognize the thought, that I am not awakened. When you put the 2 thoughts together, you have silence and consequently the truth. Is that what you mean by enlightenment?
|
|
|
Post by klaus on Jan 17, 2011 17:55:47 GMT -5
Just as you know you're awake after sleep without a doubt, you know your'e AWAKE without a doubt.
It's that simple.
|
|
|
Post by michaelsees on Jan 17, 2011 18:27:17 GMT -5
If I have a thought that I am awakened, I must also recognize the thought, that I am not awakened. When you put the 2 thoughts together, you have silence and consequently the truth. Is that what you mean by enlightenment? lol not to pick on you TRF but you do see how silly you sound above right? If I have a thought..TRF it's impossible for you to have a thought to begin with. I am being quite serious do you see how habitually it is to fall away from the truth of things even in just conversation ? No not just you at all most people do. A person that have seen who they are would never ask such a question if I had a thought. This is so very basic to what we are but yet most do not get it. There's no putting thoughts together to make something else. IT just happens. Most people and many teachers on non duality have no clue about awakening but have a lot to say from their ego self cuz tat part makes sense and they can make nice stories and people like nice stories that make sense to them. It keeps their mind calm and they like that part. Then you have a few teachers that will tell you like it is- minus all the ego fluff and needless to say these teachers have few following them. IMO Awakening is overrated. Living a life which is full of fun and amazement beats awakening. Just a life of simple surrender to what happens next which does not nor ever need awakening to happen. Michael
|
|
|
Post by therealfake on Jan 17, 2011 18:55:17 GMT -5
If I have a thought that I am awakened, I must also recognize the thought, that I am not awakened. When you put the 2 thoughts together, you have silence and consequently the truth. Is that what you mean by enlightenment? lol not to pick on you TRF but you do see how silly you sound above right? If I have a thought..TRF it's impossible for you to have a thought to begin with. I am being quite serious do you see how habitually it is to fall away from the truth of things even in just conversation ? No not just you at all most people do. A person that have seen who they are would never ask such a question if I had a thought. This is so very basic to what we are but yet most do not get it. There's no putting thoughts together to make something else. IT just happens. Most people and many teachers on non duality have no clue about awakening but have a lot to say from their ego self cuz tat part makes sense and they can make nice stories and people like nice stories that make sense to them. It keeps their mind calm and they like that part. Then you have a few teachers that will tell you like it is- minus all the ego fluff and needless to say these teachers have few following them. IMO Awakening is overrated. Living a life which is full of fun and amazement beats awakening. Just a life of simple surrender to what happens next which does not nor ever need awakening to happen. Michael lol....yeah, my whole world seems to be made of them. Maybe, I should try to be more 'thought-less', like some of the wiser around here...
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Jan 17, 2011 19:03:03 GMT -5
Ivory: Eric simply meant that insights and realizations can occur, but there is no one who can make progress toward awakening. IOW, you can't make progress toward what you already are. Awakening is the realization that what you ARE is whole and complete already. The idea of attainment is an illusion. Who you ARE is the entire universe, seen and unseen, infinite and whole, unified and complete. How could THAT make any progress in any direction? It simply IS. Awakening is the realization of that.
|
|
|
Post by michaelsees on Jan 17, 2011 19:54:41 GMT -5
lol....yeah, my whole world seems to be made of them. Maybe, I should try to be more 'thought-less', like some of the wiser around here... No need TRF all that is needed ever is to know that all these thoughts are just flowing by you and everyone else. The understanding that none of them originated from you helps a lot. If you let a few land on you and you beginning thinking do not think you are the only one here there are tons of others doing the same thing. The ego/mind wants to make you think they are yours so more thoughts can land and before you know it you have a story going on. No one has a original story ever. Peace Michael
|
|
|
Post by ivory on Jan 17, 2011 20:43:07 GMT -5
Sometimes, I think a person has to be careful about what statements were attributed to Buddha. In the life and teaching of the Buddha, true Silence lead to Truth, by avoiding both wordiness and wordlessness, because such silence 'is' truth. Nobody knows what the buddha truly said, not even the buddhists. IMO, anything that's been passed down thousands of years, regardless of the source, should be questioned. As for silence leading to truth, not that I'm disagreeing, but can you absolutely know that this is true? Unless one has awakened there it's impossible to say what leads to realization. all these thoughts are just flowing by you and everyone else. The understanding that none of them originated from you helps a lot. This is true, TRF, but until this is seen firsthand it will make no difference. By being the watcher of thought you can see that this is the case. Just an endless stream of thought, one thought linking to the next, and the next, ..., no you doing it.
|
|
|
Post by ivory on Jan 17, 2011 20:58:41 GMT -5
Ivory: Eric simply meant that insights and realizations can occur, but there is no one who can make progress toward awakening. IOW, you can't make progress toward what you already are. Awakening is the realization that what you ARE is whole and complete already. The idea of attainment is an illusion. Who you ARE is the entire universe, seen and unseen, infinite and whole, unified and complete. How could THAT make any progress in any direction? It simply IS. Awakening is the realization of that. Thanks ZD. I can only speak for myself in this, but what I've noticed is that the more that I understand the workings of the mind (insight), the less that I get caught up in believing thought. In fact, it seems that what is happening is that belief, or the illusion of self, is falling away.
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Jan 17, 2011 21:04:58 GMT -5
How many of us can honestly expect to awaken? From what I've read, its kind of hit or miss, and there is no guarantee that even devoted aspirants will ever change over. But perhaps progress could be seen as, improvements in day to day living. For me, when I recognized the workings of the ego, my life slowly began to change. When moods, or silly thoughts arise, I step back from them, and they usually go away quickly. I am now much calmer, and I assume the people in my vicinity have noticed my new demeanor. But, this new way of living has pitfalls as well. I often get asked, "you look so deep in thought, what are you thinking about?", and when I say "nothing" (which is often true) they assume I'm just not saying. And when the questions of "do you remember when ...?" is answered by "no", that often brings about concern for my apparent memory loss. I suppose those memories are still somewhere in my brain, but I almost never recall them, so they have mostly faded from my consciousness. So, personally I have found my newer life as being better than the old, but it is not without some side effects. The only way you know your new life is better than your old life is by continually recalling what your old life was like, so I don't share the concern with others over your memory loss. Hehe.
|
|
|
Post by michaelsees on Jan 17, 2011 21:13:14 GMT -5
The only way you know your new life is better than your old life is by continually recalling what your old life was like, so I don't share the concern with others over your memory loss. Hehe. Yes but certainly not necessary a sign of awakening. Your new life can be better by being a born again Christian, Muslin, or just surrendering to God. Oh memory is never lost it's just recycled! Michael
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Jan 17, 2011 22:00:55 GMT -5
Ivory: Eric simply meant that insights and realizations can occur, but there is no one who can make progress toward awakening. IOW, you can't make progress toward what you already are. Awakening is the realization that what you ARE is whole and complete already. The idea of attainment is an illusion. Who you ARE is the entire universe, seen and unseen, infinite and whole, unified and complete. How could THAT make any progress in any direction? It simply IS. Awakening is the realization of that. Thanks ZD. I can only speak for myself in this, but what I've noticed is that the more that I understand the workings of the mind (insight), the less that I get caught up in believing thought. In fact, it seems that what is happening is that belief, or the illusion of self, is falling away. Yes, and so while there is a point to be made by saying nobody makes progress toward awakening, it's also true that progress is made toward awakening. Hehe. The progress takes the form of a disillusion of attachments, beliefs, fears, etc, which is effectively the dissolving of the belief in the self through which distraction from, and resistance to, realization occurs. Awakening is not the acquisition of something, and in this sense there is no actual movement toward something, but it is a realization that occurs when the conditions are ripe. It is possible to move toward those helpful conditions. We could call this progress.
|
|