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Post by nobody on Feb 25, 2012 0:21:32 GMT -5
Dude, I just love your new avatar. It looks like he's asking a question. Seems to go perfectly with this question right here.... I was wondering who are the spiritual teachers here? I saw your post a bit ago and I thought about responding but it made my mind spin. Now that I'm back online and my mind's a bit calmer I'll say some words.. What do you think it means to be a teacher? I have a feeling that your definition of teacher is the exact opposite of what most real teachers actually are. The real teachers aren't going to be attached to a teaching role. Maybe you can take a guess as to why. And most that I have come across aren't all about showing you their enlightenment certificates. I was going to voice my opinion about the Ox Herding thing, but personally, I find maps a distraction from the task at hand. I found that they left me trying to figure out where I was at on the map as opposed to actually making the journey. I think they also reinforce the idea that there's some "one" making progress to get somewhere (all of which are ideas in the first place). I'm was actually surprised that ZD posted that considering he also talks about the inherent trap in checking on progress. Maybe he's not aware that that's what happens, or maybe I was the only dummy that fell for that sorta stuff. I dunno.
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Post by nobody on Feb 25, 2012 0:43:24 GMT -5
I don't know to be honest. It's hard to tell what one's motives are sometimes. Some so-called teachers are self-proclaimed. Others it seemed to have fallen in their lap and express no desire to teach. I went to see Karl Renz once, and he flat out said there was no point in him speaking and had no interest in anyone waking up. He said he just liked to talk and tell jokes.
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Post by enigma on Feb 25, 2012 0:58:41 GMT -5
I was going to voice my opinion about the Ox Herding thing, but personally, I find maps a distraction from the task at hand. I found that they left me trying to figure out where I was at on the map as opposed to actually making the journey. I think they also reinforce the idea that there's some "one" making progress to get somewhere (all of which are ideas in the first place). I agree, which is why I haven't commented on ox herding, and wasn't figuring on commenting about teacher herding either. God knows we have enough distractions around here.
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Post by silence on Feb 25, 2012 1:04:56 GMT -5
I was going to voice my opinion about the Ox Herding thing, but personally, I find maps a distraction from the task at hand. I found that they left me trying to figure out where I was at on the map as opposed to actually making the journey. I think they also reinforce the idea that there's some "one" making progress to get somewhere (all of which are ideas in the first place). I agree, which is why I haven't commented on ox herding, and wasn't figuring on commenting about teacher herding either. God knows we have enough distractions around here. Are we talking about free range or caged Ox here? ;D
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Post by enigma on Feb 25, 2012 1:20:54 GMT -5
I agree, which is why I haven't commented on ox herding, and wasn't figuring on commenting about teacher herding either. God knows we have enough distractions around here. Are we talking about free range or caged Ox here? ;D Well, they can't have a very good quality of life with silly seekers following them around.
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Post by nobody on Feb 25, 2012 1:29:11 GMT -5
I don't know to be honest. It's hard to tell what one's motives are sometimes. Some so-called teachers are self-proclaimed. Others it seemed to have fallen in their lap and express no desire to teach. I went to see Karl Renz once, and he flat out said there was no point in him speaking and had no interest in anyone waking up. He said he just liked to talk and tell jokes. Motives really don't matter. Truth matters. Seems some enlightened people just want to clown around and tell jokes. That's okay but doesn't seem very good for teaching. I guess you could just look at the guy all day. Hehe. At the time when I went to see Karl I was pretty new to the spiritual search so I had no idea what the heck he was doing. I still don't in the absolute sense. But he's the type of teacher who has nothing to offer to the mind. I left pretty pissed off cuz he would just say stuff like, "there's nothing you can do", "you don't exist", he would negate everything you said and render every question you had completely useless. He doesn't show up to teach you nuthin. He mission is to destroy you.
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Post by silence on Feb 25, 2012 1:30:53 GMT -5
Freejoy, there's no scenario in which someone is going to teach you how to make your ideas about enlightenment come true.
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Post by sherry on Feb 25, 2012 2:06:21 GMT -5
seems like everyone who posts (or doesn't post) is a teacher in the sense that something expressed might arouse the interest of the only true teacher - our inner one or sat-guru
when we're ready to explore/digest more, our interest will be drawn by what an apparent other says/writes/does and we will followup appropriately under the guidance of our inner teacher
it could be a very slow process if measured in time
there's no way to gauge progress;to paraphrase ACIM, some of our greatest advances, we have judged as failures and some of our biggest retreats, we have judged as complete success
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Post by enigma on Feb 25, 2012 3:55:07 GMT -5
seems like everyone who posts (or doesn't post) is a teacher in the sense that something expressed might arouse the interest of the only true teacher - our inner one or sat-guru when we're ready to explore/digest more, our interest will be drawn by what an apparent other says/writes/does and we will followup appropriately under the guidance of our inner teacher it could be a very slow process if measured in time there's no way to gauge progress;to paraphrase ACIM, some of our greatest advances, we have judged as failures and some of our biggest retreats, we have judged as complete success My inner teacher has been aroused by that. ;D All seriousness aside, that's how I see it working too. Lets not separate teachers and students. We're NOT separate. (That's today's teaching)
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Post by enigma on Feb 25, 2012 3:56:07 GMT -5
It appears there are a lot of reptiles in this tread. ;D Amphibian, IF you don't mind!
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Post by question on Feb 25, 2012 5:33:31 GMT -5
I was wondering who are the spiritual teachers here? All of these remarks back and forth has got me confused. So I thought the teachers here could present themselves in this tread so we all would know who are the teachers. Thanks Freejoy, the following is just my opinion, but it kinda helps me to sort through the jungle that this forum is. There is obviously a hierarchy on this forum, albeit never openly expressed. And there are some folks here who in their attitude present themselves as teachers but are actually very misleading, so one must be very vigilant. Again, the following is just my opinion: Posts that I will always read and take very seriously: - Zendancer Will usually read, but always remain vigilant: - Enigma - Silence - Klaus Posts that I will read, but remain highly critical because I suspect that they might be fooling themselves: - Stillness - Exactamente - Portto These guys I consider not enlightened, but will read their posts because they are relevant for me, they are honest about their process: - Angela - Mamza - Nobody - Beingist - James - Max Posts I will skip, because I think that they are either fos or, in case that they are not, their posts are so difficult to make sense of that it's a waste of time: - Andrew - Tath - Stardustpilgrim - Therealfake Most of the rest of them is just tagging along, rarely write anything interesting, usually a waste of time to read their posts. edit: Except for Esponja. As I've just learned she isn't here to waste time. She is here a) for support b) to find Truth.
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Post by freddy on Feb 25, 2012 5:42:36 GMT -5
Like the Ox herding levels this scale may be helpful. If you could please rate yourself on this scale as to the level of your consciousness it might be helpful to us. Thank you Is there any benefit to know the consciousness scale of people out there ? Please Freejoy, dont get blinded by the Hawkins scale. It judges only the appearence of people, it cannot judge the own core of being, because this 'core' has no levels. It is a terrible misconception of what enlightenment and consciousness really is. You already scale at 1250+ because consciousness has no levels. Your consciousness cannot rise the scale, because a higher level of consciousness cannot be reached, consciousness is itself perfect, free, at ease and peace. You are that now, you only imagine that you must climb the ladder, you only imagine that you are not enlightened, you only imagine that you are a mortal human being, you only imagine that there a people out there with different levels of consciousness. Stop imagining and look at the world without imagination.
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Post by andrew on Feb 25, 2012 6:26:03 GMT -5
I was wondering who are the spiritual teachers here? All of these remarks back and forth has got me confused. So I thought the teachers here could present themselves in this tread so we all would know who are the teachers. Thanks Freejoy, the following is just my opinion, but it kinda helps me to sort through the jungle that this forum is. There is obviously a hierarchy on this forum, albeit never openly expressed. And there are some folks here who in their attitude present themselves as teachers but are actually very misleading, so one must be very vigilant. Again, the following is just my opinion: Posts that I will always read and take very seriously: - Zendancer Will usually read, but always remain vigilant: - Enigma - Silence - Klaus Posts that I will read, but remain highly critical because I suspect that they might be fooling themselves: - Stillness - Exactamente - Portto These guys I consider not enlightened, but will read their posts because they are relevant for me, they are honest about their process: - Angela - Mamza - Nobody - Beingist - James - Max Posts I will skip, because I think that they are either fos or, in case that they are not, their posts are so difficult to make sense of that it's a waste of time: - Andrew - Tath - Stardustpilgrim - Therealfake Most of the rest of them is just tagging along, rarely write anything interesting, usually a waste of time to read their posts. What ZD suggests is relatively straight forward. If you are pretty sure he is the 'real deal', and you basically want what he has 'got', what do you find hard about following his advice?
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Post by question on Feb 25, 2012 7:09:01 GMT -5
What ZD suggests is relatively straight forward. If you are pretty sure he is the 'real deal', and you basically want what he has 'got', what do you find hard about following his advice? Same old story as always. It's too difficult, I can't maintain the concentration, and the lack of results is extremely demotivating. But I suppose it's not so much a flaw with ATA, many people have great success with it, I guess the problem is simply that I suck big time.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 25, 2012 7:47:01 GMT -5
seems like everyone who posts (or doesn't post) is a teacher in the sense that something expressed might arouse the interest of the only true teacher - our inner one or sat-guruwhen we're ready to explore/digest more, our interest will be drawn by what an apparent other says/writes/does and we will followup appropriately under the guidance of our inner teacher it could be a very slow process if measured in time there's no way to gauge progress;to paraphrase ACIM, some of our greatest advances, we have judged as failures and some of our biggest retreats, we have judged as complete success There was a psychologist back in the '70's (Sheldon Kopp) who wrote some interesting books (interesting, not significant), If You Meet the Buddha on the Road, Kill Him! #2, #3, #4, #5 etc..(he was writing about his own journey)..and he wrote one called Even a Stone Can Be a Teacher. Even a stone can be a teacher. ............Real teachers make you thirsty. A teacher knows when to slow you down, when to give you a kick in the ass. When you're stuck, helps you get unstuck. When you need confounding, will confound you. A teacher can answer a question, the second before you ask it. A teacher can leave you in awe. A teacher can leave you exasperated beyond belief. One day you never want to see your teacher again, next day you mourn the day he hasn't died yet. A teacher knows you better than you know yourself. Having given you all the necessary tools, or means to make tools or find tools, a teacher will walk you up to a precipice...and say, cross it, the way continues on the other side. A teacher will make the impossible seem possible. A teacher will lead you to the (next) right question. A teacher will not take one step, for you. A teacher can give you caution signs for conditions ahead (without telling you he has given you a caution sign). A teacher is a pointer. You have to keep up with a teacher, he doesn't wait. Sometimes admission is the next right question.......and you don't go back until you find that question. A teacher's heart is as big as the universe, because he's been where you are. A teacher is ruthless love. A teacher is a midwife. A teacher is someone who you know, knows something you need to know, like you need your next breath. A teacher is a map-maker. A teacher is someone you recognize that has the next step, knows how to get you to the next step. You have to know what you need, or no teacher, nobody, can help. A teacher isn't responsible for you. A teacher is a gardener, knows when to water, when to spread fertilizer, when to hoe, when to plant, when to weed, what to weed, who to weed. A teacher perpetuates the path, in only one manner, keeping the path straight through interior work, through attention and awareness. The ordinary conceptual mind cannot keep the path straight. A teacher is a stone wall in the face of a poor student. A teacher offers a choice, life or death. The student can respond on the basis of pain/pleasure-known-past, this is ego-choice and leads to death. Or the student can respond on the basis of future, wish-unknown-awakening, this is essence-choice and leads to life. sdp
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