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Post by andrew on Feb 25, 2012 12:26:52 GMT -5
My computer is behaving strangely, every time I go to 'page 2' it logs me out so I am having to reply on page but I then cant see exactly what you said. I'm the same. There has to be the potential of reward in order for there to be effort. I have to see clearly WHY I am doing something in order to do it. There has to be some kind of point/purpose to it. Out of interest then, what reward would you be willing to put a lot of effort into achieving? Happiness? Nirvana? Being present? Peace? No more thought? I don't know what nirvana is. I don't care about 'being present' and 'no more thought'. I'm not sure about happiness and peace, I'd say that safety is much more important to me... and really the source of feeling safe to me is money, if I have a lot of money then I feel safe. No, the reason I bother with this is that I'm very competetive/neurotic, to me the world is a jungle. So if someone says something that questions me then I feel threatened and must have what they have or at least I must crush them. I tried to intellectually crush this enlightenment thing but I figured that they really do have something that I don't have and so I must have it, but I can't, because I don't even know what it is that they have and they won't tell me in a way that it makes any sense. And so the circle is now closed and you can see why I hate this whole nonduality business, all it did to me is it increased my neurosis. I've always hated myself and now I hate myself even more... thanks spiritualteachers.org. I know this sounds f*cked up, but that's how I think, just being honest s'all. I don't understand/believe people who say that they are looking for Truth and Peace and whatnot, I think that's total bs, but hey maybe they do, who knows, but I'd bet that the majority of seekers are really seeking for similar reasons as mine. (That is, of course, unless they actually did have an awakening experience, in that case the situation would be entirely different.) Your answer here is appreciated. I am not into the idea of 'Truth' but I do appreciate 'truthfulness' and your answer felt very 'truthful' to me. I agree that all people are really seeking the same thing, though I think we all code our interest in different ways. I can definitely relate to the safety bit, and although Im not interested in having more money exactly, I am interested in living a life in which I dont experience the limitation of having the thought 'I cant do that' or even 'what the hell am I going to do now?!''. So I would definitely say that I am interested in living in security, being secure, feeling secure. I think there are tools and approaches that could help you achieve your goal, but they probably wouldnt have much to do with 'enlightenment' or 'self-realization' or 'Truth'. Turning to these kinds of approaches and tools can feel like a bit of a let down, or a come down, if we have been focused for a while on the somewhat grandiose notion of 'enlightenment', but actually they still take us to the same 'place'. In my opinion, you will get what you want coz you are far too clever to not figure out a way of getting it.
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Post by silence on Feb 25, 2012 12:28:48 GMT -5
What ZD suggests is relatively straight forward. If you are pretty sure he is the 'real deal', and you basically want what he has 'got', what do you find hard about following his advice? Same old story as always. It's too difficult, I can't maintain the concentration, and the lack of results is extremely demotivating. But I suppose it's not so much a flaw with ATA, many people have great success with it, I guess the problem is simply that I suck big time. You strike me as someone who won't let go of the inkling that he might just be fooling himself into his own imagination and wants proof before really hearing anything.
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Post by silence on Feb 25, 2012 12:32:19 GMT -5
Q: You don't "suck big time." You're perfectly manifesting THIS each moment of every day. Remember, you can't screw up being what you ARE. You've been contemplating the existential issues discussed in this forum for many years, and whether you realize it or not, this, alone, can potentially lead to big surprises. Remember the monk who could never penetrate the Mu koan? He spent twenty years contemplating the issue without success. He finally concluded that he was just too stupid to "get it," so he left his monastery and gave himself the job of cleaning up a local cemetary where several illustrious sages were intombed. In a sense, he just gave up trying to understand, and resigned himself to his self-imposed task. One day he was sweeping the grounds when a small pebble bounced off the bamboo fence around the cemetary. When he heard that sound, his mind collapsed like a house of cards, and he "got everything," the Mu koan and hundreds of others as well. He subsequently became a famous Zen Master. Each body/mind is different, and although it is impossible to predict what will happen, I would be willing to bet that you will eventually find whatever it is that you want to know. That's like lottery. An idiot monk who gets lucky. Your story never helps anyone, how could it? It's a terrible example really, you have to take into account all those who wasted their lifes in pursuit of enlightenment and never attained it. Maybe you are being a bit hard on yourself there Q. It could just be that your mind is naturally very agile and you arent suited to that kind of discipline/practice. Or maybe you just cant really see the benefit of it so there isnt enough motivation. Or maybe a bit of both. In the end, what we really commit to is what we are really interested in. There has to be a good reason in order to commit. Yoga is really just ATA. Have you been down that route? Even just meditating on the breath is ATA. Sorry, but I agree. It's like I said a couple of months ago to ZD, I operate on the basis of effort-->reward. If I don't get rewarded then I won't put in any effort, why should I waste my time if there is no benefit? I spent a lot of time meditating, ATA-ing, pranayama, you name it. Guess what I got out of it? Nothing. The only way I had some success is by thinking, I solved a couple of riddles by thinking, but guess what they say it's worth? Nothing. The major clue is both in ZD's story and your own experience. "he just gave up trying to understand". The effort-->reward paradigm is about as useful here as using a nail gun to cook dinner.
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Post by silence on Feb 25, 2012 12:38:50 GMT -5
My computer is behaving strangely, every time I go to 'page 2' it logs me out so I am having to reply on page but I then cant see exactly what you said. I'm the same. There has to be the potential of reward in order for there to be effort. I have to see clearly WHY I am doing something in order to do it. There has to be some kind of point/purpose to it. Out of interest then, what reward would you be willing to put a lot of effort into achieving? Happiness? Nirvana? Being present? Peace? No more thought? I don't know what nirvana is. I don't care about 'being present' and 'no more thought'. I'm not sure about happiness and peace, I'd say that safety is much more important to me... and really the source of feeling safe to me is money, if I have a lot of money then I feel safe. No, the reason I bother with this is that I'm very competetive/neurotic, to me the world is a jungle. So if someone says something that questions me then I feel threatened and must have what they have or at least I must crush them. I tried to intellectually crush this enlightenment thing but I figured that they really do have something that I don't have and so I must have it, but I can't, because I don't even know what it is that they have and they won't tell me in a way that it makes any sense. And so the circle is now closed and you can see why I hate this whole nonduality business, all it did to me is it increased my neurosis. I've always hated myself and now I hate myself even more... thanks spiritualteachers.org. I know this sounds f*cked up, but that's how I think, just being honest s'all. I don't understand/believe people who say that they are looking for Truth and Peace and whatnot, I think that's total bs, but hey maybe they do, who knows, but I'd bet that the majority of seekers are really seeking for similar reasons as mine. (That is, of course, unless they actually did have an awakening experience, in that case the situation would be entirely different.) Your honesty is very refreshing Question and I'm sure you're not the only one looking for a feeling of safety. The difficulty is that the safety you're looking for lies in being able to make yourself more vulnerable than you could ever imagine. I don't mean doing a vision quest in Alaska with no clothes but just really letting down all of the mental defense systems that are obviously operating. Laying down your sword and acknowledging there's so much more than the tiny bit that's squeezed into the realm of the intellect.
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Post by runstill on Feb 25, 2012 13:08:04 GMT -5
Holy moley thars a sh*t storm a brewing in this thread. Question a lot of folks have the same thoughts you do including myself. You think having money will make you safe and comfortable your right.
You live in one have the wealthiest countries in the world and your very smart I believe you speak two languages. I don't think having enough money is a big issue for you.
Lets talk money/safe thing, Steve Jobs was very smart and he had more money than god, he should have lived another 50 yrs he had access to the best medical care on earth, but the dumb a*s didn't listen to his doctors he treated him self with supplements for christ sake. He died a horrible death with cancer eating him from the inside out. Money isn't the end all.
The best we can hope for is to live long enough to make it to the nursing home and some body that doesn't speak our language feeding us because we're to feeble to do it our self. Pretty bleak.
We can quit non-duality inquiry and go back to the church of our choice and hang our hat on that whole thing. Yew, I think I rather pound nails in my head.
The bottom line there is no better option than 'THIS' !
It seems almost non-volitional lol...
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Post by enigma on Feb 25, 2012 13:29:28 GMT -5
What ZD suggests is relatively straight forward. If you are pretty sure he is the 'real deal', and you basically want what he has 'got', what do you find hard about following his advice? Same old story as always. It's too difficult, I can't maintain the concentration, and the lack of results is extremely demotivating. But I suppose it's not so much a flaw with ATA, many people have great success with it, I guess the problem is simply that I suck big time. Hehe. Since we're making personal assessments, I have one about you. You have a very strong mental focus, but you also have a good mind, by which I mean one that doesn't function primarily by creating layered structures but by looking deeply into the obvious. As such, you don't become a spiritual encyclopedia as most intellectually oriented peeps do, which is why your conclusions often ring true from my perspective. I also don't see much in the way of unconscious nonsense going on, so if you have any giraffes in your back yard at all, they're just baby ones, and you don't seem to feel the need to put lipstick on them. All this puts you ahead of the game, but it's also a pretty unique dynamic, and the unique way you're approaching it seems perfect. I don't think following some approach of ATA or noticing or seeing or whatever is right for you. I think your way is right for you. (Obviously, just my opinion)
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Post by silence on Feb 25, 2012 13:33:22 GMT -5
Same old story as always. It's too difficult, I can't maintain the concentration, and the lack of results is extremely demotivating. But I suppose it's not so much a flaw with ATA, many people have great success with it, I guess the problem is simply that I suck big time. The way I see it question is enlightened is only granted when one is worthy. One has to be worthy of Gods Grace. Have you considered drugs? I mentioned this in another conversation but that sense of guilt/worthiness seems very pervasive among most seekers. 'I wont feel worthy unless i do xyz'. 'I haven't suffered enough yet to be worthy to surrender' etc. etc. So comes the role of the practices. If nothing else, to make you feel worthy enough to finally breathe out and let go.
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Post by question on Feb 25, 2012 13:33:52 GMT -5
Same old story as always. It's too difficult, I can't maintain the concentration, and the lack of results is extremely demotivating. But I suppose it's not so much a flaw with ATA, many people have great success with it, I guess the problem is simply that I suck big time. The way I see it question is enlightened is only granted when one is worthy. One has to be worthy of Gods Grace. Have you considered drugs? Well, I don't believe in god or worthiness. I suspect that some simply get lucky and some don't. Or maybe there's some brain shenanigans going on, who knows... No, I don't take drugs. I enjoy remaining as sober as I can and I enjoy being productive. edit: I agree with Silence. If you think that you're not worthy then you've let yourself be brainwashed. The world is a jungle, there are no rules, take what you can get and don't look back, just make sure that you don't get caught.
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Post by question on Feb 25, 2012 13:39:25 GMT -5
Same old story as always. It's too difficult, I can't maintain the concentration, and the lack of results is extremely demotivating. But I suppose it's not so much a flaw with ATA, many people have great success with it, I guess the problem is simply that I suck big time. You strike me as someone who won't let go of the inkling that he might just be fooling himself into his own imagination and wants proof before really hearing anything. I've no idea what you're saying. I agree with all your nondual talk, but you're saying that there is an important further step to be taken. Then I ask what that step is and all you guys then say is noise to my ears. I ask you clear questions begging you to clarify and you're still only producing noise. Like in this realization debate with Enigma. So much talk wasted on that topic and not one bit of clear information. Sounds to me like psychobabble. You're talking like a politician, hiding behind safe truisms. What exactly are you recommending that one can not only nod to but actually somehow execute?
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Post by nobody on Feb 25, 2012 13:44:25 GMT -5
You want a guarantee? Drugs are about as close a guarantee your going to get. Overdose and you get to go back into the void or start over or go to the astro-plane. All appear better options than this world. One might stay enlightened too. I will be very happy for you freejoy when you drop your nonsensical ideas about enlightenment.
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Post by enigma on Feb 25, 2012 13:46:13 GMT -5
I agree, which is why I haven't commented on ox herding, and wasn't figuring on commenting about teacher herding either. God knows we have enough distractions around here. I also agree, and after I saw how peeps responded to the ox-herding pics, I realized that presenting that info turned out to be more of a disservice than a service. I can't even remember why I posted it, but I think it was to say that even oneness and enlightenment have to be left behind. What's important is THIS, NOW. Which is a good 'service'. Hehe. I like Hawkins, but his calibration of consciousness scale has a similar effect on peeps. The tendency for the non-person to rate themselves on that scale is too strong, and even Hawkins voiced some regrets at one point about creating it. Of course, it all serves.
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Post by zendancer on Feb 25, 2012 13:46:21 GMT -5
Same old story as always. It's too difficult, I can't maintain the concentration, and the lack of results is extremely demotivating. But I suppose it's not so much a flaw with ATA, many people have great success with it, I guess the problem is simply that I suck big time. Hehe. Since we're making personal assessments, I have one about you. You have a very strong mental focus, but you also have a good mind, by which I mean one that doesn't function primarily by creating layered structures but by looking deeply into the obvious. As such, you don't become a spiritual encyclopedia as most intellectually oriented peeps do, which is why your conclusions often ring true from my perspective. I also don't see much in the way of unconscious nonsense going on, so if you have any giraffes in your back yard at all, they're just baby ones, and you don't seem to feel the need to put lipstick on them. All this puts you ahead of the game, but it's also a pretty unique dynamic, and the unique way you're approaching it seems perfect. I don't think following some approach of ATA or noticing or seeing or whatever is right for you. I think your way is right for you. (Obviously, just my opinion) I agree wholeheartedly. The qualia thread made it obvious that you are very close to the fire. Now, if we can just find a match.......;D
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Post by angela on Feb 25, 2012 13:51:51 GMT -5
question, you say: I've no idea what you're saying. I agree with all your nondual talk, but you're saying that there is an important further step to be taken. Then I ask what that step is and all you guys then say is noise to my ears. I ask you clear questions begging you to clarify and you're still only producing noise. Like in this realization debate with Enigma. So much talk wasted on that topic and not one bit of clear information. and while i am pretty sure that this was mentioned in another thread, i am going to bring it up again. when the ships from the white man's land, columbus and the crew, showed up in the americas, the indigenous population could not actually see them on the horizon. they had no CONTEXT for ships, coming in from the water, as they'd never seen them before. it took a shaman, some guy who'd done some mushrooms probably and was rather used to things being out-of-context, in order to let the local folks know there was something new to be seen. in my experience, and i can only speak from my experience, there is this way by which we organize our minds around the known. and we play around in the known, investigating and whatnot. engima is dead on when he says you have a brilliant mind, question. you have a very groovy way of logic that is quite pragmatic, and practical. but for my experience, i saw several things over time pop up in my investigations that i didn't have any context for whereby it was almost physically painful to try to orient them into my understanding..... i was just so clueless, searching in structures and orientations from my past, to try to help me to gauge this new thing. but the problem was whatever the new thing was, i had no way of doing that, because, in a sense.... they were "mind blowing" and yet, because of that fierce reliance on the known, you are unable to consider any possibilities that don't fit your context, that don't fit the known if your universe. i am not talking about "woo woo" and all that. i agree with zd, those things have a place, but also, for some folks, they don't have a place at all. all i see that prevents you from feeling a bit more, um, peaceful.... is the playfulness or curiosity of a child, whereby you are willing to imagine/consider possibilities outside your normal scope of things. i see someone who has this brilliant mind, and relies on it to the exclusion of all else, and is so comfortable with the workings there, so cozy with the ease with which you can navigate from there, that it becomes an egoic prison. please consider, deeply, from the most quiet part of yourself.... if, in fact, there are ships on the horizon that you could be blind to, because they don't fit into what you are used to, and in fact may not even be visible by the same means you are used to seeing. beyond that, i want to take a moment and thank you for your mind. it may be fierce, but i admire it greatly.
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Post by esponja on Feb 25, 2012 13:53:52 GMT -5
I was wondering who are the spiritual teachers here? All of these remarks back and forth has got me confused. So I thought the teachers here could present themselves in this tread so we all would know who are the teachers. Thanks Freejoy, the following is just my opinion, but it kinda helps me to sort through the jungle that this forum is. There is obviously a hierarchy on this forum, albeit never openly expressed. And there are some folks here who in their attitude present themselves as teachers but are actually very misleading, so one must be very vigilant. Again, the following is just my opinion: Posts that I will always read and take very seriously: - Zendancer Will usually read, but always remain vigilant: - Enigma - Silence - Klaus Posts that I will read, but remain highly critical because I suspect that they might be fooling themselves: - Stillness - Exactamente - Portto These guys I consider not enlightened, but will read their posts because they are relevant for me, they are honest about their process: - Angela - Mamza - Nobody - Beingist - James - Max Posts I will skip, because I think that they are either fos or, in case that they are not, their posts are so difficult to make sense of that it's a waste of time: - Andrew - Tath - Stardustpilgrim - Therealfake Most of the rest of them is just tagging along, rarely write anything interesting, usually a waste of time to read their posts. Erm I'm not here to waste time, here a) for support b) to find Truth.
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Post by esponja on Feb 25, 2012 13:57:46 GMT -5
What ZD suggests is relatively straight forward. If you are pretty sure he is the 'real deal', and you basically want what he has 'got', what do you find hard about following his advice? Same old story as always. It's too difficult, I can't maintain the concentration, and the lack of results is extremely demotivating. But I suppose it's not so much a flaw with ATA, many people have great success with it, I guess the problem is simply that I suck big time. Yes that's what I find too. I don't think you (or I) suck though, thinking is a Hard habit to break!
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