|
Post by silence on Feb 25, 2012 13:58:11 GMT -5
I've no idea what you're saying. I agree with all your nondual talk, but you're saying that there is an important further step to be taken. Then I ask what that step is and all you guys then say is noise to my ears. I ask you clear questions begging you to clarify and you're still only producing noise. Like in this realization debate with Enigma. So much talk wasted on that topic and not one bit of clear information. Okay. Very plainly.. you can not think your way out of it. The clarity you're looking for or whatever it is you're looking for won't be had in either your own thoughts or the thoughts being conveyed here on the forum. It won't be found in 'this means that so logically therefor etc. etc.' type conclusions. The lasting clarity anyway that is. So if you want a next step, let all your thoughts about it just be as they are for a while. Just enjoy confusion without an incessant need to figure it all out. Here's my input on the realization debate. Forget how the realization happens. If you have to go back and remember why or how you know what you realized or retrace your memory or conclusions to 'get it' again, you've just been playing in the pool of mind. You know you've realized many things in your life, don't throw the whole thing into doubt now. Sounds to me like psychobabble. You're talking like a politician, hiding behind safe truisms. What exactly are you recommending that one can not only nod to but actually somehow execute? I'm not sure what you're asking. You want safety and the mind seems to offer it. Your ideas about being a separate entity that must fight through the jungle with your wits alone seems to be the safest option. How safe are you really? Could it be true that the issue of safety itself is misconceived? That perhaps you, not the idea of you has been safe all along. That perhaps you don't actually need some master plan to find safety but rather a way to allow yourself to totally collapse and see your ideas about vulnerability for what they are. Since you're so action oriented, here's something you can do if you insist. The other day I was down on Fremont St. (basically a smaller version of the strip here in Vegas). There was a guy in a tiny bikini and high heels just walking around embarrassed out of his mind with people laughing at him. Go do this.
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Feb 25, 2012 13:59:26 GMT -5
Q: You don't "suck big time." You're perfectly manifesting THIS each moment of every day. Remember, you can't screw up being what you ARE. You've been contemplating the existential issues discussed in this forum for many years, and whether you realize it or not, this, alone, can potentially lead to big surprises. Remember the monk who could never penetrate the Mu koan? He spent twenty years contemplating the issue without success. He finally concluded that he was just too stupid to "get it," so he left his monastery and gave himself the job of cleaning up a local cemetary where several illustrious sages were intombed. In a sense, he just gave up trying to understand, and resigned himself to his self-imposed task. One day he was sweeping the grounds when a small pebble bounced off the bamboo fence around the cemetary. When he heard that sound, his mind collapsed like a house of cards, and he "got everything," the Mu koan and hundreds of others as well. He subsequently became a famous Zen Master. Each body/mind is different, and although it is impossible to predict what will happen, I would be willing to bet that you will eventually find whatever it is that you want to know. That's like lottery. An idiot monk who gets lucky. Your story never helps anyone, how could it? It's a terrible example really, you have to take into account all those who wasted their lifes in pursuit of enlightenment and never attained it. Maybe you are being a bit hard on yourself there Q. It could just be that your mind is naturally very agile and you arent suited to that kind of discipline/practice. Or maybe you just cant really see the benefit of it so there isnt enough motivation. Or maybe a bit of both. In the end, what we really commit to is what we are really interested in. There has to be a good reason in order to commit. Yoga is really just ATA. Have you been down that route? Even just meditating on the breath is ATA. Sorry, but I agree. It's like I said a couple of months ago to ZD, I operate on the basis of effort-->reward. If I don't get rewarded then I won't put in any effort, why should I waste my time if there is no benefit? I spent a lot of time meditating, ATA-ing, pranayama, you name it. Guess what I got out of it? Nothing. The only way I had some success is by thinking, I solved a couple of riddles by thinking, but guess what they say it's worth? Nothing. I would say there's no sharp dividing line between thinking and realizing, though in the spiritual world there is a strong bias against the former because thought is viewed as the problem and so is rejected. It's thought structures that constitute the problem and which are being collapsed, and a contemplative focus is likely required. Don't beat me if it's not helpful, by my way was always to form a contemplative focus on the basis of an insatiable curiosity, and then to bring it all to a sudden halt and simply look. It was not a meditative practice, it was, and still is, a way of life. It's how I fix my car and my computer and solve all problems in my practical life. It's how I post on forums. Thinking is not a problem. Falling into river and getting dashed against the rocks is.
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Feb 25, 2012 14:03:35 GMT -5
My computer is behaving strangely, every time I go to 'page 2' it logs me out so I am having to reply on page but I then cant see exactly what you said. God is trying to tell you something. Listen up! ;D
|
|
|
Post by andrew on Feb 25, 2012 14:05:58 GMT -5
That's like lottery. An idiot monk who gets lucky. Your story never helps anyone, how could it? It's a terrible example really, you have to take into account all those who wasted their lifes in pursuit of enlightenment and never attained it. Sorry, but I agree. It's like I said a couple of months ago to ZD, I operate on the basis of effort-->reward. If I don't get rewarded then I won't put in any effort, why should I waste my time if there is no benefit? I spent a lot of time meditating, ATA-ing, pranayama, you name it. Guess what I got out of it? Nothing. The only way I had some success is by thinking, I solved a couple of riddles by thinking, but guess what they say it's worth? Nothing. I would say there's no sharp dividing line between thinking and realizing, though in the spiritual world there is a strong bias against the former because thought is viewed as the problem and so is rejected. It's thought structures that constitute the problem and which are being collapsed, and a contemplative focus is likely required. Don't beat me if it's not helpful, by my way was always to form a contemplative focus on the basis of an insatiable curiosity, and then to bring it all to a sudden halt and simply look. It was not a meditative practice, it was, and still is, a way of life. It's how I fix my car and my computer and solve all problems in my practical life. It's how I post on forums. Thinking is not a problem. Falling into river and getting dashed against the rocks is. When you read a message on the forum, what are you looking at exactly?
|
|
|
Post by andrew on Feb 25, 2012 14:06:26 GMT -5
My computer is behaving strangely, every time I go to 'page 2' it logs me out so I am having to reply on page but I then cant see exactly what you said. God is trying to tell you something. Listen up! ;D I wondered that myself!
|
|
|
Post by silence on Feb 25, 2012 14:07:26 GMT -5
That's like lottery. An idiot monk who gets lucky. Your story never helps anyone, how could it? It's a terrible example really, you have to take into account all those who wasted their lifes in pursuit of enlightenment and never attained it. Sorry, but I agree. It's like I said a couple of months ago to ZD, I operate on the basis of effort-->reward. If I don't get rewarded then I won't put in any effort, why should I waste my time if there is no benefit? I spent a lot of time meditating, ATA-ing, pranayama, you name it. Guess what I got out of it? Nothing. The only way I had some success is by thinking, I solved a couple of riddles by thinking, but guess what they say it's worth? Nothing. I would say there's no sharp dividing line between thinking and realizing, though in the spiritual world there is a strong bias against the former because thought is viewed as the problem and so is rejected. It's thought structures that constitute the problem and which are being collapsed, and a contemplative focus is likely required. Don't beat me if it's not helpful, by my way was always to form a contemplative focus on the basis of an insatiable curiosity, and then to bring it all to a sudden halt and simply look. It was not a meditative practice, it was, and still is, a way of life. It's how I fix my car and my computer and solve all problems in my practical life. It's how I post on forums. Thinking is not a problem. Falling into river and getting dashed against the rocks is. What?! No enlightened powers to fix your car?
|
|
|
Post by esponja on Feb 25, 2012 14:07:43 GMT -5
My computer is behaving strangely, every time I go to 'page 2' it logs me out so I am having to reply on page but I then cant see exactly what you said. God is trying to tell you something. Listen up! ;D[/quote Don't laugh, but I just tried to quote &post something and computer froze, it was a bit rubbish anyway...I aways think it's a sign not to post it when it happens lol!
|
|
|
Post by nobody on Feb 25, 2012 14:08:17 GMT -5
Are you claiming teachership? Freejoy, I think everyone here IS being a teacher to you. You have questions, and in response they are telling you that your questions aren't relevant to enlightenment. They are trying to help you get rid of some baggage. From here it's blatantly obvious that they are teaching you. For what it's worth, I think all those that you listed earlier would be good to listen to. Perhaps you could find one or two that you resonate with (or like) and, well, do whatever it is that a student would do...
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Feb 25, 2012 14:09:20 GMT -5
lol @ Questions list ... and riddle solvings ... no wonder you're stuck in purgatory .. hehe lol @ freejoy .... dude, seriously? are you just playing dumb, or is it not an act? you seem sincere about your search ... but it seems like you're 'flailing aimlessly' though. Stop being a coward like everyone else. Don't make the mistake of going through the first 'woo woo' door, and stopping there. Knowing what to do is simple really ... doing it however .... incredibly difficult. Annihilation ... or bust. But very, very few succeed, why? Because they're cowards essentially. The price is too steep. Do yourself a favor ... leave this forum, and don't ever come back. No one here has a clue. They are incapable of pointing you where you want to go. The only one who had even the foggiest idea about what's going on got banned, that should tell you all you need to know about this place. I still get a good laugh about "advanced forum" ... LOL ... yeah, in the same way arithmetic class is 'advanced' over pre-school numbers class. lol. Go, go, go far away. lol. go find a geometry class, then algebra, calculus, trig .... lol Just for the record, I'm the one who told tath about Dzogchen...... ..... ... ... ... ;D ... ... ... ... ... ... ... sdp I don't know whether to laugh or cry. ;D
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Feb 25, 2012 14:14:27 GMT -5
In my opinion, you will get what you want coz you are far too clever to not figure out a way of getting it. HA! I agree.
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Feb 25, 2012 14:17:25 GMT -5
"he just gave up trying to understand". The effort-->reward paradigm is about as useful here as using a nail gun to cook dinner. Is that why my dinner always ends up all over the kitchen?!
|
|
|
Post by esponja on Feb 25, 2012 14:24:53 GMT -5
I agree, which is why I haven't commented on ox herding, and wasn't figuring on commenting about teacher herding either. God knows we have enough distractions around here. I also agree, and after I saw how peeps responded to the ox-herding pics, I realized that presenting that info turned out to be more of a disservice than a service. I can't even remember why I posted it, but I think it was to say that even oneness and enlightenment have to be left behind. What's important is THIS, NOW. Well I quite enjoyed a conversation with others going through the same (and with no disrespect intended it was nice not to have the 'enlightened' ones join in on that). I'd say it's only a distraction if you dwell on it too much. ....I've seen far worse distractions here lately.
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Feb 25, 2012 14:25:16 GMT -5
Hehe. Since we're making personal assessments, I have one about you. You have a very strong mental focus, but you also have a good mind, by which I mean one that doesn't function primarily by creating layered structures but by looking deeply into the obvious. As such, you don't become a spiritual encyclopedia as most intellectually oriented peeps do, which is why your conclusions often ring true from my perspective. I also don't see much in the way of unconscious nonsense going on, so if you have any giraffes in your back yard at all, they're just baby ones, and you don't seem to feel the need to put lipstick on them. All this puts you ahead of the game, but it's also a pretty unique dynamic, and the unique way you're approaching it seems perfect. I don't think following some approach of ATA or noticing or seeing or whatever is right for you. I think your way is right for you. (Obviously, just my opinion) I agree wholeheartedly. The qualia thread made it obvious that you are very close to the fire. Now, if we can just find a match.......;D HA! Q is a challenge to keep up with intellectually. Sometimes I'm willing to 'go there' as best I can, but usually not. I'm guessing he needs somebody to roll up their sleeves and really explore that focus with him.
|
|
|
Post by question on Feb 25, 2012 14:29:06 GMT -5
Erm I'm not here to waste time, here a) for support b) to find Truth. Oops, sorry about that. I editet my list. Hope you're happy now.
|
|
|
Post by nobody on Feb 25, 2012 14:35:21 GMT -5
Aah man, first popee, now freejoy's gone too.
I wonder if Tat is making his students delete their account.
|
|