roscod
Junior Member
Posts: 53
|
Post by roscod on Sept 8, 2024 10:13:41 GMT -5
I grew up near the city of Fremantle in Western Australia. During the late 1970's, when I was finishing high school, Fremantle was a major centre for followers of Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, who later became Osho. Outside of Poona in India, Fremantle was the largest collection of what us locals called "orange people" globally.
Later, Bhagwan changed his name to Osho, and the community set up in Antelope, Oregon, in the US precipitating all sorts of mayhem, and leading to Osho being charged with tax evasion and so on. It is a pretty well known story and there is a quite compelling documentary on Netflix called "Wild Wild West". it seems that after the move to Antelope, Osha became more and more removed from the group, taking a vow of silence and making fewer and fewer public appearances, while Prem Sheila and others battled for control and power in the group.
As a teenager in Freo (the locals name for Fremantle, following the Aussie tradition of shortening names and putting an -o on the end) the orange people were both fascinating and intimidating. They were irreverent, they took drugs, they indulged in casual sex (lots of it) and were generally seen as outrageous hedonists by the conservative Fremantle population. They also started numerous businesses, some of which have lasted to this day, and were very conspicuous due to their orange/saffron clothing. There was more to them than meets the eye.
Osho, prior to becoming a guru and leader of a so-called cult, was an academic and scholar of Vedic philosophy. There is no doubting his intellect and understanding of the Hindu scriptures.
So, bearing in mind that we should not have any bias towards pleasure or pain, but treat them equally, and the so-called "left-hand path of tantra' is as valid as the more conventional tradition, how do most people here view Osho? Was he an enlightened master with an unconventional approach? Was he a charlatan? Was he somewhere in between? I've read some of his works, and he certainly had an intellectual handle on advaita. Was he the real deal or not? I'd love to hear people's views.
|
|
|
|
Post by zazeniac on Sept 8, 2024 13:18:58 GMT -5
Good question. Maybe. Who knows? Does it matter now. Is he still around? Words from my past harken. "Judge a tree by its fruit." Welcome to our forum.
|
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Sept 8, 2024 17:14:56 GMT -5
I've seen maybe 3 or 4 Osho vids, and that's the extent of my knowledge of him other than having seen a few minutes of the doc you mentioned. Sometimes people make it very clear when they speak that they are engaging in various kinds of deception. Osho seems to me to be a showman, for sure. Someone who cultivated an image for various material purposes. But, in terms of the core of what he was saying, I detected no lies. Maybe someone could post him saying something that could change my mind on that. Dunno' for sure. There really is no existential inference to be drawn from his impetus to try to draw a crowd.  Other than, perhaps he was at times, and to some extent, careless of various unexpected consequences. But those consequences are material in nature, while the existential truth is quite sideways to that: perfect truth isn't always going to lead to a perfected outcome, according to the laws and morals of the society in which it is spoken about. |
|
|
|
Post by andrew on Sept 8, 2024 17:33:33 GMT -5
The question you raised about Osho is one that we have discussed many times, in relation to many different teachers. What does it mean to be a self-realized entity, and how do we categorize that? Is it by their words alone? Is it their behavior? How do we account for individuality/personality within that? How do we put Niz, UG Krishnamurti, Eckhart Tolle, Byron Katie, Mooji etc in the same category, when they are all really quite different?
The way I see it, the 'self realized entity' is an archetype. Just as there are archetypes of warriors, and magicians, and explorers etc. Personally, I'd say that Niz and Ramana are 2 of the best examples of individuals that adhere to the self-realized archetype. Then there are many others that don't fit the archetype so well, but still have a huge amount to offer people, through their teaching, their message, and their embodiment of spiritual growth. For me, Byron Katie springs to mind as an example. I believe that many of these highly regarded spiritual folks have a lot to offer, even if they aren't a great archetypical fit.
How well does Osho fit the archetype? I think...kind of, but he's not Niz or Ramana. I really do like a lot of what he said though, particularly when he talked about his 'Sannyasins' (which are perhaps the orange people you mentioned?). And in videos I've watched him, he does seem to me to 'emit' a purity of consciousness at times. So I'm a fan of what he brought to the table, but he's also not someone I would say.....'Oh, you really must go and read Osho and watch his videos'.
|
|
|
|
Post by inavalan on Sept 8, 2024 20:24:17 GMT -5
The question you raised about Osho is one that we have discussed many times, in relation to many different teachers. What does it mean to be a self-realized entity, and how do we categorize that? Is it by their words alone? Is it their behavior? How do we account for individuality/personality within that? How do we put Niz, UG Krishnamurti, Eckhart Tolle, Byron Katie, Mooji etc in the same category, when they are all really quite different? The way I see it, the 'self realized entity' is an archetype. Just as there are archetypes of warriors, and magicians, and explorers etc. Personally, I'd say that Niz and Ramana are 2 of the best examples of individuals that adhere to the self-realized archetype. Then there are many others that don't fit the archetype so well, but still have a huge amount to offer people, through their teaching, their message, and their embodiment of spiritual growth. For me, Byron Katie springs to mind as an example. I believe that many of these highly regarded spiritual folks have a lot to offer, even if they aren't a great archetypical fit. How well does Osho fit the archetype? I think...kind of, but he's not Niz or Ramana. I really do like a lot of what he said though, particularly when he talked about his 'Sannyasins' (which are perhaps the orange people you mentioned?). And in videos I've watched him, he does seem to me to 'emit' a purity of consciousness at times. So I'm a fan of what he brought to the table, but he's also not someone I would say.....'Oh, you really must go and read Osho and watch his videos'. Believing that someone is enlightened is of no use to you. You can't know for sure, and you can't be sure you understand what he says. Believing that you are enlightened is detrimental to you. Who decides that someone is enlightened? Majority? Others less enlightened? |
|
|
|
Post by andrew on Sept 8, 2024 20:54:30 GMT -5
The question you raised about Osho is one that we have discussed many times, in relation to many different teachers. What does it mean to be a self-realized entity, and how do we categorize that? Is it by their words alone? Is it their behavior? How do we account for individuality/personality within that? How do we put Niz, UG Krishnamurti, Eckhart Tolle, Byron Katie, Mooji etc in the same category, when they are all really quite different? The way I see it, the 'self realized entity' is an archetype. Just as there are archetypes of warriors, and magicians, and explorers etc. Personally, I'd say that Niz and Ramana are 2 of the best examples of individuals that adhere to the self-realized archetype. Then there are many others that don't fit the archetype so well, but still have a huge amount to offer people, through their teaching, their message, and their embodiment of spiritual growth. For me, Byron Katie springs to mind as an example. I believe that many of these highly regarded spiritual folks have a lot to offer, even if they aren't a great archetypical fit. How well does Osho fit the archetype? I think...kind of, but he's not Niz or Ramana. I really do like a lot of what he said though, particularly when he talked about his 'Sannyasins' (which are perhaps the orange people you mentioned?). And in videos I've watched him, he does seem to me to 'emit' a purity of consciousness at times. So I'm a fan of what he brought to the table, but he's also not someone I would say.....'Oh, you really must go and read Osho and watch his videos'. Believing that someone is enlightened is of no use to you. You can't know for sure, and you can't be sure you understand what he says. Believing that you are enlightened is detrimental to you. Who decides that someone is enlightened? Majority? Others less enlightened? I do believe that some individuals are more spiritually 'evolved' than others, and that these individuals demonstrate signs of that evolution. I see 'self-realization' as one path of spiritual evolution, and while I don't see it as the only path, it inevitably connects to other paths. For example, those that predominantly follow an Abe-Hicks or Seth path of growth will still be connected to a 'self-realization' path. So when I see folks occasionally saying something about themselves that indicates that they consider that they are enlightened or self-realized, I see it as a signpost about the kind of spiritual path they have followed. |
|
|
|
Post by lolly on Sept 22, 2024 1:49:37 GMT -5
He creeps me out, so I steer clear of the guy.
|
|
roscod
Junior Member
Posts: 53
|
Post by roscod on Sept 26, 2024 7:39:51 GMT -5
He creeps me out, so I steer clear of the guy. I can understand that, and feel a little bit the same. He was also a very erudite expounder of Advaita philosophy, which makes him difficult. |
|
|
|
Post by steven on Sept 30, 2024 12:13:44 GMT -5
I grew up near the city of Fremantle in Western Australia. During the late 1970's, when I was finishing high school, Fremantle was a major centre for followers of Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, who later became Osho. Outside of Poona in India, Fremantle was the largest collection of what us locals called "orange people" globally. Later, Bhagwan changed his name to Osho, and the community set up in Antelope, Oregon, in the US precipitating all sorts of mayhem, and leading to Osho being charged with tax evasion and so on. It is a pretty well known story and there is a quite compelling documentary on Netflix called "Wild Wild West". it seems that after the move to Antelope, Osha became more and more removed from the group, taking a vow of silence and making fewer and fewer public appearances, while Prem Sheila and others battled for control and power in the group. As a teenager in Freo (the locals name for Fremantle, following the Aussie tradition of shortening names and putting an -o on the end) the orange people were both fascinating and intimidating. They were irreverent, they took drugs, they indulged in casual sex (lots of it) and were generally seen as outrageous hedonists by the conservative Fremantle population. They also started numerous businesses, some of which have lasted to this day, and were very conspicuous due to their orange/saffron clothing. There was more to them than meets the eye. Osho, prior to becoming a guru and leader of a so-called cult, was an academic and scholar of Vedic philosophy. There is no doubting his intellect and understanding of the Hindu scriptures. So, bearing in mind that we should not have any bias towards pleasure or pain, but treat them equally, and the so-called "left-hand path of tantra' is as valid as the more conventional tradition, how do most people here view Osho? Was he an enlightened master with an unconventional approach? Was he a charlatan? Was he somewhere in between? I've read some of his works, and he certainly had an intellectual handle on advaita. Was he the real deal or not? I'd love to hear people's views. Get a book called: “The Book of Secrets” by Osho Read it and form your own opinion…he was a gifted teacher. With regard to enlightenment, he certainly understands the nature of things. Style is style, not dictated by understanding. He was definately fervently unconventional. He said of his teaching style: ‘The west focuses too much on the physical, the east focuses too much on the spiritual, I want create a WHOLE human, with balance of the two’ he believed very strongly in LIVING this life FULLY engaged in every way, as both a physical individual aware of their oneness with all there is. |
|
|
|
Post by lolly on Sept 30, 2024 17:43:58 GMT -5
He creeps me out, so I steer clear of the guy. I can understand that, and feel a little bit the same. He was also a very erudite expounder of Advaita philosophy, which makes him difficult. I prefer a fool I can trust to a master who's suss. |
|
|
|
Post by steven on Oct 1, 2024 2:29:38 GMT -5
I can understand that, and feel a little bit the same. He was also a very erudite expounder of Advaita philosophy, which makes him difficult. I prefer a fool I can trust to a master who's suss. All the world teachers are a bit suss in some ways. I mean they don’t have some deeper spiritual understanding or enlightenment that I or countless other have. But they’ve cultivated a way of speaking and a charisma that attract followers…that’s no accident, anyone who has gone deep enough down this rabbit hole could do that, very few do. 1st you have to have an interest in it, then you have to choose to do so. Takes a specific personality type, that personality type resonates with some, doesn’t resonate with others…just part of who we are across the mosaic of humanity. I personally find Osho to be a pretty entertaining guy, and a very good teacher of practice techniques that he’s obviously mastered himself. His capacity to explain the nuances of how to use a technique written 5000 years ago in the modern world is very thorough, clear, effective, and eloquent. He wasn’t big on explaining his version of universal truths according to some Doctrine, but he was very big on teaching people techniques for finding out for themselves. So regardless of his 47 Rolls Royce’s, he’s a good dude in my book for that alone lol. If I could wrap his entire way in a few catch phrases: When asked a question about the nature of things: “Go and find out, here’s some pointers or techniques on how to do so if your curious enough to explore, in the mean time, let’s have a few laughs and party it up, because none of this is that serious, live your life in full enjoyment…I sure am.” I mean, if your gunna follow some advice on this path, I can’t think of better, can you? |
|
|
|
Post by zazeniac on Oct 1, 2024 11:32:20 GMT -5
I prefer a fool I can trust to a master who's suss. All the world teachers are a bit suss in some ways. I mean they don’t have some deeper spiritual understanding or enlightenment that I or countless other have. But they’ve cultivated a way of speaking and a charisma that attract followers…that’s no accident, anyone who has gone deep enough down this rabbit hole could do that, very few do. 1st you have to have an interest in it, then you have to choose to do so. Takes a specific personality type, that personality type resonates with some, doesn’t resonate with others…just part of who we are across the mosaic of humanity. I personally find Osho to be a pretty entertaining guy, and a very good teacher of practice techniques that he’s obviously mastered himself. His capacity to explain the nuances of how to use a technique written 5000 years ago in the modern world is very thorough, clear, effective, and eloquent. He wasn’t big on explaining his version of universal truths according to some Doctrine, but he was very big on teaching people techniques for finding out for themselves. So regardless of his 47 Rolls Royce’s, he’s a good dude in my book for that alone lol. If I could wrap his entire way in a few catch phrases: When asked a question about the nature of things: “Go and find out, here’s some pointers or techniques on how to do so if your curious enough to explore, in the mean time, let’s have a few laughs and party it up, because none of this is that serious, live your life in full enjoyment…I sure am.” I mean, if your gunna follow some advice on this path, I can’t think of better, can you? The folks in Wasco County Oregon might disagree with you. Party on. |
|
|
|
Post by lolly on Oct 1, 2024 16:21:38 GMT -5
I prefer a fool I can trust to a master who's suss. All the world teachers are a bit suss in some ways. I mean they don’t have some deeper spiritual understanding or enlightenment that I or countless other have. But they’ve cultivated a way of speaking and a charisma that attract followers…that’s no accident, anyone who has gone deep enough down this rabbit hole could do that, very few do. 1st you have to have an interest in it, then you have to choose to do so. Takes a specific personality type, that personality type resonates with some, doesn’t resonate with others…just part of who we are across the mosaic of humanity. I personally find Osho to be a pretty entertaining guy, and a very good teacher of practice techniques that he’s obviously mastered himself. His capacity to explain the nuances of how to use a technique written 5000 years ago in the modern world is very thorough, clear, effective, and eloquent. He wasn’t big on explaining his version of universal truths according to some Doctrine, but he was very big on teaching people techniques for finding out for themselves. So regardless of his 47 Rolls Royce’s, he’s a good dude in my book for that alone lol. If I could wrap his entire way in a few catch phrases: When asked a question about the nature of things: “Go and find out, here’s some pointers or techniques on how to do so if your curious enough to explore, in the mean time, let’s have a few laughs and party it up, because none of this is that serious, live your life in full enjoyment…I sure am.” I mean, if your gunna follow some advice on this path, I can’t think of better, can you? I think his past cults like the orange people were weird, and I'm more like you have to serious about it, so I don't vibe with the 'just have fun' thing. On the other hand, taking things seriously is more enjoyable for me than trivial whimsy, which is a contradiction in what he has to say, but there's plenty of teachers, so I don't get any FOMO when I leave Osho out, and since I find him very creepy, and my skin crawls when he pronounces 's', it's best I 'listen' to the visceral signals and steer clear. If other people like it then it's all good, but just from my perspective, I worry for them. |
|
|
|
Post by steven on Oct 1, 2024 16:22:39 GMT -5
All the world teachers are a bit suss in some ways. I mean they don’t have some deeper spiritual understanding or enlightenment that I or countless other have. But they’ve cultivated a way of speaking and a charisma that attract followers…that’s no accident, anyone who has gone deep enough down this rabbit hole could do that, very few do. 1st you have to have an interest in it, then you have to choose to do so. Takes a specific personality type, that personality type resonates with some, doesn’t resonate with others…just part of who we are across the mosaic of humanity. I personally find Osho to be a pretty entertaining guy, and a very good teacher of practice techniques that he’s obviously mastered himself. His capacity to explain the nuances of how to use a technique written 5000 years ago in the modern world is very thorough, clear, effective, and eloquent. He wasn’t big on explaining his version of universal truths according to some Doctrine, but he was very big on teaching people techniques for finding out for themselves. So regardless of his 47 Rolls Royce’s, he’s a good dude in my book for that alone lol. If I could wrap his entire way in a few catch phrases: When asked a question about the nature of things: “Go and find out, here’s some pointers or techniques on how to do so if your curious enough to explore, in the mean time, let’s have a few laughs and party it up, because none of this is that serious, live your life in full enjoyment…I sure am.” I mean, if your gunna follow some advice on this path, I can’t think of better, can you? The folks in Wasco County Oregon might disagree with you. Party on. I’ve been there, that’s some HARDCORE Trump country long before Trump was a thing…certainly a weird place to build an ashram lol |
|
|
|
Post by zazeniac on Oct 1, 2024 20:54:16 GMT -5
The folks in Wasco County Oregon might disagree with you. Party on. I’ve been there, that’s some HARDCORE Trump country long before Trump was a thing…certainly a weird place to build an ashram lol Salmonella in the salads though. Pretty crazy shit the Rajneesh folk. |
|
Other than, perhaps he was at times, and to some extent, careless of various unexpected consequences. But those consequences are material in nature, while the existential truth is quite sideways to that: perfect truth isn't always going to lead to a perfected outcome, according to the laws and morals of the society in which it is spoken about.