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Post by zendancer on Jul 18, 2024 9:22:59 GMT -5
That means that THIS, in the form of Z, enjoys/prefers silence. There is no Z separate from all that IS.  Not that I agree or disagree, but in light of what you wrote, do you think saying so makes any difference? It seems so anti-acausal as if you think it would make a difference. It's impossible to know, but I always throw this stuff out because it might stick somewhere. On ND websites and in zoom discussion groups we often say "This is it. Whatever is happening right now is it. There's nothing to seek other than this." Occasionally, these common pointers will trigger a realization in someone--especially long-time seekers. The other night someone was speaking negatively about something they had done, and I had to say, "Who you think you are didn't do that because there's no SVP at the center of what's happening. THIS does everything, so if you want to blame God, that's okay, but blaming who you think you are for some action is misguided." Did my words trigger a realization? No, but it's always a possibility. |
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Post by zazeniac on Jul 18, 2024 11:08:54 GMT -5
Why I think "knowing" is problematic. It's the purview of the intellect, thinking. Reality is a mystery to the mind. Why doubt is sacred. Doubt all explanations offered by it including this one. How can one live that way? I'd argue it's the only way to live, unencumbered.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 18, 2024 12:25:59 GMT -5
Not that I agree or disagree, but in light of what you wrote, do you think saying so makes any difference? It seems so anti-acausal as if you think it would make a difference. It's impossible to know, but I always throw this stuff out because it might stick somewhere. On ND websites and in zoom discussion groups we often say "This is it. Whatever is happening right now is it. There's nothing to seek other than this." Occasionally, these common pointers will trigger a realization in someone--especially long-time seekers. The other night someone was speaking negatively about something they had done, and I had to say, "Who you think you are didn't do that because there's no SVP at the center of what's happening. THIS does everything, so if you want to blame God, that's okay, but blaming who you think you are for some action is misguided." Did my words trigger a realization? No, but it's always a possibility. Did or did not Thomas Matthew Crooks shoot FP Donald J Trump in the ear? |
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Post by zendancer on Jul 18, 2024 13:54:37 GMT -5
It's impossible to know, but I always throw this stuff out because it might stick somewhere. On ND websites and in zoom discussion groups we often say "This is it. Whatever is happening right now is it. There's nothing to seek other than this." Occasionally, these common pointers will trigger a realization in someone--especially long-time seekers. The other night someone was speaking negatively about something they had done, and I had to say, "Who you think you are didn't do that because there's no SVP at the center of what's happening. THIS does everything, so if you want to blame God, that's okay, but blaming who you think you are for some action is misguided." Did my words trigger a realization? No, but it's always a possibility. Did or did not Thomas Matthew Crooks shoot FP Donald J Trump in the ear? THIS, in the form of what is named "Crooks," shot THIS, in the form of what is named "Trump;" there is no "other." |
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Post by zendancer on Jul 18, 2024 13:57:24 GMT -5
Why I think "knowing" is problematic. It's the purview of the intellect, thinking. Reality is a mystery to the mind. Why doubt is sacred. Doubt all explanations offered by it including this one. How can one live that way? I'd argue it's the only way to live, unencumbered. Well, there are two kinds of knowing; one way is through the mind (indirect) and the other way is through the body (direct). Body-knowing is more powerful than mind-knowing, but each person has to verify that for him/herself. The reason we say "actions speak louder than words" is related to this. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 18, 2024 14:17:56 GMT -5
Did or did not Thomas Matthew Crooks shoot FP Donald J Trump in the ear? THIS, in the form of what is named "Crooks," shot THIS, in the form of what is named "Trump;" there is no "other." There is not "other", that's a no-brainer. It's a tautology. (Removed, but reinserted, after reply to ZD, the explanation) So, did or did not Thomas Matthew Crooks shoot FP Donald J Trump in the ear? |
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Post by lolly on Jul 19, 2024 4:54:18 GMT -5
Why I think "knowing" is problematic. It's the purview of the intellect, thinking. Reality is a mystery to the mind. Why doubt is sacred. Doubt all explanations offered by it including this one. How can one live that way? I'd argue it's the only way to live, unencumbered. Well, there are two kinds of knowing; one way is through the mind (indirect) and the other way is through the body (direct). Body-knowing is more powerful than mind-knowing, but each person has to verify that for him/herself. The reason we say "actions speak louder than words" is related to this. That's right. There's a knowing or acquired knowledge, like I know things about different trees, and there is knowing qualia directly, "this is what it's like".
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Post by zazeniac on Jul 19, 2024 7:57:22 GMT -5
Why I think "knowing" is problematic. It's the purview of the intellect, thinking. Reality is a mystery to the mind. Why doubt is sacred. Doubt all explanations offered by it including this one. How can one live that way? I'd argue it's the only way to live, unencumbered. Well, there are two kinds of knowing; one way is through the mind (indirect) and the other way is through the body (direct). Body-knowing is more powerful than mind-knowing, but each person has to verify that for him/herself. The reason we say "actions speak louder than words" is related to this. Archibald MacLeish wrote a poem about poetry. I think the last line was "a poem should not mean, but be." Is "being" different than body knowledge? Being lost in the moment as opposed to thought? It feels the further I go in this speculation, the more I'm "slip sliding away" from Reality. 😁 |
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Post by zendancer on Jul 19, 2024 9:27:56 GMT -5
Well, there are two kinds of knowing; one way is through the mind (indirect) and the other way is through the body (direct). Body-knowing is more powerful than mind-knowing, but each person has to verify that for him/herself. The reason we say "actions speak louder than words" is related to this. Archibald MacLeish wrote a poem about poetry. I think the last line was "a poem should not mean, but be." Is "being" different than body knowledge? Being lost in the moment as opposed to thought? It feels the further I go in this speculation, the more I'm "slip sliding away" from Reality. 😁 There's no SVP who gets "lost in thought" or who can "slide away from reality." What we are IS reality manifesting however it manifests. The Zen tradition eschews reflective thought in favor of a spontaneous response to whatever life brings. The koan system is a methodology designed to help people get out of their heads and let the body respond directly to whatever is happening. Yes, the goal is to simply BE "what is" rather than reflect ABOUT "what is." The body is far more intelligent than the intellect, but human adults are habituated to "living in their heads," so their understanding of what's going on remains extremely superficial. Where does a thought come from? Where does an intention or a desire come from? Curiosity? An interest? None of these things come from a "me" because there is no "me." When the intellect becomes quiescent, the body continues to function intelligently because reality is known directly through the body, and the body can respond directly and spontaneously to whatever occurs. Speculation, reflection, and imagination are useful, but not useful for penetrating existential issues. That's why ZM Seung Sahn used to tell his students "Put it all down." IOW, put away your ideas, your comparing mind, your checking mind, your judgmental mind, your desiring mind, etc, and "be here now" doing whatever needs to be done. Reflective thought is an imaginative overlay that obscures the actuality of "what is." |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 19, 2024 10:33:03 GMT -5
Archibald MacLeish wrote a poem about poetry. I think the last line was "a poem should not mean, but be." Is "being" different than body knowledge? Being lost in the moment as opposed to thought? It feels the further I go in this speculation, the more I'm "slip sliding away" from Reality. 😁 There's no SVP who gets "lost in thought" or who can "slide away from reality." What we are IS reality manifesting however it manifests. The Zen tradition eschews reflective thought in favor of a spontaneous response to whatever life brings. The koan system is a methodology designed to help people get out of their heads and let the body respond directly to whatever is happening. Yes, the goal is to simply BE "what is" rather than reflect ABOUT "what is." The body is far more intelligent than the intellect, but human adults are habituated to "living in their heads," so their understanding of what's going on remains extremely superficial. Where does a thought come from? Where does an intention or a desire come from? Curiosity? An interest? None of these things come from a "me" because there is no "me." When the intellect becomes quiescent, the body continues to function intelligently because reality is known directly through the body, and the body can respond directly and spontaneously to whatever occurs. Speculation, reflection, and imagination are useful, but not useful for penetrating existential issues. That's why ZM Seung Sahn used to tell his students "Put it all down." IOW, put away your ideas, your comparing mind, your checking mind, your judgmental mind, your desiring mind, etc, and "be here now" doing whatever needs to be done. Reflective thought is an imaginative overlay that obscures the actuality of "what is." Finally, we almost agree. Reflective thought is an imaginative overlay that obscures the actuality of "what is." Thoughts, are part of the body. I always go back to my basics, they have never failed me. Essence is what you are born as, or born with. So, obviously, the body belongs to essence, that means the brain, too, the neural structure, the instincts. Personality (the so-called SVP) consists of the contents of the body/brain/neural structure, collected via the sensory neurons, via the five senses. Were we born with the contents? No. The contents are the connections between the neurons. Neurons = essence, connections between the neurons = personality/so-called SVP. Now we come to the pertinent point. Are the connections between the neurons, imaginary? No, they are not imaginary. (My whole ~debate~ with ZD for 15 year revolves around this point). The contents of the centers are real and actual data-points. Now, even in my tradition, what results from the combining or these billions of data-points connecting, themselves, haphazardly, is called Imaginary I. Here, it's known a the SVP, ZD is correct, there isn't a SVP, it is imaginary. But I have modified the term as so-called SVP. Why? Because although the so-called SVP is yes, imaginary, its basis (the connections between neurons) is NOT imaginary. That's why I asked, did Thomas Matthew Crooks shoot FP Trump in the ear? Yes, Thomas Matthew Crooks, is an imaginary composite, but the actual conditioning of which the imaginary TMC consists, is NOT imaginary. The Whole is not responsible for shooting FP Donald Trump, it's an abomination to say so. The conditioning, which consists of the actual and very real connections between neurons, is what shot the former President. We have to own our own shite. Karma is just a row of dominos falling. However, the True Self assumes accountability for the conditioning, even though the conditioning, just happened, there was no doer. The samskaras and the vasanas that link the dominos, have to have the energy taken out of them. ZD is correct, we are not what we think we are. We are, "a man is unable to explain what he himself really is." More in reply to zazeniac. |
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Post by zazeniac on Jul 19, 2024 11:00:32 GMT -5
There's no SVP who gets "lost in thought" or who can "slide away from reality." What we are IS reality manifesting however it manifests. The Zen tradition eschews reflective thought in favor of a spontaneous response to whatever life brings. The koan system is a methodology designed to help people get out of their heads and let the body respond directly to whatever is happening. Yes, the goal is to simply BE "what is" rather than reflect ABOUT "what is." The body is far more intelligent than the intellect, but human adults are habituated to "living in their heads," so their understanding of what's going on remains extremely superficial. Where does a thought come from? Where does an intention or a desire come from? Curiosity? An interest? None of these things come from a "me" because there is no "me." When the intellect becomes quiescent, the body continues to function intelligently because reality is known directly through the body, and the body can respond directly and spontaneously to whatever occurs. Speculation, reflection, and imagination are useful, but not useful for penetrating existential issues. That's why ZM Seung Sahn used to tell his students "Put it all down." IOW, put away your ideas, your comparing mind, your checking mind, your judgmental mind, your desiring mind, etc, and "be here now" doing whatever needs to be done. Reflective thought is an imaginative overlay that obscures the actuality of "what is." Finally, we almost agree. Reflective thought is an imaginative overlay that obscures the actuality of "what is." Thoughts, are part of the body. I always go back to my basics, they have never failed me. Essence is what you are born as, or born with. So, obviously, the body belongs to essence, that means the brain, too, the neural structure, the instincts. Personality (the so-called SVP) consists of the contents of the body/brain/neural structure, collected via the sensory neurons, via the five senses. Were we born with the contents? No. The contents are the connections between the neurons. Neurons = essence, connections between the neurons = personality/so-called SVP. Now we come to the pertinent point. Are the connections between the neurons, imaginary? No, they are not imaginary. (My whole ~debate~ with ZD for 15 year revolves around this point). The contents of the centers are real and actual data-points. Now, even in my tradition, what results from the combining or these billions of data-points connecting, themselves, haphazardly, is called Imaginary I. Here, it's known a the SVP, ZD is correct, there isn't a SVP, it is imaginary. But I have modified the term as so-called SVP. Why? Because although the so-called SVP is yes, imaginary, its basis (the connections between neurons) is NOT imaginary. That's why I asked, did Thomas Matthew Crooks shoot FP Trump in the ear? Yes, Thomas Matthew Crooks, is an imaginary composite, but the actual conditioning of which the imaginary TMC consists, is NOT imaginary. The Whole is not responsible for shooting FP Donald Trump, it's an abomination to say so. The conditioning, which consists of the actual and very real connections between neurons, is what shot the former President. ZD is correct, we are not what we think we are. We are, "a man is unable to explain what he himself really is." More in reply to zazeniac. My view is rudimentary. If neurons exist or not isn't a pivotal component in the journey. It's not like being told repeatedly you're not an SVP has any utility. Like Norbu points out in the video I posted previously, it's a readily apparent conclusion, but makes no difference. You still yell "aw" when stubbing your toe. Some of you will sputter and spew at the last statement. It makes me want to dance a jig. Nadal won a close one today. Life is good. The roller coaster is heading in the "right" direction. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 19, 2024 11:07:46 GMT -5
Well, there are two kinds of knowing; one way is through the mind (indirect) and the other way is through the body (direct). Body-knowing is more powerful than mind-knowing, but each person has to verify that for him/herself. The reason we say "actions speak louder than words" is related to this. Archibald MacLeish wrote a poem about poetry. I think the last line was "a poem should not mean, but be." Is "being" different than body knowledge? Being lost in the moment as opposed to thought? It feels the further I go in this speculation, the more I'm "slip sliding away" from Reality. 😁 I always appreciate you, because it's easy to see, ~you~ are doing the real work, self-inquiry. I broke it all down in the reply to ZD above. Real inquiry is always from the inside (to) out. From the outside, inquiry never works. Inquiry from the outside, is the dog chasing its tail, always. So zazeniac is like the butterfly in the chrysalis, struggling to emerge. What is getting lost, and slipping away from reality, is the caterpillar. At the end of the process, the caterpillar no longer is. So the caterpillar, is in a real state of confusion. Yes, it really sucks. The caterpillar, all caterpillars, are genetically predisposed to become butterflies, through a process. The process works pretty well, in caterpillar/butterflies. But in humans, there is an extra hitch that subverts the process, the imaginary self, the so-called SVP. Explained above to ZD. The so-called SVP thinks it's real, thinks it can do, thinks it can control, thinks it can act. It can't. The so-called SVP consists of conditioning, that just plays out, like a row of dominos. zazeniac is not the conditioning. You have proved this to yourself, I know. Never, never, never, give up practice. Keep exploring practice. The real actual zazeniac, is that which is the practice, is that which is practicing. Why-not-stop? Because practice also dissolves the connections between neurons, the conditioning. (See post above). And, so, you may continue to live "slip sliding away", but it is a wonderful, glorious living 'in the zone'. The next moment is always a surprise. The so-called SVP doesn't like surprises, it likes the same old same old same old. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 19, 2024 11:18:58 GMT -5
Finally, we almost agree. Reflective thought is an imaginative overlay that obscures the actuality of "what is." Thoughts, are part of the body. I always go back to my basics, they have never failed me. Essence is what you are born as, or born with. So, obviously, the body belongs to essence, that means the brain, too, the neural structure, the instincts. Personality (the so-called SVP) consists of the contents of the body/brain/neural structure, collected via the sensory neurons, via the five senses. Were we born with the contents? No. The contents are the connections between the neurons. Neurons = essence, connections between the neurons = personality/so-called SVP. Now we come to the pertinent point. Are the connections between the neurons, imaginary? No, they are not imaginary. (My whole ~debate~ with ZD for 15 year revolves around this point). The contents of the centers are real and actual data-points. Now, even in my tradition, what results from the combining or these billions of data-points connecting, themselves, haphazardly, is called Imaginary I. Here, it's known a the SVP, ZD is correct, there isn't a SVP, it is imaginary. But I have modified the term as so-called SVP. Why? Because although the so-called SVP is yes, imaginary, its basis (the connections between neurons) is NOT imaginary. That's why I asked, did Thomas Matthew Crooks shoot FP Trump in the ear? Yes, Thomas Matthew Crooks, is an imaginary composite, but the actual conditioning of which the imaginary TMC consists, is NOT imaginary. The Whole is not responsible for shooting FP Donald Trump, it's an abomination to say so. The conditioning, which consists of the actual and very real connections between neurons, is what shot the former President. ZD is correct, we are not what we think we are. We are, "a man is unable to explain what he himself really is." More in reply to zazeniac. My view is rudimentary. If neurons exist or not isn't a pivotal component in the journey. It's not like being told repeatedly you're not an SVP has any utility. Like Norbu points out in the video I posted previously, it's a readily apparent conclusion, but makes no difference. You still yell "aw" when stubbing your toe. Some of you will sputter and spew at the last statement. It makes me want to dance a jig. Nadal won a close one today. Life is good. The roller coaster is heading in the "right" direction. That post was mostly for ZD. The so-called SVP isn't necessarily what shouts "aw". The "aw" emerges from the body, it's a raw aw. .........No words really matter. Practice is the only thing that matters. The Ikkyu story is very short, but a whole universe is packed into it. Attention, attention, attention. Practice removes one or two, sometimes three of the dominos. Whatever arises, attend to that. When something else arises, attend to that. Eventually, you cease to be interested in the so-called SVP, you love to-be that which attends. The conditioning, only has utility, it's a tool. But most people have everything invested in the so-called SVP. This ~place~ of attending is always and only in the present moment. What the Zen Masters showed was they always ~lived there~, as their answers always demonstrated, this. Their answers were very-like, an "aw". |
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Post by lolly on Jul 19, 2024 20:34:24 GMT -5
I find the one that seem to be a SVP isn't really me, but a form of pretense that doesn't like being caught out. I think if you really work at cultivation of equanimity the ego will be completely exposed, so I advocate returning attention to the reality of lived experience as it is in this moment. Otherwise, you keep getting lost in the mind and barely notice your actual life.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 20, 2024 5:27:04 GMT -5
I find the one that seem to be a SVP isn't really me, but a form of pretense that doesn't like being caught out. I think if you really work at cultivation of equanimity the ego will be completely exposed, so I advocate returning attention to the reality of lived experience as it is in this moment. Otherwise, you keep getting lost in the mind and barely notice your actual life. sdp likes twice. It's important to make this distinction. In fact, it's everything. |
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