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Post by lolly on Jan 22, 2024 23:54:52 GMT -5
So it seems people are aware of what is a given compared to whatever they believe. If approached with something similar to your meditation, it is as direct a path as possible. If approached with mind it can be an endless bunny warren. The Flat Earth dealio is one such example.  I think the essence of the theory is supposing there is no objective universe, ergo everything must be a belief. |
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Post by inavalan on Jan 23, 2024 1:27:29 GMT -5
If approached with something similar to your meditation, it is as direct a path as possible. If approached with mind it can be an endless bunny warren. The Flat Earth dealio is one such example. I think the essence of the theory is supposing there is no objective universe, ergo everything must be a belief. My understanding is that there is no objective physical universe, but that on the other hand there is a physical reality framework that reflects an inner reality. Each one of the participants in this physical reality framework perceives it according to its individual beliefs, a physical reality presented to each individual's physical senses by its subconscious. All the participants, no matter their level of evolvement, are connected at the non-physical level. For example, the (physical) human body is composed of organs, cells, particles, each one being a materialization of a non-physical counterpart. The gestalt of consciousness that is materialized as human body is composed of elements that correspond to those physical components. The gestalt structure means that the state of physical body is determined at the body's consciousness level, and not at its physical components' level. The association between the body gestalt of consciousness and its elements is dynamic, the elements that don't resonate anymore with the gestalt leave it, and new elements that start to resonate with the gestalt join it. I think that this is something that some models of reality ignore, assuming there is some kind of magic, a belief, an illusory reality created form "thin air". This is detrimental, because it causes an imbalance due to the high instability, the high turn over. |
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Post by laughter on Jan 23, 2024 12:46:24 GMT -5
If approached with something similar to your meditation, it is as direct a path as possible. If approached with mind it can be an endless bunny warren. The Flat Earth dealio is one such example. I think the essence of the theory is supposing there is no objective universe, ergo everything must be a belief. That seems to me a common thread running through various perspectives, but I don't think they each tie together in exactly that simple way. |
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Post by lolly on Jan 23, 2024 22:03:12 GMT -5
I think the essence of the theory is supposing there is no objective universe, ergo everything must be a belief. That seems to me a common thread running through various perspectives, but I don't think they each tie together in exactly that simple way. We'll have to boil off the liquid and see what remains. We could make coffee in the meantime, at least. |
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Post by lolly on Jan 23, 2024 22:07:27 GMT -5
I think the essence of the theory is supposing there is no objective universe, ergo everything must be a belief. My understanding is that there is no objective physical universe, but that on the other hand there is a physical reality framework that reflects an inner reality. Each one of the participants in this physical reality framework perceives it according to its individual beliefs, a physical reality presented to each individual's physical senses by its subconscious. All the participants, no matter their level of evolvement, are connected at the non-physical level. For example, the (physical) human body is composed of organs, cells, particles, each one being a materialization of a non-physical counterpart. The gestalt of consciousness that is materialized as human body is composed of elements that correspond to those physical components. The gestalt structure means that the state of physical body is determined at the body's consciousness level, and not at its physical components' level. The association between the body gestalt of consciousness and its elements is dynamic, the elements that don't resonate anymore with the gestalt leave it, and new elements that start to resonate with the gestalt join it. I think that this is something that some models of reality ignore, assuming there is some kind of magic, a belief, an illusory reality created form "thin air". This is detrimental, because it causes an imbalance due to the high instability, the high turn over. I'm going with Gopal's 'perception is creation' theory for now, but I'll have to embellish it to account for the apparent order of things. |
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Post by tenka on Jan 26, 2024 14:59:04 GMT -5
I don't care what a few non dualists think in regards to my definition of words. The thing is, is that we all believe what we believe things to mean. You have just illustrated this perfectly. You just resonate with a few other's in regards to what conceptual words mean. That's all. I keep flogging the dead horse cos it appears peeps don't actually understand what a belief system means and qualifies as.. Let me me flog the damn horse again, you don't know 100% what you actually are, so there is a belief in that. The belief system in effect reflects what you believe yourself to be that can stub your toe in the first place. It's no good stating you have a direct experience of it if for example you believe you are just an appearance of a person. You have to have a belief in place that encompasses an experience where what you are can stub their toe. Beyond the self and mind there is no experience of banging your toe. There is no reference to you or the toe. So we have to be mindful of our experience. You said you directly experience bashing your toe. So what is it that bangs their toe. You don't know do you. What you don't know 100% to be true is a belief. It's not that difficult to understand. But, there's a difference between having beliefs, and experiencing beliefs. And I think that what the folks you are talking to here are saying is that they don't 'experience' belief. I don't really experience 'beliefs' much either. I think I might be right in saying that the experience of a belief comes with an experience of projecting ourselves into the future or past, and in contrast, when we are experiencing ourselves as present...or presence....in the moment, there's no experience of belief. When you are meditating, are you experiencing belief? (Again, I understand that there are beliefs there somewhere). .. I have been speaking about an integrated belief system, and that is why one doesn't have to continuously experience the belief of the floor underneath their feet will support their weight. The belief is already there. When something changes in regards the floor beneath their feet, then their belief system would reflect this. It's similar to peeps that think that they are beyond mind mind simply because they stop the mental chitter chatter, well one doesn't have to continuously chitter chatter to still be of the mind. In regards to meditating, it depends on what state one acquires, is one simply meditating to whale music or has one transcended somewhat? This thing about experiencing beliefs is a little messed up for it's a little misconceived. It's a little like being aware of breathing and then not, just because you aren't aware of breathing doesn't mean to say you're not. |
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Post by tenka on Jan 26, 2024 15:05:58 GMT -5
Let me me flog the damn horse again, you don't know 100% what you actually are, so there is a belief in that. You take your body and mind, with all its beliefs, thoughts and memories, as absolute proof of your personal existence. As proof that you are. That you exist. And that's all fine and good. But why argue with others who look deeper than you do, are more interested in what it is that actually animates the body and enlivens the mind in the first place, before a single thought or belief can even be had? You obviously haven't followed or perhaps understood anything that I have said over the years. I don't have any absolute's. I can look as deep as the next peep, but I have been speaking about what is known to be 100% true and that which isn't. That which isn't is a belief held to be true. Talking about what is prior to a belief had is not a reflection of someone saying they don't have beliefs lol. We have to remain in context here. This is why you get some peeps arguing that they are not even here. Peeps trying to speak about no beliefs when believing what they do is kinda silly. Perhaps you need to look deeper into this before you want to cast aspersions. |
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Post by tenka on Jan 26, 2024 15:08:32 GMT -5
I don't care what a few non dualists think in regards to my definition of words. The thing is, is that we all believe what we believe things to mean. You have just illustrated this perfectly. You just resonate with a few other's in regards to what conceptual words mean. That's all. I keep flogging the dead horse cos it appears peeps don't actually understand what a belief system means and qualifies as.. Let me me flog the damn horse again, you don't know 100% what you actually are, so there is a belief in that. The belief system in effect reflects what you believe yourself to be that can stub your toe in the first place. It's no good stating you have a direct experience of it if for example you believe you are just an appearance of a person. You have to have a belief in place that encompasses an experience where what you are can stub their toe. Beyond the self and mind there is no experience of banging your toe. There is no reference to you or the toe. So we have to be mindful of our experience. You said you directly experience bashing your toe. So what is it that bangs their toe. You don't know do you. What you don't know 100% to be true is a belief. It's not that difficult to understand. OK. Keep flogging away, but the horse is definitely dead. Only if you believe it is  |
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Post by andrew on Jan 26, 2024 15:09:30 GMT -5
But, there's a difference between having beliefs, and experiencing beliefs. And I think that what the folks you are talking to here are saying is that they don't 'experience' belief. I don't really experience 'beliefs' much either. I think I might be right in saying that the experience of a belief comes with an experience of projecting ourselves into the future or past, and in contrast, when we are experiencing ourselves as present...or presence....in the moment, there's no experience of belief. When you are meditating, are you experiencing belief? (Again, I understand that there are beliefs there somewhere). .. I have been speaking about an integrated belief system, and that is why one doesn't have to continuously experience the belief of the floor underneath their feet will support their weight. The belief is already there. When something changes in regards the floor beneath their feet, then their belief system would reflect this. It's similar to peeps that think that they are beyond mind mind simply because they stop the mental chitter chatter, well one doesn't have to continuously chitter chatter to still be of the mind. In regards to meditating, it depends on what state one acquires, is one simply meditating to whale music or has one transcended somewhat? This thing about experiencing beliefs is a little messed up for it's a little misconceived. It's a little like being aware of breathing and then not, just because you aren't aware of breathing doesn't mean to say you're not. yeah agree with all that. But I'd say most folks are consciously experiencing 'beliefs' in their experience. Whereas some spiritual paths e.g Zen are specifically supporting people in releasing those beliefs from their conscious experience. Beliefs will still exist on some level (e.g floor beneath my feet), but the quality of the experience, and the 'way' of experiencing, has changed. |
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Post by tenka on Jan 26, 2024 15:20:05 GMT -5
.. I have been speaking about an integrated belief system, and that is why one doesn't have to continuously experience the belief of the floor underneath their feet will support their weight. The belief is already there. When something changes in regards the floor beneath their feet, then their belief system would reflect this. It's similar to peeps that think that they are beyond mind mind simply because they stop the mental chitter chatter, well one doesn't have to continuously chitter chatter to still be of the mind. In regards to meditating, it depends on what state one acquires, is one simply meditating to whale music or has one transcended somewhat? This thing about experiencing beliefs is a little messed up for it's a little misconceived. It's a little like being aware of breathing and then not, just because you aren't aware of breathing doesn't mean to say you're not. yeah agree with all that. But I'd say most folks are consciously experiencing 'beliefs' in their experience. Whereas some spiritual paths e.g Zen are specifically supporting people in releasing those beliefs from their conscious experience. Beliefs will still exist on some level (e.g floor beneath my feet), but the quality of the experience, and the 'way' of experiencing, has changed. I suppose there are different degrees at play here like you say, some beliefs are more conscious than other's. I kinda only go by how I live and how things work for me, butt I dare say some are more methodical in some respects as they experience life and take a step at a time evaluating everything regarding their experiences. Letting go of the stuff that isn't really important in the grand scheme of things still leaves the basics. |
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Post by justlikeyou on Jan 26, 2024 15:52:30 GMT -5
You take your body and mind, with all its beliefs, thoughts and memories, as absolute proof of your personal existence. As proof that you are. That you exist. And that's all fine and good. But why argue with others who look deeper than you do, are more interested in what it is that actually animates the body and enlivens the mind in the first place, before a single thought or belief can even be had? You obviously haven't followed or perhaps understood anything that I have said over the years. I don't have any absolute's. I can look as deep as the next peep, but I have been speaking about what is known to be 100% true and that which isn't. That which isn't is a belief held to be true. Talking about what is prior to a belief had is not a reflection of someone saying they don't have beliefs lol. We have to remain in context here. This is why you get some peeps arguing that they are not even here. Peeps trying to speak about no beliefs when believing what they do is kinda silly. Perhaps you need to look deeper into this before you want to cast aspersions. |
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Post by andrew on Feb 8, 2024 1:55:01 GMT -5
From the other thread...
what are you trusting in?
What would you say happens with the rational thinking mind, in this trust/surrender?
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Post by inavalan on Feb 8, 2024 2:36:39 GMT -5
From the other thread... what are you trusting in? What would you say happens with the rational thinking mind, in this trust/surrender? Seth's explanation goes against the "critical" thinking: - "More 'evidence' of my independent existence will appear in direct proportion to your belief in it, and Ruburt’s. For as you believe in me you allow me to manifest more completely" --- TES8 "399
Bringing "critical" thinking as an argument reminds of the "critical" thinking of Pavlov's dogs. |
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Post by laughter on Feb 8, 2024 7:01:37 GMT -5
From the other thread... what are you trusting in? What would you say happens with the rational thinking mind, in this trust/surrender? To some degree at least, the answer is in the thread title, and I'd say it answers the questions completely.  |
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Post by zendancer on Feb 8, 2024 10:58:25 GMT -5
From the other thread... what are you trusting in? What would you say happens with the rational thinking mind, in this trust/surrender? To some degree at least, the answer is in the thread title, and I'd say it answers the questions completely. Agreed. It's pretty simple. If the intellect becomes a servant rather than a master (master=machine of deception created by cultural conditioning and habits of thought), and if there has been sufficient realization (which informs the intellect), then the body/mind organism functions spontaneously and appropriately without needing to reflect about what's happening. Full adult intellectual capability remains, of course, but the individual knows that there is no boundary between the body and the most distant star. There is a felt sense of being one with reality (in the flow) rather than being a separate volitional entity living in a world of separately-existing objects. I enjoy asking people, "When you inhale, when does the air you inhale become "you?" Those with sufficient insight know that the air is, to use Tenka's phrase somewhat modified, "what they actually already are." What we are is reality looking at Itself from a unique perspective. The same undivided field of reality is also looking at Itself through the eyes of every other creature because there is only one thingless thing here. |
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