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Post by inavalan on Jan 21, 2024 18:27:39 GMT -5
You may rest it, but you haven't made any point, excepting that your view of reality is different than mine. You really do need to do something to ~get out of your head~. Have you not ever tried to ~meditate~? Take two minutes, right now. The simplest thing, just watch your breath. Sit, relaxed, breath in your nose, out your mouth. Sense the air coming in your nose, sense the air coming out your mouth. You can change it up, sense your chest rise-lungs fill as you breath in, chest sink-lungs empty, as you exhale. ~~~~~~` You will not get 3 seconds until a word-thought comes up, but just go back to sensing your breath. Try for two minutes, you will not get past 4 seconds without a thought entering your mind. Try it five minutes, you will not get past five seconds, merely sensing your breath. Five minutes is enough at one time. And while you are doing this, you don't know you have a left foot, you don't experience your left foot. Throughout your day, you never know you have a left foot. Because you live in your head. Just try it. Another thing you can try, try threading a needle. Now you're getting ridiculous. You feel it but can't resist the temptation. That's how suffering gets going. EDIT: You don't even understand what you recommendation is supposed to do. It is a means to get a good contact with your subconscious, in order to get your reference back into your mind, where it is supposed to be, and it was before you got conditioned. |
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Post by inavalan on Jan 21, 2024 18:37:59 GMT -5
It goes both ways ... You believe that you've been punched in the face. It isn't a truth. It is your recollection. Your past is created from the present to match your current beliefs and needs of evolvement. Your past is only yours; and for you it is "the" past. I see this differently. I believe that, as a group of souls, we have incarnated at this time to create and experience a particular format/template, that comes with certain rules. And one of those rules is linearity. So while, in the broadest sense, I agree with you that this linearity isn't happening, we create the very real impression that it is. And we create consistency to go with that. Hence why, we all share the same memories of the past. We all share a memory of 9-11 occurring on the same day. I am not solipsist, so I don't believe that I am creating your memory of that. A bit like a Dungeons and Dragons game. We each take on roles and play a game, agreeing to certain rules. Linearity is one of those rules. If and when we shift into a higher dimension experience, then we would agree to experience time differently. It's hard for me to imagine what that would be like, but it would be more quantum rather than linear. So within the context of this game, in which we agreed to experience linearity, I'd say it is contextually true that I was punched in the face. , and I actually perceive it as my interpretation of an event, created by my subconscious for my benefit: a lesson and a guidance. It isn't solipsism, at all, as a newborn, a preschooler, a student, ... who would recognize their limited level of comprehension, aren't solipsists. It is what the Delphic maxims point to: know what you are; don't exceed it; if you do then there's suffering. |
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Post by andrew on Jan 21, 2024 18:47:13 GMT -5
I see this differently. I believe that, as a group of souls, we have incarnated at this time to create and experience a particular format/template, that comes with certain rules. And one of those rules is linearity. So while, in the broadest sense, I agree with you that this linearity isn't happening, we create the very real impression that it is. And we create consistency to go with that. Hence why, we all share the same memories of the past. We all share a memory of 9-11 occurring on the same day. I am not solipsist, so I don't believe that I am creating your memory of that. A bit like a Dungeons and Dragons game. We each take on roles and play a game, agreeing to certain rules. Linearity is one of those rules. If and when we shift into a higher dimension experience, then we would agree to experience time differently. It's hard for me to imagine what that would be like, but it would be more quantum rather than linear. So within the context of this game, in which we agreed to experience linearity, I'd say it is contextually true that I was punched in the face. , and I actually perceive it as my interpretation of an event, created by my subconscious for my benefit: a lesson and a guidance. It isn't solipsism, at all, as a newborn, a preschooler, a student, ... who would recognize their limited level of comprehension, aren't solipsists. It is what the Delphic maxims point to: know what you are; don't exceed it; if you do then there's suffering. To clarify, solipsism in this case would be, 'I am responsible for the memory that you are experiencing'. For me, that would be an overly simplistic way of explaining why you are experiencing the memory that you are experiencing. If you don't believe in linearity, why do you trust your memory at all? It seems to me that trust in memory assumes 'likelihood', and likelihood is only possible, if linearity is believed to be the case. If we hadn't agreed to experience linearity, why do we even have memory? |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 21, 2024 19:09:26 GMT -5
You really do need to do something to ~get out of your head~. Have you not ever tried to ~meditate~? Take two minutes, right now. The simplest thing, just watch your breath. Sit, relaxed, breath in your nose, out your mouth. Sense the air coming in your nose, sense the air coming out your mouth. You can change it up, sense your chest rise-lungs fill as you breath in, chest sink-lungs empty, as you exhale. ~~~~~~` You will not get 3 seconds until a word-thought comes up, but just go back to sensing your breath. Try for two minutes, you will not get past 4 seconds without a thought entering your mind. Try it five minutes, you will not get past five seconds, merely sensing your breath. Five minutes is enough at one time. And while you are doing this, you don't know you have a left foot, you don't experience your left foot. Throughout your day, you never know you have a left foot. Because you live in your head. Just try it. Another thing you can try, try threading a needle. Now you're getting ridiculous. You feel it but can't resist the temptation. That's how suffering gets going. EDIT: You don't even understand what you recommendation is supposed to do. It is a means to get a good contact with your subconscious, in order to get your reference back into your mind, where it is supposed to be, and it was before you got conditioned. The discussion was about being in the present moment. You said it's impossible to experience the present moment. I asked if you had ever gotten punched in the face, said I doubted it. You confirmed you had never been punched in the face. So, I suggested other ways to experience the present moment. Nothing ridiculous here. It's OK if you don't wish to experience the present moment. About 98% of people on the planet live either in the past or the future, never here, never now. No, I need to change that, plenty of people go to bed hungry every night. I mean actually hungry. Hunger is present-moment. This is a short cut to your suggestions. Once you understand the principle, no conceptualization whatsoever is necessary. |
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Post by inavalan on Jan 21, 2024 19:22:37 GMT -5
Now you're getting ridiculous. You feel it but can't resist the temptation. That's how suffering gets going. EDIT: You don't even understand what you recommendation is supposed to do. It is a means to get a good contact with your subconscious, in order to get your reference back into your mind, where it is supposed to be, and it was before you got conditioned. The discussion was about being in the present moment. You said it's impossible to experience the present moment. I asked if you had ever gotten punched in the face, said I doubted it. You confirmed you had never been punched in the face. So, I suggested other ways to experience the present moment. Nothing ridiculous here. It's OK if you don't wish to experience the present moment. About 98% of people on the planet live either in the past or the future, never here, never now. No, I need to change that, plenty of people go to bed hungry every night. I mean actually hungry. Hunger is present-moment. This is a short cut to your suggestions. Once you understand the principle, no conceptualization whatsoever is necessary. I disagree. I'll cut this here. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 21, 2024 19:35:59 GMT -5
The discussion was about being in the present moment. You said it's impossible to experience the present moment. I asked if you had ever gotten punched in the face, said I doubted it. You confirmed you had never been punched in the face. So, I suggested other ways to experience the present moment. Nothing ridiculous here. It's OK if you don't wish to experience the present moment. About 98% of people on the planet live either in the past or the future, never here, never now. No, I need to change that, plenty of people go to bed hungry every night. I mean actually hungry. Hunger is present-moment. This is a short cut to your suggestions. Once you understand the principle, no conceptualization whatsoever is necessary. I disagree. I'll cut this here. I came back to edit. Look up the word kyosaku. It's function and purpose is to put one in the present moment. |
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Post by andrew on Jan 21, 2024 19:56:43 GMT -5
I see this differently. I believe that, as a group of souls, we have incarnated at this time to create and experience a particular format/template, that comes with certain rules. And one of those rules is linearity. So while, in the broadest sense, I agree with you that this linearity isn't happening, we create the very real impression that it is. And we create consistency to go with that. Hence why, we all share the same memories of the past. We all share a memory of 9-11 occurring on the same day. I am not solipsist, so I don't believe that I am creating your memory of that. A bit like a Dungeons and Dragons game. We each take on roles and play a game, agreeing to certain rules. Linearity is one of those rules. If and when we shift into a higher dimension experience, then we would agree to experience time differently. It's hard for me to imagine what that would be like, but it would be more quantum rather than linear. So within the context of this game, in which we agreed to experience linearity, I'd say it is contextually true that I was punched in the face. , and I actually perceive it as my interpretation of an event, created by my subconscious for my benefit: a lesson and a guidance. It isn't solipsism, at all, as a newborn, a preschooler, a student, ... who would recognize their limited level of comprehension, aren't solipsists. It is what the Delphic maxims point to: know what you are; don't exceed it; if you do then there's suffering. A slightly different way of explaining my view. You believe that we are here to learn, like in a 'school' right? Well, to go with that analogy, I'm suggesting that your 'level or 'grade' of learning comes with certain rules, and it's those rules that enable you to learn and grow in the ways that you are interested in. In a sense, your 'classroom' is the template/format that I mentioned, and linearity would be part of that template/format. And it sounds like you have probably learned a tremendous amount, and perhaps your learnings are actually more reflective of a class above you. But the format of your classroom remains unchanged. For example, the politicians of our world remain incompetent lol. So I'm speculating that to some extent, the application of those learnings doesn't wholly apply to your current classroom. |
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Post by justlikeyou on Jan 21, 2024 21:15:50 GMT -5
Let me me flog the damn horse again, you don't know 100% what you actually are, so there is a belief in that. You take your body and mind, with all its beliefs, thoughts and memories, as absolute proof of your personal existence. As proof that you are. That you exist. And that's all fine and good. But why argue with others who look deeper than you do, are more interested in what it is that actually animates the body and enlivens the mind in the first place, before a single thought or belief can even be had? |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 21, 2024 22:03:51 GMT -5
Why are we here? Whatever other planes or dimensions that might exist, why is the material vibration the most significant? Why do we incarnate? What is it about time and space that teaches? I can think any thought whatsoever, feel anything, but thoughts or feelings are insignificant compared to doing, to bodily actions. We are coming up to a crossroads. We can't turn right or left until we actually get to the crossroads. Until our body gets to the crossroads. Until our body gets to the crossroads, in time and space. Until our body gets to the crossroads in time and space, in the present moment. Bhagavan Das said it pretty well, "Be here now". (He got that from Neem Karoli Baba). I read that book exactly 50 years ago. I read The Tao Te Ching exactly 50 years ago.
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Post by inavalan on Jan 21, 2024 23:12:47 GMT -5
I respect your right to your opinion, and I actually perceive it as my interpretation of an event, created by my subconscious for my benefit: a lesson and a guidance. It isn't solipsism, at all, as a newborn, a preschooler, a student, ... who would recognize their limited level of comprehension, aren't solipsists. It is what the Delphic maxims point to: know what you are; don't exceed it; if you do then there's suffering. To clarify, solipsism in this case would be, 'I am responsible for the memory that you are experiencing'. For me, that would be an overly simplistic way of explaining why you are experiencing the memory that you are experiencing. If you don't believe in linearity, why do you trust your memory at all? It seems to me that trust in memory assumes 'likelihood', and likelihood is only possible, if linearity is believed to be the case. If we hadn't agreed to experience linearity, why do we even have memory? I respect your right to your opinion, ... A slightly different way of explaining my view. You believe that we are here to learn, like in a 'school' right? Well, to go with that analogy, I'm suggesting that your 'level or 'grade' of learning comes with certain rules, and it's those rules that enable you to learn and grow in the ways that you are interested in. In a sense, your 'classroom' is the template/format that I mentioned, and linearity would be part of that template/format. And it sounds like you have probably learned a tremendous amount, and perhaps your learnings are actually more reflective of a class above you. But the format of your classroom remains unchanged. For example, the politicians of our world remain incompetent lol. So I'm speculating that to some extent, the application of those learnings doesn't wholly apply to your current classroom. One by one: No. My subconscious gives me access only to my memory. Your subconscious gives you access only to your memory. Our subconsciouses are interconnected, for now, because our beliefs and expectations create a situation / reality that satisfies the needs of both of us. We don't experience identical realities, and there is an endless number of other realities for the same point in time, 3d-space, identities. In altered states of consciousness, one can project, focus in others' memories; his subconscious allows conscious contact with other subconsciouses and their memories, but this is beyond the point of this discussion (I experienced it). It isn't that I trust my memory. I work with the memory that my subconscious gives me access to. I have no choice in this matter. There is belief in time linearity and causality only as a learning framework. Actually, your current beliefs determine the past that you read from your memory. The cause is created to justify the effect. I am what my memory tells me that I am. I may or may not have experienced what my memory tells me that I did. I may actually unconsiously jump form one point of the physical hyperspace to another with no continuity, including back and fore in time, and forming new identities / fragments, according to the needs of evolvement of my entity; and this just by changing the memory that I am allowed to access. Linearity is observed but it isn't real, as causality is observed but it actually works from the effect to the cause, changing the past to fit the present beliefs and expectations. There isn't a classroom attended by a group of entities. There is my entity's current level that causes temporary inner associations with some entities that have objectives that interlock (for example a victim with a victimizer). But, I experience only the reality created by my own subconscious. Politicians in my reality seem incompetent because this satisfies my unconscious needs to learn in evolve, that offers me lessons, and tests my progress, from which I can draw guidance. Everything that I experience applies to my entity's needs as it participate in this learning framework. Everything that attracts my attention should be the object of my interpretation, as deep as possible, for learning. |
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Post by lolly on Jan 22, 2024 0:25:42 GMT -5
Notice how in the examples there is a house (while ownership is cited as the belief)? Ah, perhaps you were following that dialog about assumptions.  .. but thanks, yes, I didn't think to note that specifically. So it seems people are aware of what is a given compared to whatever they believe. |
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Post by lolly on Jan 22, 2024 0:29:04 GMT -5
I don't know about you guys, but I know this is what it's like and have no doubt about it.
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Post by laughter on Jan 22, 2024 8:37:18 GMT -5
I'm really okay with the idea that I have beliefs (or that there are beliefs being stored in my consciousness/brain etc). It makes sense to me. I believe that our beliefs create our reality, so the floor that I am apparently walking on, is ultimately a product of belief, and I believe the floor will support me, and I won't tumble through it, spinning into a vortex of eternal space lol. But, there's a difference between having beliefs, and experiencing beliefs. And I think that what the folks you are talking to here are saying is that they don't 'experience' belief. I don't really experience 'beliefs' much either. I think I might be right in saying that the experience of a belief comes with an experience of projecting ourselves into the future or past, and in contrast, when we are experiencing ourselves as present...or presence....in the moment, there's no experience of belief. When you are meditating, are you experiencing belief? (Again, I understand that there are beliefs there somewhere). But even when you think that "you are in the moment" you actually experience that as a belief, don't you? This is because you can't be in the moment for any amount of time: that moment instantly became past and you just recall it. Then when you get out of meditating, you recall an experience. There is no way to know that you really had it, or you made it up, or it was somehow implanted, dreamed, imagined, whatever word illustrates it better for you. Not experiencing beliefs is just an assessment, honest maybe, but it doesn't make it truth. The Present is not an interval of time. It is eternal, and completely sideways to time. Any given instant, free of thought of future or past, is a sort of shadow, a hint of the Present. |
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Post by laughter on Jan 22, 2024 8:40:20 GMT -5
Have you ever been punched in the face? No, you haven't, or you couldn't write this. lol I have. Maybe that does explain some things!  |
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Post by laughter on Jan 22, 2024 22:19:55 GMT -5
Ah, perhaps you were following that dialog about assumptions. .. but thanks, yes, I didn't think to note that specifically. So it seems people are aware of what is a given compared to whatever they believe. If approached with something similar to your meditation, it is as direct a path as possible. If approached with mind it can be an endless bunny warren. The Flat Earth dealio is one such example. |
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.. but thanks, yes, I didn't think to note that specifically. 
