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Post by inavalan on Jan 21, 2024 13:16:49 GMT -5
belief /bĭ-lēf′/ noun 1. The mental act, condition, or habit of placing trust or confidence in another. "My belief in you is as strong as ever." 2. Mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validity of something. "His explanation of what happened defies belief." 3.Something believed or accepted as true, especially a particular tenet or a body of tenets accepted by a group of persons. --- The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition • More at Wordnik
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Post by inavalan on Jan 21, 2024 13:42:25 GMT -5
It doesn't just seem that way to me because you have already stated that you had the flu, you acknowledge ownership of your house etc. These are self referential beliefs that reflect what you are that can own a house and bash your toe and get the flu. It doesn't matter like said above if you have an exact pin point belief that refers to what it is that you are exactly. It doesn't matter one bit. You still put a plaster in a gaping wound, you still drink water so you don't die of thirst etc. All reflecting a self referential belief in oneself. The horse is dead, so why keep beating it? Many of us don't agree with the way you define either "thoughts" or "beliefs." We understand what you think and how you define various words, and maybe what you think about reality or selfhood are beliefs from your POV, but they're not beliefs in the way that we use that word. I often tell people that I have no beliefs, but people who haven't had any existential insights don't believe me.  When I stub my toe, I don't "believe" that I stubbed my toe; I know it because it's a direct experience. No conceptual reflection is necessary, and a belief is a conceptual reflection in the way that most people on this forum define, use, and understand that word. E used to define a belief as "a strong attachment to a thought," but if the mind is silent and there are no thoughts, or if there is no attachment to thoughts, then the idea of a belief never arises. As JLY pointed out, a baby has no beliefs, and an ND sage, whose mind is silent, also has no beliefs. A ND sage interacts with what we call "reality" directly, as reality, so reflective thinking may occur but it's not necessary. Let's agree to disagree about this issue and move on. FWIW, when the sense of "me" vanished in 1999, and this character, as THIS, realized that THIS is all there is, all kinds of subtle past self-referential thinking patterns fell away and never returned. You can be made to believe that you stubbed your toe and feel the pain, or that you didn't and not feel it. That isn't a reliable experience, and there is no reliable experience, just a memory of it. There is no "direct" as you qualified it, except if you define it through a set of assumptions. It is okay to believe whatever you can, but it isn't okay to call it truth and sell it like it is, as many honestly do. That kind of ignorance brings suffering both to the truth peddler and to the peddlee. |
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Post by tenka on Jan 21, 2024 14:38:58 GMT -5
It doesn't just seem that way to me because you have already stated that you had the flu, you acknowledge ownership of your house etc. These are self referential beliefs that reflect what you are that can own a house and bash your toe and get the flu. It doesn't matter like said above if you have an exact pin point belief that refers to what it is that you are exactly. It doesn't matter one bit. You still put a plaster in a gaping wound, you still drink water so you don't die of thirst etc. All reflecting a self referential belief in oneself. The horse is dead, so why keep beating it? Many of us don't agree with the way you define either "thoughts" or "beliefs." We understand what you think and how you define various words, and maybe what you think about reality or selfhood are beliefs from your POV, but they're not beliefs in the way that we use that word. I often tell people that I have no beliefs, but people who haven't had any existential insights don't believe me. When I stub my toe, I don't "believe" that I stubbed my toe; I know it because it's a direct experience. No conceptual reflection is necessary, and a belief is a conceptual reflection in the way that most people on this forum define, use, and understand that word. E used to define a belief as "a strong attachment to a thought," but if the mind is silent and there are no thoughts, or if there is no attachment to thoughts, then the idea of a belief never arises. As JLY pointed out, a baby has no beliefs, and an ND sage, whose mind is silent, also has no beliefs. A ND sage interacts with what we call "reality" directly, as reality, so reflective thinking may occur but it's not necessary. Let's agree to disagree about this issue and move on. FWIW, when the sense of "me" vanished in 1999, and this character, as THIS, realized that THIS is all there is, all kinds of subtle past self-referential thinking patterns fell away and never returned. I don't care what a few non dualists think in regards to my definition of words. The thing is, is that we all believe what we believe things to mean. You have just illustrated this perfectly. You just resonate with a few other's in regards to what conceptual words mean. That's all. I keep flogging the dead horse cos it appears peeps don't actually understand what a belief system means and qualifies as.. Let me me flog the damn horse again, you don't know 100% what you actually are, so there is a belief in that. The belief system in effect reflects what you believe yourself to be that can stub your toe in the first place. It's no good stating you have a direct experience of it if for example you believe you are just an appearance of a person. You have to have a belief in place that encompasses an experience where what you are can stub their toe. Beyond the self and mind there is no experience of banging your toe. There is no reference to you or the toe. So we have to be mindful of our experience. You said you directly experience bashing your toe. So what is it that bangs their toe. You don't know do you. What you don't know 100% to be true is a belief. It's not that difficult to understand. |
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Post by andrew on Jan 21, 2024 15:12:41 GMT -5
The horse is dead, so why keep beating it? Many of us don't agree with the way you define either "thoughts" or "beliefs." We understand what you think and how you define various words, and maybe what you think about reality or selfhood are beliefs from your POV, but they're not beliefs in the way that we use that word. I often tell people that I have no beliefs, but people who haven't had any existential insights don't believe me. When I stub my toe, I don't "believe" that I stubbed my toe; I know it because it's a direct experience. No conceptual reflection is necessary, and a belief is a conceptual reflection in the way that most people on this forum define, use, and understand that word. E used to define a belief as "a strong attachment to a thought," but if the mind is silent and there are no thoughts, or if there is no attachment to thoughts, then the idea of a belief never arises. As JLY pointed out, a baby has no beliefs, and an ND sage, whose mind is silent, also has no beliefs. A ND sage interacts with what we call "reality" directly, as reality, so reflective thinking may occur but it's not necessary. Let's agree to disagree about this issue and move on. FWIW, when the sense of "me" vanished in 1999, and this character, as THIS, realized that THIS is all there is, all kinds of subtle past self-referential thinking patterns fell away and never returned. I don't care what a few non dualists think in regards to my definition of words. The thing is, is that we all believe what we believe things to mean. You have just illustrated this perfectly. You just resonate with a few other's in regards to what conceptual words mean. That's all. I keep flogging the dead horse cos it appears peeps don't actually understand what a belief system means and qualifies as.. Let me me flog the damn horse again, you don't know 100% what you actually are, so there is a belief in that. The belief system in effect reflects what you believe yourself to be that can stub your toe in the first place. It's no good stating you have a direct experience of it if for example you believe you are just an appearance of a person. You have to have a belief in place that encompasses an experience where what you are can stub their toe. Beyond the self and mind there is no experience of banging your toe. There is no reference to you or the toe. So we have to be mindful of our experience. You said you directly experience bashing your toe. So what is it that bangs their toe. You don't know do you. What you don't know 100% to be true is a belief. It's not that difficult to understand. I'm really okay with the idea that I have beliefs (or that there are beliefs being stored in my consciousness/brain etc). It makes sense to me. I believe that our beliefs create our reality, so the floor that I am apparently walking on, is ultimately a product of belief, and I believe the floor will support me, and I won't tumble through it, spinning into a vortex of eternal space lol. But, there's a difference between having beliefs, and experiencing beliefs. And I think that what the folks you are talking to here are saying is that they don't 'experience' belief. I don't really experience 'beliefs' much either. I think I might be right in saying that the experience of a belief comes with an experience of projecting ourselves into the future or past, and in contrast, when we are experiencing ourselves as present...or presence....in the moment, there's no experience of belief. When you are meditating, are you experiencing belief? (Again, I understand that there are beliefs there somewhere). |
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Post by inavalan on Jan 21, 2024 15:30:12 GMT -5
I don't care what a few non dualists think in regards to my definition of words. The thing is, is that we all believe what we believe things to mean. You have just illustrated this perfectly. You just resonate with a few other's in regards to what conceptual words mean. That's all. I keep flogging the dead horse cos it appears peeps don't actually understand what a belief system means and qualifies as.. Let me me flog the damn horse again, you don't know 100% what you actually are, so there is a belief in that. The belief system in effect reflects what you believe yourself to be that can stub your toe in the first place. It's no good stating you have a direct experience of it if for example you believe you are just an appearance of a person. You have to have a belief in place that encompasses an experience where what you are can stub their toe. Beyond the self and mind there is no experience of banging your toe. There is no reference to you or the toe. So we have to be mindful of our experience. You said you directly experience bashing your toe. So what is it that bangs their toe. You don't know do you. What you don't know 100% to be true is a belief. It's not that difficult to understand. I'm really okay with the idea that I have beliefs (or that there are beliefs being stored in my consciousness/brain etc). It makes sense to me. I believe that our beliefs create our reality, so the floor that I am apparently walking on, is ultimately a product of belief, and I believe the floor will support me, and I won't tumble through it, spinning into a vortex of eternal space lol. But, there's a difference between having beliefs, and experiencing beliefs. And I think that what the folks you are talking to here are saying is that they don't 'experience' belief. I don't really experience 'beliefs' much either. I think I might be right in saying that the experience of a belief comes with an experience of projecting ourselves into the future or past, and in contrast, when we are experiencing ourselves as present...or presence....in the moment, there's no experience of belief. When you are meditating, are you experiencing belief? (Again, I understand that there are beliefs there somewhere). But even when you think that "you are in the moment" you actually experience that as a belief, don't you? This is because you can't be in the moment for any amount of time: that moment instantly became past and you just recall it. Then when you get out of meditating, you recall an experience. There is no way to know that you really had it, or you made it up, or it was somehow implanted, dreamed, imagined, whatever word illustrates it better for you. Not experiencing beliefs is just an assessment, honest maybe, but it doesn't make it truth. |
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Post by andrew on Jan 21, 2024 15:44:52 GMT -5
I'm really okay with the idea that I have beliefs (or that there are beliefs being stored in my consciousness/brain etc). It makes sense to me. I believe that our beliefs create our reality, so the floor that I am apparently walking on, is ultimately a product of belief, and I believe the floor will support me, and I won't tumble through it, spinning into a vortex of eternal space lol. But, there's a difference between having beliefs, and experiencing beliefs. And I think that what the folks you are talking to here are saying is that they don't 'experience' belief. I don't really experience 'beliefs' much either. I think I might be right in saying that the experience of a belief comes with an experience of projecting ourselves into the future or past, and in contrast, when we are experiencing ourselves as present...or presence....in the moment, there's no experience of belief. When you are meditating, are you experiencing belief? (Again, I understand that there are beliefs there somewhere). But even when you think that "you are in the moment" you actually experience that as a belief, don't you? This is because you can't be in the moment for any amount of time: that moment instantly became past and you just recall it. Then when you get out of meditating, you recall an experience. There is no way to know that you really had it, or you made it up, or it was somehow implanted, dreamed, imagined, whatever word illustrates it better for you. Not experiencing beliefs is just an assessment, honest maybe, but it doesn't make it truth. well, I'd say the truth is that there are beliefs 'there somewhere'. But if I describe the quality (or qualia) of my experience, then it's also true to say that I'm not experiencing beliefs (though sometimes I am). I have sympathy for both sides. It genuinely seems to some folks here that they don't have beliefs, because there's no sense of 'belief'. There's no 'belief' qualia. There's no 'feeling' of believing something. If beliefs are stored in the brain, or in their consciousness somewhere, it's just not relevant to them. It's one of those things that boils down to spiritual interest/focus e.g a 'Zen' path will always direct people away from the experience of 'belief'. |
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Post by zendancer on Jan 21, 2024 16:32:52 GMT -5
The horse is dead, so why keep beating it? Many of us don't agree with the way you define either "thoughts" or "beliefs." We understand what you think and how you define various words, and maybe what you think about reality or selfhood are beliefs from your POV, but they're not beliefs in the way that we use that word. I often tell people that I have no beliefs, but people who haven't had any existential insights don't believe me. When I stub my toe, I don't "believe" that I stubbed my toe; I know it because it's a direct experience. No conceptual reflection is necessary, and a belief is a conceptual reflection in the way that most people on this forum define, use, and understand that word. E used to define a belief as "a strong attachment to a thought," but if the mind is silent and there are no thoughts, or if there is no attachment to thoughts, then the idea of a belief never arises. As JLY pointed out, a baby has no beliefs, and an ND sage, whose mind is silent, also has no beliefs. A ND sage interacts with what we call "reality" directly, as reality, so reflective thinking may occur but it's not necessary. Let's agree to disagree about this issue and move on. FWIW, when the sense of "me" vanished in 1999, and this character, as THIS, realized that THIS is all there is, all kinds of subtle past self-referential thinking patterns fell away and never returned. I don't care what a few non dualists think in regards to my definition of words. The thing is, is that we all believe what we believe things to mean. You have just illustrated this perfectly. You just resonate with a few other's in regards to what conceptual words mean. That's all. I keep flogging the dead horse cos it appears peeps don't actually understand what a belief system means and qualifies as.. Let me me flog the damn horse again, you don't know 100% what you actually are, so there is a belief in that. The belief system in effect reflects what you believe yourself to be that can stub your toe in the first place. It's no good stating you have a direct experience of it if for example you believe you are just an appearance of a person. You have to have a belief in place that encompasses an experience where what you are can stub their toe. Beyond the self and mind there is no experience of banging your toe. There is no reference to you or the toe. So we have to be mindful of our experience. You said you directly experience bashing your toe. So what is it that bangs their toe. You don't know do you. What you don't know 100% to be true is a belief. It's not that difficult to understand. OK. Keep flogging away, but the horse is definitely dead. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 21, 2024 17:00:31 GMT -5
I'm really okay with the idea that I have beliefs (or that there are beliefs being stored in my consciousness/brain etc). It makes sense to me. I believe that our beliefs create our reality, so the floor that I am apparently walking on, is ultimately a product of belief, and I believe the floor will support me, and I won't tumble through it, spinning into a vortex of eternal space lol. But, there's a difference between having beliefs, and experiencing beliefs. And I think that what the folks you are talking to here are saying is that they don't 'experience' belief. I don't really experience 'beliefs' much either. I think I might be right in saying that the experience of a belief comes with an experience of projecting ourselves into the future or past, and in contrast, when we are experiencing ourselves as present...or presence....in the moment, there's no experience of belief. When you are meditating, are you experiencing belief? (Again, I understand that there are beliefs there somewhere). This is because you can't be in the moment for any amount of time: that moment instantly became past and you just recall it. Then when you get out of meditating, you recall an experience. There is no way to know that you really had it, or you made it up, or it was somehow implanted, dreamed, imagined, whatever word illustrates it better for you. Not experiencing beliefs is just an assessment, honest maybe, but it doesn't make it truth. Have you ever been punched in the face? No, you haven't, or you couldn't write this. |
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Post by andrew on Jan 21, 2024 17:04:15 GMT -5
But even when you think that "you are in the moment" you actually experience that as a belief, don't you? This is because you can't be in the moment for any amount of time: that moment instantly became past and you just recall it. Then when you get out of meditating, you recall an experience. There is no way to know that you really had it, or you made it up, or it was somehow implanted, dreamed, imagined, whatever word illustrates it better for you. Not experiencing beliefs is just an assessment, honest maybe, but it doesn't make it truth. Have you ever been punched in the face? No, you haven't, or you couldn't write this. lol I have. Maybe that does explain some things! |
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Post by inavalan on Jan 21, 2024 17:10:07 GMT -5
But even when you think that "you are in the moment" you actually experience that as a belief, don't you? This is because you can't be in the moment for any amount of time: that moment instantly became past and you just recall it. Then when you get out of meditating, you recall an experience. There is no way to know that you really had it, or you made it up, or it was somehow implanted, dreamed, imagined, whatever word illustrates it better for you. Not experiencing beliefs is just an assessment, honest maybe, but it doesn't make it truth. . isn't an argument for anything. I have never been punched in the face. EDIT: I experience what I believe. Believing isn't denying something. For reference, see the definition I posted earlier today. link |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 21, 2024 17:14:01 GMT -5
Have you ever been punched in the face? No, you haven't, or you couldn't write this. isn't an argument for anything. I have never been punched in the face. I rest my case. |
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Post by inavalan on Jan 21, 2024 17:40:49 GMT -5
Have you ever been punched in the face? No, you haven't, or you couldn't write this. lol I have. Maybe that does explain some things! It goes both ways ... You believe that you've been punched in the face. It isn't a truth. It is your recollection. Your past is created from the present to match your current beliefs and needs of evolvement. Your past is only yours; and for you it is "the" past. In the Niz vs. the painter q&a, among other good insights. link- You imagine that the picture must come from the painter who actually painted it. All the time you look for origins and causes. Causality is in the mind, only; memory gives the illusion of continuity and repetitiveness creates the idea of causality.
- V: Is ' I Am' and 'There is' the same thing?
M:" ' I Am' denotes the inner, 'there is'- the outer. Both are based on the sense of being. "
V: Is it the same as the experience of existence?
M:" To exist, means to be something, a thing, a feeling, a thought, an idea. All existence is particular. Only Being, is universal, in the sense that every being is compatible with every other being. Existences clash, Being -never.
- V: I can see that my world is subjective. Does it make it also illusory?
M:" It is illusory as long as it is subjective and to that extent only. Reality lies in objectivity. "
V: What does objectivity mean? You said that the world is subjective and now you talk of objectivity. Is not everything subjective?
M:" Everything is subjective, but the real is objective. "
V: In what sense?
M:" It does not depend on memories and expectations, desires, and fears, likes and dislikes. All is seen as it is."
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Post by inavalan on Jan 21, 2024 17:44:22 GMT -5
That isn't an argument for anything. I have never been punched in the face. EDIT: I experience what I believe. Believing isn't denying something. For reference, see the definition I posted earlier today. link I rest my case. You may rest it, but you haven't made any point, excepting that your view of reality is different than mine. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 21, 2024 18:02:30 GMT -5
You may rest it, but you haven't made any point, excepting that your view of reality is different than mine. You really do need to do something to ~get out of your head~. Have you not ever tried to ~meditate~? Take two minutes, right now. The simplest thing, just watch your breath. Sit, relaxed, breath in your nose, out your mouth. Sense the air coming in your nose, sense the air coming out your mouth. You can change it up, sense your chest rise-lungs fill as you breath in, chest sink-lungs empty, as you exhale. ~~~~~~` You will not get 3 seconds until a word-thought comes up, but just go back to sensing your breath. Try for two minutes, you will not get past 4 seconds without a thought entering your mind. Try it five minutes, you will not get past five seconds, merely sensing your breath. Five minutes is enough at one time. And while you are doing this, you don't know you have a left foot, you don't experience your left foot. Throughout your day, you never know you have a left foot. Because you live in your head. Just try it. Another thing you can try, try threading a needle. |
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Post by andrew on Jan 21, 2024 18:16:42 GMT -5
lol I have. Maybe that does explain some things! It goes both ways ... You believe that you've been punched in the face. It isn't a truth. It is your recollection. Your past is created from the present to match your current beliefs and needs of evolvement. Your past is only yours; and for you it is "the" past. I see this differently. I believe that, as a group of souls, we have incarnated at this time to create and experience a particular format/template, that comes with certain rules. And one of those rules is linearity. So while, in the broadest sense, I agree with you that this linearity isn't happening, we create the very real impression that it is. And we create consistency to go with that. Hence why, we all share the same memories of the past. We all share a memory of 9-11 occurring on the same day. I am not solipsist, so I don't believe that I am creating your memory of that. A bit like a Dungeons and Dragons game. We each take on roles and play a game, agreeing to certain rules. Linearity is one of those rules. If and when we shift into a higher dimension experience, then we would agree to experience time differently. It's hard for me to imagine what that would be like, but it would be more quantum rather than linear. So within the context of this game, in which we agreed to experience linearity, I'd say it is contextually true that I was punched in the face. It's also contextually true that your mother gave birth to you, and that your body evolved along a pretty standard ageing line. You were an infant, a child, a teenager, a young adult, an adult etc....That's not JUST your memory in this moment making up that process of ageing, that process was part of the template/format of this reality that we have all agreed to experience. |
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