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Post by andrew on Sept 5, 2023 20:27:57 GMT -5
I was around 31 when I received a particular healing/energy attunement...I didn't really know what I was doing or getting myself into it. I liked the look of it and dived in, without much exploration. It was an attunement spread over 2 days and I walked out at the end, knowing that something had irreversibly changed within me, but without knowing what it was. It was quite frightening.
I had a girlfriend at the time. I had a love for her, but I sensed even before the attunement that it didn't have a long term future, but there also wasn't compelling reason to break up. I liked her, enjoyed her company. In the weeks following the attunement, I began to have difficulty driving to see her. I mean that literally. I'd drive an hour and find my foot coming off the pedal. I'd fidget and twitch in the seat. I'd grit my teeth, focus my mind, and force my body to drive, and there were times I would get there, and times I'd have to just give up. Once or twice I threw up in the attempt to get there. At no point did I stop loving her or liking her, I had no way of explaining to her with any lucidity what was happening, as I didn't understand it myself.
Eventually the relationship died. I couldn't physically be with her. And again, I mean that literally. She met someone new before I did. 2 years later I met my wife. That unfolded intuitively.
I believe part of what happened with the attunement is that it strengthened the intuitive sense. It made it physically compelling. I have a bunch of other stories from around that time that also illustrate this. I sought help from various people, but none of it dampened that compelling physical intuitive sense, at most it just helped me with acceptance around the unfolding.
It became very apparent at that time that there are forces stronger than my personal will, stronger than my personal wants, stronger than my ego, stronger than my fears. I saw that 'choice' is kind of a luxurious illusion.
Happy end to the story is that I am friends with my ex today, we chat sometimes and she turns to me when she has a problems that other people can't easily relate to. She knows that I am weird enough to understand and accept everything.
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Post by inavalan on Sept 5, 2023 21:49:12 GMT -5
- intuition = direct perception of truth, fact, etc., independent of any reasoning process
- gestalt = a configuration, pattern, or organized field having specific properties that cannot be derived from the summation of its component parts
Man perceives a physical reality through his five outer senses (as inputs), and he responds to that through instincts, emotions, intellect (as processes). The non-physical part of man's personality perceives the inner reality through his inner senses, and intuition is tapping into the information and the guidance perceived through those. Intuition provides responses that aren't limited and distorted by time, space, probability, intellect, emotions, instincts. Intuition isn't feelings, impressions, or guessing. When accessing it, to minimize distortions, you need to leave aside your beliefs and expectations. A relaxed state helps too. Once an intent is set, the choices should be made intuitively, and not based on intellect, emotions, instincts. Interestingly, physical-time wise, the more evolved the response to perceptions, the more time it takes. Learning to consciously use the inner senses is one of the goals for incarnating into the physical reality framework. A gestalt of consciousness allows, at each level of consciousness, for the free-will of each element, and for the experience to be determined by the intent of the gestalt. An example of such gestalt is the body consciousness, its elements being the cell consciousnesses. The health of the body isn't determined by the cells' choices, but by the intent at the body level. If a divergence of intents (misalignment) appears between the body consciousness and its cell consciousnesses, between the gestalt and its elements, then those cell consciousness elements leave that body consciousness gestalt, joining other gestalts with which they have better affinity, while their places are taken by other cell consciousnesses. This happens in the same way with man consciousness as element of various gestalts. This means that the reality you experience isn't dependent on what others intent and choose. You create your reality. Another example is when your beliefs make you (a gestalt element) a victim, and in the reality you experience (a gestalt) you associate with a situation that attracts a perpetrator (another gestalt element with affinity to the same gestalt). This happens at consciousness level, and it is materialized, reflected into a (probable) version of the physical reality. The connection victim-perpetrator is established at inner senses level, which aren't limited by time, space, probability. Intuition should allow you to avoid becoming a victim, in given instance, but to avoid any recurrence of such situations, the "victim" has to identify his belief that created that affinity, and remove / replace it. |
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Post by Reefs on Sept 5, 2023 22:55:03 GMT -5
You are confusing the person with the individual again. So the individual is real and the person is not? That's what I've been saying for 14 years, here (essence vs small s self/cultural self). That would imply that you know two contexts. Which you said you don't. |
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Post by lolly on Sept 6, 2023 1:40:49 GMT -5
I think we say 'intuition' to imply some sort of magic element to what we think. I use the word, too, "My intuition tells me...", but it only means I think something. I never did a statistical analysis, but I imagine my intuitions would be wrong about as frequently as any prediction pulled from a hat. They seem magic because one forgets the wrong ones, like , Hh well, and remembers the right ones, like, See? Totally psychic. Gestalt a weird word because no matter how many times I'm told what it means, I still have no it what it means. I did a 101 course on Gestalt psychology, but I always thought that was just the name of the guy who invented it. I don't know exactly what it is, but I can experience it as a physical body phenomenon. For example, I might decide that doing something is a good thing to do, that I should do it...even that I want to do it.... and then as I begin to act on that, I can feel physically pulled away from doing that thing. If I continue to ignore this pull, it intensifies until it cannot be ignored. 15-20 years ago this was much more frequent than it is now, but there were more conflicting forces within me then, than there are now. Yea I can't help agree that there seems to be an intuitive 'feeling', and probably best to follow it, but I think it comes as 'no choice', and if you don't over think things, then intuiting leads the way. I was brought up in a bit rough environment that presented some risks, so I developed some sensitivities that enable me to know what's going down. It's like I get an impression of motives and moods and can sense the vibes before it surfaces as a manifestation, so I know which way to go and what to avoid. Now my life is comfortable and safe so I don't really need it anymore, and I suppose my spidey senses are getting dull from no use, but I can still 'read the room' pretty well. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 6, 2023 10:58:37 GMT -5
So the individual is real and the person is not? That's what I've been saying for 14 years, here (essence vs small s self/cultural self). That would imply that you know two contexts. Which you said you don't. I was trying to put the question (point out), what ~*links*~ the two contexts for GM, or are they completely discontinuous? And explain how that works if they are completely discontinuous. And we don't define terms exactly the same, we don't play on the same field. But that question seems pretty basic. Individual means individuation, for me. That means, not the Whole. I've gone into my view thoroughly in the past. Basically, the individual is a tinier Matryoshka doll. It can gnosis the next bigger doll (if it knows itself, and the tinier doll, simultaneously). And once it knows that doll, it can gnosis the next-bigger doll. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 6, 2023 11:29:57 GMT -5
I think we say 'intuition' to imply some sort of magic element to what we think. I use the word, too, "My intuition tells me...", but it only means I think something. I never did a statistical analysis, but I imagine my intuitions would be wrong about as frequently as any prediction pulled from a hat. They seem magic because one forgets the wrong ones, like , Hh well, and remembers the right ones, like, See? Totally psychic. Gestalt a weird word because no matter how many times I'm told what it means, I still have no it what it means. I did a 101 course on Gestalt psychology, but I always thought that was just the name of the guy who invented it. Sure, it can be a weird thing to try to nail down what it is or express what it's made of, and I would never really go into a convo on its legitimacy, accuracy, or whatever either. I could also say the same about some peeps' reasoning and logic. It can be loaded with unconscious nonsense, highly questionable at times, and all the rest, as well. Everyone uses a sense of intuition everyday and different folks are at different levels of ease with it in activities that one is interested in. You, for example, probably use a sense of it when doing gardening. Zaz might use it in communicative contexts with his pups. SDP when figuring out an optimal wiring schema. And on and on. But, I would say that it is an aspect of mind-filtered Intelligence that could be more instinctual or perhaps more primitive, though not necessarily in a bad way. Some folks just got a sense for certain things. Maybe Inavalan will start to share what s/he considers decent links/visuals for a deeper look into it, or continue to express a preponderance of the evidence for respecting it as a tool. I don't even understand enough about it to get into trouble with, which is a baseline I (unfortunately  ) use a lot. In the meantime, anyone can goog it. No, that seems pretty odd to say. There's rules and laws for everything. If there's a question you look it up in the code book. Basically, you either know what to do or you don't. ....You can't imagine how many ways things can get messed up, a helper twisting the wrong wires together. And you don't find those problems until you check a house out, months, or sometimes a year later. I would tell my helpers, don't get creative on me, if you don't know exactly what to do, ask. Another one of our electricians would say: Don't try to use the Force. |
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Post by sharon on Sept 6, 2023 17:12:59 GMT -5
Ok.. thanks. So it's the dying out of the non successful hominoids, which left the two successful lineages or chromosome continuities? Yes, two different die-offs. First, as you suggest are different "species", the most famous of these being the Neanderthal. But the view of speciation in terms of hominids seems to me to have blurred over the years. And the Neanderthal is a great example of that. There are a myriad of homo-species that span back millions of years prior to the emergence of "anatomically modern" humans. At least that's the current consensus. Then the other isn't really a die-off because those lineages are still with us in one form or another. The past homo sapiens who didn't produce a successful y-chromosome male or mitochondrial female lineage. Some (I have no idea of %/quantity) of their DNA is still with us, just re-combined in such a way as to be not as easy or even impossible to tease out. The y-chromosome and mitochondrial is the focus of the studies because it presents such a clear signal, passed down un-recombined. Even if none of their DNA survives, we wouldn't be the same without them. Things would have happened differently. "However, we do know that Homo sapiens mated with Denisovans numerous times – and that this crossbreeding benefited today’s humans. For instance, the EPAS1 gene variant that modern Tibetans and Sherpas inherited from Denisovans makes them better adapted for living at high altitudes, protecting them from hypoxia (a condition where tissues in the body are deprived of oxygen)." |
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Post by andrew on Sept 6, 2023 20:50:50 GMT -5
I don't know exactly what it is, but I can experience it as a physical body phenomenon. For example, I might decide that doing something is a good thing to do, that I should do it...even that I want to do it.... and then as I begin to act on that, I can feel physically pulled away from doing that thing. If I continue to ignore this pull, it intensifies until it cannot be ignored. 15-20 years ago this was much more frequent than it is now, but there were more conflicting forces within me then, than there are now. Yea I can't help agree that there seems to be an intuitive 'feeling', and probably best to follow it, but I think it comes as 'no choice', and if you don't over think things, then intuiting leads the way. I was brought up in a bit rough environment that presented some risks, so I developed some sensitivities that enable me to know what's going down. It's like I get an impression of motives and moods and can sense the vibes before it surfaces as a manifestation, so I know which way to go and what to avoid. Now my life is comfortable and safe so I don't really need it anymore, and I suppose my spidey senses are getting dull from no use, but I can still 'read the room' pretty well. yes, I can relate to this too. One other form of intuition occurs to me...our capacity to 'feel' probable timelines. For example, the probability of me being in Africa in 2 months time 'feels' like zero. I could give rational reasons why I don't imagine myself there, but the rationale is irrelevant. It just doesn't feel true that I will be going to Africa. (probabilities can shift and change though) |
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Post by Reefs on Sept 6, 2023 22:45:12 GMT -5
That would imply that you know two contexts. Which you said you don't. I was trying to put the question (point out), what ~*links*~ the two contexts for GM, or are they completely discontinuous? And explain how that works if they are completely discontinuous. And we don't define terms exactly the same, we don't play on the same field. But that question seems pretty basic. Individual means individuation, for me. That means, not the Whole. I've gone into my view thoroughly in the past. Basically, the individual is a tinier Matryoshka doll. It can gnosis the next bigger doll (if it knows itself, and the tinier doll, simultaneously). And once it knows that doll, it can gnosis the next-bigger doll. What's the link between the fish and the ocean? What's the link between the crest of the wave and the wave? There is no link. One is included in the other. Similarly, the personal is included in the impersonal. It's just a way that allows us to talk about What-Is. These distinctions have to be left behind at some point. It has to be seen directly. That's the difference between truth and truthin'. Your Matryoshka model is basically Inavalan's Gestalt model. So what you guys are interested is the phenomenology of reality or consciousness, i.e. how it appears (its forms, shapes and structures and functions). What we are pointing to is the ultimate nature of reality or consciousness, i.e. what it actually is. This is why your focus is on higher states of being and how to reach them via certain paths of action by moving thru time, which is a matter of experience; while our focus is on the natural state, the eternal Now, which is a matter of realization, not experience. And so you value practice, while we have no use for it. So you are right, we don't play on the same field. The field you are playing on, we are not interested in. And the field we are playing on, you have no awareness of at all (and therefore no interest in). Because the field you are playing on is the field of objects, appearances. The field we are playing on is the field prior to objects, prior to appearances. In Wei Wu Wei's terms, what you are interested in is the 'I' as object. What we are interested in is the 'I' as subject. Which brings us back to your initial question. The object is the manifested part of the subject, of course. And so the object does not exist in its own right. Only the subject exists in its own right. Therefore, in that sense, the object is not real, the object only appears to exist. Only the subject is real, and only the subject does not appear to exist. And so ultimately, it is this apparently existing object that in reality IS not (your playing field), and it is this apparently non-existent subject that in reality IS (our playing field). This is what is meant by seeing the real as real and the false as false. Your current perspective is seeing the false as real and the real as false. That error in perception has to be corrected. And it will be corrected in the event of SR. All it takes is a little tweaking of perspective, putting the horse before the cart again, so to speak. That's all. It's not that complicated. Liberation is an instantaneous, radical shift of perspective. People make too much of this. They apply thinking to what is prior to thinking. And so they imagine all kinds of things that have no place here, adding legs to a snake. And then liberation becomes this kind of long, laborious journey thru realms and realms of experiences (aka imagination) where you never arrive at something actual, only more imagination. Yes, there is no end to experiences, different levels and depths that can be explored (which can be fun, no doubt), but there is only one true nature. And you've either seen into your true nature or you haven't. And if you haven't, then you can't fully enjoy the exploring. But if you have, then the exploring suddenly becomes truly enjoyable. So, first things first. First you need to get your bearings. Which means you need to know who you really are and where you are going. Which means you have to accept the false as false and the real as real. Then you are free to explore without the risk of getting lost. Unfortunately, all the intricate paths and practices to liberation you read and hear about have been compiled by people who are lost, who don't know who they really are or where they are going. So how could they be helpful (except in giving you another example of what doesn't work)? |
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Post by inavalan on Sept 6, 2023 23:23:01 GMT -5
... Basically, the individual is a tinier Matryoshka doll. It can gnosis the next bigger doll (if it knows itself, and the tinier doll, simultaneously). And once it knows that doll, it can gnosis the next-bigger doll. ... Your Matryoshka model is basically Inavalan's Gestalt model. ... No. It isn't. |
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Post by laughter on Sept 7, 2023 3:26:29 GMT -5
Yes, two different die-offs. First, as you suggest are different "species", the most famous of these being the Neanderthal. But the view of speciation in terms of hominids seems to me to have blurred over the years. And the Neanderthal is a great example of that. There are a myriad of homo-species that span back millions of years prior to the emergence of "anatomically modern" humans. At least that's the current consensus. Then the other isn't really a die-off because those lineages are still with us in one form or another. The past homo sapiens who didn't produce a successful y-chromosome male or mitochondrial female lineage. Some (I have no idea of %/quantity) of their DNA is still with us, just re-combined in such a way as to be not as easy or even impossible to tease out. The y-chromosome and mitochondrial is the focus of the studies because it presents such a clear signal, passed down un-recombined. Even if none of their DNA survives, we wouldn't be the same without them. Things would have happened differently. "However, we do know that Homo sapiens mated with Denisovans numerous times – and that this crossbreeding benefited today’s humans. For instance, the EPAS1 gene variant that modern Tibetans and Sherpas inherited from Denisovans makes them better adapted for living at high altitudes, protecting them from hypoxia (a condition where tissues in the body are deprived of oxygen)." Yes, great example, and the science that results in these sorts of insights is likely still in a relative state of infancy. As I recall the discovery of the Denisovians is less than five years old. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 7, 2023 10:35:59 GMT -5
What is intuition for unless it guides one to a more-objective reality? The sense of intuition you seem to like to use for understanding a more-objective reality is likely related to your apparent desire for a more all-encompassing map for understanding how/why things happen. I wager that you are a great and dependable electrician, and deeply respectful of and fascinated by the cause-effect relationships of electricity and/or energy. The pragmatics are aligned with such specific contexts, and not so interested in collapsing the boundaries of existential contexts. In the former contexts on electricity, any disrespect for the boundaries of physics brings on calamities, even life-threatening. Mayhaps you relate such danger with where your mind was at the edge of sanity back pre-1975. That's why I suggested the exploration of an emotional block, which could also be related to some childhood trauma, dunno. I've always been more curious about what you consider to be the cause-effect of how/why your mind was pulled away from that potential, fateful decision. There's someNothing there worth some present gratitude that might offer some intuitive appreciation for a conscious psychological death and conscious rebirth of something of an individuated eternity. There isn't a more encompassing map than the Gurdjieff teaching, and I know it from the inside out. I even had had some experiences that upon reading In Search of the Miraculous the first time I understood immediately. Second paragraph, there aren't any significant existential questions that cannot ultimately be answered. But yes, dealing with electricity is dangerous, can be very dangerous, yes, life-threatening dangerous. Yes, I had a childhood ~trauma~ which is never very far from my mind, I've considered it probably had a significant effect. My Grandpa T was my whole life. I could pull up at least 15 memories of being with him, on his egg route where a Chinese cook gave me an almond cookie, on his sweet potato slip route, begging for a small garden shovel, he bought it for me, going to a cow auction, going to the feed store in charlotte, FCX, chasing chickens so they could be vaccinated, hiding my clothes under his bed so my parents couldn't take me home (he and Grandma lived up the hill from us about 100 yards), drinking coffee with him, he would make it weak for me, and he would pour his into a saucer to cool, his buying a Mickey Mouse blue jean coat, Mickey Mouse was the lining, he bought me a double barrel pop gun when I had my tonsils removed, he took care of my face when my cousin knocked over a bare lamp at his house, burning my face, pulling potato slips, his putting a candle in a biscuit for my birthday, and minute later almost burnt our house down, I lit the fabric under our couch with the candle, I remember telling him and my Mother, don't go in there (  ), sitting in the steering wheel of his truck. All those just the top of my head, I can see every one in my mind. I can also see Uncle Jerry walking up the sidewalk at our neighbors, Mother and I were on the steps at the house. Jerry was crying, he said, Bet, Daddy's dead. And I remember, they took me to that same neighbor for Grandpa's funeral, which was at home. I remember looking out the window, seeing tons of cars, and wondering why I wasn't there. I was four when he died, 4 years 5 months old, he was 64, picking apples, he sat down on a stump and had a heart attack (I don't remember that part, was told). Odd thing, I always knew where he died, never discussed it, never recalled anybody ever saying, that's where your Grandpa died. I also knew there was a sandbox in the yard, and a set of swings. Then maybe about eight years ago Mama told me I had been with Grandpa that morning, there with him picking apples, same yard. Mama said my cousin Karen begged to be with Grandpa, so they took her and brought me back. Incidentally, Mother also told me that Grandpa had been a pastor of a church for about a year, otherwise he was just a farmer. My (former) wife had played at a funeral at Cold Springs Baptist Church in Concord, I happened to go with her, which I did from time to time, and telling her, Mama said, Oh, that's where your Grandpa was pastor for a while (during the depression). That kind of blew my mind. So I've considered all that from time to time. I think it's quite possible that sort of insulated me from life somehow, made me an Outsider, a loner. And I've probably not written about this before. When it got desperate, in 1976, after a year of desperate off and on, I said to myself, I don't care if I live or die. And something clicked, I repeated it, and then I just said (to myself), I might as well live. There was a kind of breakthrough, the intensity eased off, some relief, there was some kind of shift. The desperate had been mostly about no meaning in my life. The search, six years previous, was a search for meaning. I had already ordered a book called basic Self-Knowledge by Harry Benjamin, about Maurice Nicoll's Commentaries and comparing Gurdjieff to J Krishnamurti (Benjamin said Nicoll told you how to do what Krishnamurti merely talked about, close, but not completely accurate, I came to find out), and ordered the book Meetings With Remarkable Men, but neither had come yet. Then at the end of March I met my teacher who introduced me to the teaching, through a public lecture at the Main Public library in Charlotte. For some months afterward, I began realizing I had encountered Gurdjieff at least half a dozen times previously, had even browsed Beelzebub's Tales, I remembered having read his Grandmother's advise to him just before she died. He was about ten, she told him, in life, never do as others do. But nothing had said, you need to explore this further. But, that gave me my meaning, direction, teacher and teaching. One stipulation to work was what's called being a good householder, basically, paying your own way in life, being able to, so by the end of March I found the job doing tree work, a climber's helper. I did that for almost 4 years, worked my way to being a crew foreman. Decided it was too hard a work to keep doing. All that's to let you know you kind of nailed it... |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 7, 2023 12:46:36 GMT -5
I was trying to put the question (point out), what ~*links*~ the two contexts for GM, or are they completely discontinuous? And explain how that works if they are completely discontinuous. And we don't define terms exactly the same, we don't play on the same field. But that question seems pretty basic. Individual means individuation, for me. That means, not the Whole. I've gone into my view thoroughly in the past. Basically, the individual is a tinier Matryoshka doll. It can gnosis the next bigger doll (if it knows itself, and the tinier doll, simultaneously). And once it knows that doll, it can gnosis the next-bigger doll. What's the link between the fish and the ocean? What's the link between the crest of the wave and the wave? There is no link. One is included in the other. Similarly, the personal is included in the impersonal. It's just a way that allows us to talk about What-Is. These distinctions have to be left behind at some point. It has to be seen directly. That's the difference between truth and truthin'. Your Matryoshka model is basically Inavalan's Gestalt model. So what you guys are interested is the phenomenology of reality or consciousness, i.e. how it appears (its forms, shapes and structures and functions). What we are pointing to is the ultimate nature of reality or consciousness, i.e. what it actually is. This is why your focus is on higher states of being and how to reach them via certain paths of action by moving thru time, which is a matter of experience; while our focus is on the natural state, the eternal Now, which is a matter of realization, not experience. And so you value practice, while we have no use for it. So you are right, we don't play on the same field. The field you are playing on, we are not interested in. And the field we are playing on, you have no awareness of at all (and therefore no interest in). Because the field you are playing on is the field of objects, appearances. The field we are playing on is the field prior to objects, prior to appearances. In Wei Wu Wei's terms, what you are interested in is the 'I' as object. What we are interested in is the 'I' as subject. Which brings us back to your initial question. The object is the manifested part of the subject, of course. And so the object does not exist in its own right. Only the subject exists in its own right. Therefore, in that sense, the object is not real, the object only appears to exist. Only the subject is real, and only the subject does not appear to exist. And so ultimately, it is this apparently existing object that in reality IS not (your playing field), and it is this apparently non-existent subject that in reality IS (our playing field). This is what is meant by seeing the real as real and the false as false. Your current perspective is seeing the false as real and the real as false. That error in perception has to be corrected. And it will be corrected in the event of SR. All it takes is a little tweaking of perspective, putting the horse before the cart again, so to speak. That's all. It's not that complicated. Liberation is an instantaneous, radical shift of perspective. People make too much of this. They apply thinking to what is prior to thinking. And so they imagine all kinds of things that have no place here, adding legs to a snake. And then liberation becomes this kind of long, laborious journey thru realms and realms of experiences (aka imagination) where you never arrive at something actual, only more imagination. Yes, there is no end to experiences, different levels and depths that can be explored (which can be fun, no doubt), but there is only one true nature. And you've either seen into your true nature or you haven't. And if you haven't, then you can't fully enjoy the exploring. But if you have, then the exploring suddenly becomes truly enjoyable. So, first things first. First you need to get your bearings. Which means you need to know who you really are and where you are going. Which means you have to accept the false as false and the real as real. Then you are free to explore without the risk of getting lost. Unfortunately, all the intricate paths and practices to liberation you read and hear about have been compiled by people who are lost, who don't know who they really are or where they are going. So how could they be helpful (except in giving you another example of what doesn't work)? I understood this when I was like 10 years old. So realization is just a realization? No ~*>mystical<*~ly something? |
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Post by Reefs on Sept 7, 2023 20:23:08 GMT -5
What's the link between the fish and the ocean? What's the link between the crest of the wave and the wave? There is no link. One is included in the other. Similarly, the personal is included in the impersonal. It's just a way that allows us to talk about What-Is. These distinctions have to be left behind at some point. It has to be seen directly. That's the difference between truth and truthin'. Your Matryoshka model is basically Inavalan's Gestalt model. So what you guys are interested is the phenomenology of reality or consciousness, i.e. how it appears (its forms, shapes and structures and functions). What we are pointing to is the ultimate nature of reality or consciousness, i.e. what it actually is. This is why your focus is on higher states of being and how to reach them via certain paths of action by moving thru time, which is a matter of experience; while our focus is on the natural state, the eternal Now, which is a matter of realization, not experience. And so you value practice, while we have no use for it. So you are right, we don't play on the same field. The field you are playing on, we are not interested in. And the field we are playing on, you have no awareness of at all (and therefore no interest in). Because the field you are playing on is the field of objects, appearances. The field we are playing on is the field prior to objects, prior to appearances. In Wei Wu Wei's terms, what you are interested in is the 'I' as object. What we are interested in is the 'I' as subject. Which brings us back to your initial question. The object is the manifested part of the subject, of course. And so the object does not exist in its own right. Only the subject exists in its own right. Therefore, in that sense, the object is not real, the object only appears to exist. Only the subject is real, and only the subject does not appear to exist. And so ultimately, it is this apparently existing object that in reality IS not (your playing field), and it is this apparently non-existent subject that in reality IS (our playing field). This is what is meant by seeing the real as real and the false as false. Your current perspective is seeing the false as real and the real as false. That error in perception has to be corrected. And it will be corrected in the event of SR. All it takes is a little tweaking of perspective, putting the horse before the cart again, so to speak. That's all. It's not that complicated. Liberation is an instantaneous, radical shift of perspective. People make too much of this. They apply thinking to what is prior to thinking. And so they imagine all kinds of things that have no place here, adding legs to a snake. And then liberation becomes this kind of long, laborious journey thru realms and realms of experiences (aka imagination) where you never arrive at something actual, only more imagination. Yes, there is no end to experiences, different levels and depths that can be explored (which can be fun, no doubt), but there is only one true nature. And you've either seen into your true nature or you haven't. And if you haven't, then you can't fully enjoy the exploring. But if you have, then the exploring suddenly becomes truly enjoyable. So, first things first. First you need to get your bearings. Which means you need to know who you really are and where you are going. Which means you have to accept the false as false and the real as real. Then you are free to explore without the risk of getting lost. Unfortunately, all the intricate paths and practices to liberation you read and hear about have been compiled by people who are lost, who don't know who they really are or where they are going. So how could they be helpful (except in giving you another example of what doesn't work)? I understood this when I was like 10 years old. So realization is just a realization? No ~*>mystical<*~ly something? Well, that understanding is just basic logic. You have to take the next step, of course. And that's where it gets interesting. Realization, not peak-experiences. |
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Post by someNOTHING! on Oct 14, 2023 10:11:04 GMT -5
Sure, it can be a weird thing to try to nail down what it is or express what it's made of, and I would never really go into a convo on its legitimacy, accuracy, or whatever either. I could also say the same about some peeps' reasoning and logic. It can be loaded with unconscious nonsense, highly questionable at times, and all the rest, as well. Everyone uses a sense of intuition everyday and different folks are at different levels of ease with it in activities that one is interested in. You, for example, probably use a sense of it when doing gardening. Zaz might use it in communicative contexts with his pups. SDP when figuring out an optimal wiring schema. And on and on. But, I would say that it is an aspect of mind-filtered Intelligence that could be more instinctual or perhaps more primitive, though not necessarily in a bad way. Some folks just got a sense for certain things. Maybe Inavalan will start to share what s/he considers decent links/visuals for a deeper look into it, or continue to express a preponderance of the evidence for respecting it as a tool. I don't even understand enough about it to get into trouble with, which is a baseline I (unfortunately ) use a lot. In the meantime, anyone can goog it. No, that seems pretty odd to say. There's rules and laws for everything. If there's a question you look it up in the code book. Basically, you either know what to do or you don't. ....You can't imagine how many ways things can get messed up, a helper twisting the wrong wires together. And you don't find those problems until you check a house out, months, or sometimes a year later. I would tell my helpers, don't get creative on me, if you don't know exactly what to do, ask. Another one of our electricians would say: Don't try to use the Force. Right, so in a way, it often appears that you base certain judgments or perceptions of what is said/implied here on how you use your mind's interpretations of Gurdjieff's schema, which is just a little boat that is being rowed. I'm not saying there's no value in that, but rowing is a matter of getting somewhere and/or (potentially) trying to gain something that one senses is lacking. |
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) use a lot. In the meantime, anyone can goog it.
), sitting in the steering wheel of his truck. All those just the top of my head, I can see every one in my mind. I can also see Uncle Jerry walking up the sidewalk at our neighbors, Mother and I were on the steps at the house. Jerry was crying, he said, Bet, Daddy's dead. And I remember, they took me to that same neighbor for Grandpa's funeral, which was at home. I remember looking out the window, seeing tons of cars, and wondering why I wasn't there. I was four when he died, 4 years 5 months old, he was 64, picking apples, he sat down on a stump and had a heart attack (I don't remember that part, was told). Odd thing, I always knew where he died, never discussed it, never recalled anybody ever saying, that's where your Grandpa died. I also knew there was a sandbox in the yard, and a set of swings. Then maybe about eight years ago Mama told me I had been with Grandpa that morning, there with him picking apples, same yard. Mama said my cousin Karen begged to be with Grandpa, so they took her and brought me back. Incidentally, Mother also told me that Grandpa had been a pastor of a church for about a year, otherwise he was just a farmer. My (former) wife had played at a funeral at Cold Springs Baptist Church in Concord, I happened to go with her, which I did from time to time, and telling her, Mama said, Oh, that's where your Grandpa was pastor for a while (during the depression). That kind of blew my mind.