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Post by inavalan on Aug 2, 2023 0:50:58 GMT -5
Simply put: the reality you experience is the physical materialization of your inner psyche. Your brain is the physical materialization of your mind. The brain processes reflect your mind; they don't create anything. It is as a painting reflects the painter's vision. You are your current beliefs, conscious and unconscious. You aren't anything that you don't experience (you aren't a Whole, nor WATI). Your conscious self, your awake physical state is an element of your personality gestalt, with its free-will. No problem with the first paragraph, six of one half a dozen of the other. Now, the second paragraph is the whole point of ouroboros' thread. We AREN'T just the conscious self. For most people the conscious self is just the whipping boy of the subconscious, the subconscious has all the power. The conscious self is like a bull with a ring in its nose, with a chain through the ring, and the subconscious just leads ~us~ around. The vasanas and the samskaras hold all the power, and ~we~ don't even know it. And it is ~they~ which ~we~ have to be purified ~of~. ouroboros has compared the whole process to seed and fruit. There is a "self"-perpetuating process. Our actions are the fruit, which in turn sow seeds (where are the seeds? in the fruit), which in turn make more fruit. The loop perpetuates in our life, we can debate, or even ignore, multiple lives. So the subconscious is what we are up against. Yes, now is the point of power, the point of leverage. ouroboros has listed some of our negative traits. These are what we are up against. Reefs has clearly said, these don't matter. Why is it called the subconscious? It's hidden from your conscious mind. So, now, the point of power, isn't really free. Some here say there is no freedom, period, no volition. But there is the possibility of freedom, that's what purification is about, removing the ring in the nose and the chain. The way I see it .. You aren't your potential, you have a potential. A 25-year old version isn't his 5-year old version, he had a 5-year old version (actually he has an endless number of 5-year old potential versions). Your physical-self isn't your dream-self, nor your inner-self, nor any probable or potential self. It is an element of your personality gestalt. Your physical-self isn't your family, nor your town people, country people, human race. It is an element of those (and other) gestalts. A cell in your physical-body isn't the physical-you, it is an element of the physical-you gestalt. A gestalt isn't a set of Russian nesting dolls. Your subconscious is an element of your personality gestalt. Subconscious and unconscious are different qualifiers. The reality your physical-self perceives isn't created by your physical-self, but it is created based on your physical-self's beliefs, emotions, expectations by your subconscious. Your physical-self uses its free-will to make all its choices, as your physical-self's cells do at their level, your family, your town-people, country-people, humanity do at their levels. When an element of a gestalt gets out of tune with that gestalt, it leaves it. There is no give-and-take, no consensus. There is an endless number of gestalts from which it chooses one that it is in tune with ("resonates", if you want). |
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Post by lolly on Aug 2, 2023 3:58:36 GMT -5
Okay, that was a great read. Loads and loads I rez with. I appreciate the level of contemplation that was obviously required to get to a point where you could express all that so clearly. By way of conversation....a couple of thoughts/questions that occurred to me 1) What you call 'purifying', I call 'transmuting'. It's a new age thing. I believe higher vibration energy transmutes lower vibration energy. So I think about the movement of negative thoughts, feelings etc in terms of energy movements. 2) My experience is that the light of awareness and becoming/being conscious is useful and powerful, but often isn't enough. My experience is that a positive powerful feeling is the transmuting agent of conditioning....it might be love, joy, compassion. Even sadness has been useful on my path, because within sadness, there can be extremely powerful love. Forgiveness has also been a useful tool for same reason. Faster EFT is also a super useful tool. Ho'oponopono also. This is just how it is for me obviously. 3) Like Laughter, I am unclear about the ultimate goal. What do you see as the benefit of no more rebirth? Why is that a good thing? Obviously dukkha sucks (by definition of what it is), but still....I'm not clear what is beyond that in Buddhism? Is there a sort of 'eternal formless bliss' or something like that? Well said. The vibrational context makes sense, and transmuting and transformational are quite descriptive of the experience. Indeed the subtler perceptions of the body are more like vibrations, waves,flows or another dynamic experience (as opposed to the normal perception of dense solidity). The issue is by hearing about this kind of experience, the novice starts to crave, 'I want that experience for myself', and despair, 'why won't that happen to me'. There are any number of me, my, mine, I anxieties such as this, and there's more to realise in recognition of that desire than there is in the attainment of the pleasure itself. The practice in such a case would be the awareness 'I can see this desire and its associated discontent'. One might expect I'll now give the solution to that, but nope. that's all it is. Of the course the volition is immediate as you desist in being aware of 'as it is' as you writhe in making it 'as I want to be' (note which of those statements is self referential). The potential of that volition manifests immediately as a sensation in the body, and creates a density, tension or dischord as the reactive mind teeters on its balance point and agitates your pool of serenity. That is at the nexus where mind creates matter for the senses (and matter creates the mind).
Quiet contentment with 'this', just as it is, regardless of solidity or lightness, pleasure or discomfort, is the aim of the game. We think the adept is so peaceful because he is suffused with pleasure, as he may be, but it's just as likely that he is only enjoying his discomfort. As far as he's concerned, it is as it is and it'll change inevitably all by itself. Spirituality usually wants the solution, 'what should i do about it', and most teachers offer something, but that's actually coming from aversion toward one experience and the craving for something else. My view is, change is already the nature of experience, and as reefs might say, best be aligned with nature's way.
Because the essence of being is the outpouring of love, the purification entails a lot of pleasure, which is great, and indeed, when a dense blockage moves through you like thick tar and dissolves in pure conscious awareness, healing light floods the space the blockage occupied, and it feels great. It's a holy experience, but it comes with temptation, the craving for more is exciting, but also puts you off track. Understanding on a deeper level, that happened, it's good, I'm transformed, but it's over and experience doesn't last. At least you learned the means by which it was enabled and can remain on that path rather than chasing the next special experience. When you come again to the discomfort of solid density, you do not become perturbed with aversion toward the ache nor craven for another transformative experience, but remain in the truth of 'this is how it is'. The irony is, indifference toward that which arises and passes away enables the experience, whereas desiring the same experience is a hinderance.
In practice it's a bit more nuanced as bringing light into the room then requires a bit or aftercare or acclimatisation to let it get established
After a time in a blissful flow there are new levels of intensity, and what you initially wanted more of starts to push the limits of what you can tolerate. It becomes very uncomfortable and it can be unrelenting so you just wish it would stop. I think that experience really teaches you that pleasure makes no difference. Pleasure and pain are really just the same. It's the same continuum of change, and by virtue of impermanence and the bedfellows desire and aversion, there's no real difference.
That doesn't mean pleasure, love, joy, or bliss isn't instrumental in transmutation. It is. It just means there's a risk of craving tempting you onto the 'wrong path'. I'd say remain steadfast on the truth rather than follow temptation.
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Post by ouroboros on Aug 2, 2023 6:44:43 GMT -5
Alignment means returning to your natural state of being, and that can only happen by letting go. And that is either NOW or never. Purification, OTOH, means running after some ideal (aka imaginary, unnatural) state of being and that can only happen thru effort, practice. And that is never NOW, but always tomorrow (which never comes). Once you realize that there is only NOW and that what you are actually after is your natural state (which just is, i.e. you can neither lose it nor earn it), you'll also realize that suffering as well as karma are actually optional. And I'd say the Shakyamuni story illustrates that rather clearly, that karma and suffering are optional. The moment you fully step into the NOW, you leave the realm of karma. The moment you step out of the NOW, you enter the realm of karma. It's that simple. That's what the Buddhist story about the tigers and the strawberries is all about. People make too much of this karma stuff. In Zen they call this a donkey-tying pole. Don't be a donkey!  Parts of that are just a rather simplistic way of saying what I said, which is fine enough. Other bits strike me as just expressions of ongoing ignorance/delusion about the fact that kamma is still actually happening there. Either that or misguided complacency about that fact. |
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Post by ouroboros on Aug 2, 2023 6:50:16 GMT -5
Next I'm going to talk a bit more about what I call 'bigger picture' purification. In the first post I set the stage by outlining the process by which the purification of kamma takes place leading to positive rebirth. So basically better quality experientiality. But the thing is all that is still samsaric in nature, which means it is essentially empty, transient and broadly speaking intrinsically subject to dukkha. Because that is the nature of the world at large from which ultimately we are never isolated, how could we be. It's a part n' parcel of that greater [mundane] expression if you like. So frankly, you can be living like a king, and on the surface be seemingly entirely content and have a strong peace of mind, but it will not last and it is imperfect. Therefore, in the final analysis the only true and lasting freedom is freedom from samsara itself, aka the end of rebirth. And doubtlessly, folks (and even different schools within the same traditions) will have different interpretations of what that entails. The Theravada position is that true liberation comes by way of the total cessation of the production of kamma leading to the end of rebirth itself. And they're not just talking about stressful thoughts based on misconceptions about reality, which means everything's perfect in the moment absent thoughts arising to the contrary, yada yada. They're saying that corporeal and material existence itself is intrinsically flawed and that real and lasting Peace comes only through the cessation of the arising of that particular form of individuated experientiality. Now whether you agree with it or not, make no mistake that is the Theravada interpretation of what the Buddha taught, and it just happens to be one I align with and is in keeping with various insight I have gleaned. So full disclosure, my entire ontology is based around that premise. That probably won't be news. To give an example of where I'm coming from with that, if intoxication with the world of sensuality, 'the world on fire', (which can be as simple as merely an ongoing penchant for the stimulation which comes through sensory perception) is in play. Then it's in play regardless of whether there's currently any intellection to that effect currently arising! And incidentally, it almost certainly will be in play, however subtly, which leads to engagement > perpetuation of kamma, and so on and so forth. Whether it's happening consciously or not makes not one jot of difference. Although consciously would be a more auspicious situation in the long-run as it would be indicative of a greater degree of clarity. True liberation necessitates a certain disenchantment with the world on fire which comes quite naturally through real clarity over time. We are not there yet. , constantly dying, one moment to the next? It's all in motion, ever in flux, constantly changing, and it's only ever a trick of the mind otherwise. You can look at a piece of metal, and it seems almost eternal in the inert sameness of it. But technology has extended our senses to reveal the astounding scale and scope of the sub-molecular and sub-atomic dynamics, constantly at play but escaping our eyes but for the shiny reflections. And, of course, you can always get a hint of this with your sense of touch. Similarly, looking outward. The scale and scope of what the mind reveals. The billions of years of star formation, life and death that it took to arrange the particular concentrations of the various elements that facilitated the long march of life on Earth. Without death, there is no life, and it's all just so achingly, wonderfully and blindingly beautiful. Let the cycle, cycle on. Heh heh .. as if you had a choice!  No-one would, and what's being pointed to isn't really the end of the universe, as mind perceives such a thing. Even science tells us that the greatest portion of that is currently dark to you. Which of course only means currently imperceptible. Forget about the 'goal' and focus on the 'method'. It's just about bringing stuff into the light of awareness and the rest will take care of itself. Perhaps begin by examining minds preoccupation with the perceived goal and what underpins that. You already know the answer to that actually. And we both already appreciate the magnitude and the majesty of what comprises even the current experience.  |
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Post by ouroboros on Aug 2, 2023 7:00:08 GMT -5
Okay, that was a great read. Loads and loads I rez with. I appreciate the level of contemplation that was obviously required to get to a point where you could express all that so clearly. By way of conversation....a couple of thoughts/questions that occurred to me 1) What you call 'purifying', I call 'transmuting'. It's a new age thing. I believe higher vibration energy transmutes lower vibration energy. So I think about the movement of negative thoughts, feelings etc in terms of energy movements. 2) My experience is that the light of awareness and becoming/being conscious is useful and powerful, but often isn't enough. My experience is that a positive powerful feeling is the transmuting agent of conditioning....it might be love, joy, compassion. Even sadness has been useful on my path, because within sadness, there can be extremely powerful love. Forgiveness has also been a useful tool for same reason. Faster EFT is also a super useful tool. Ho'oponopono also. This is just how it is for me obviously. 3) Like Laughter, I am unclear about the ultimate goal. What do you see as the benefit of no more rebirth? Why is that a good thing? Obviously dukkha sucks (by definition of what it is), but still....I'm not clear what is beyond that in Buddhism? Is there a sort of 'eternal formless bliss' or something like that? 1) Transmuting is a good word actually. 2) The Buddha said that if he were to promote one thing in particular toward enlightenment it would be mindfulness above all else. Ultimately I think it probably is enough, but that doesn’t mean to say there isn't necessarily more to it all than passive witnessing. In terms of the way that the pathless path would play out in the face of that. They talk quite a lot about the generation of positive, or uplifting energy too for example. As it being requisite. The negative tends to give way to the positive quite naturally through clarity but that's all pretty nuanced in the great scheme of things. 3) You can see what I said to laffy about this and although there's more I could say about it I'm disinclined to get too far into it right now for a number of reasons, chief of which is I'm all talked out for the moment. But perhaps more importantly, mind will inevitably make a bit of a dogs dinner of it, both in terms of my trying to express it and your trying to interpret that. In Buddhism it's actually classified as one of the imponderables, and it's suggested that engaging in this line of enquiry invariably leads to the disquiet of mind. They say it's simply not possible to know 'the sphere of a Buddha' where that state of being has not been directly apprehended. Obviously that doesn't stop us trying though and I strongly suspect there is discourse about this which is not readily available in the public domain for various reasons. What I will say is that I see it as possible to glean some insight into it through certain techniques and of course the newagers attempt to address this sort of thing in their ontology, although it's a particularly unrefined vision. The alternative is that the refined version will be extremely pointy. And I mean pointier than the pointer sisters wearing particularly pointy pairs of winkle pickers! .... Try saying that five times quickly. Anyway, I won't pretend to be entirely clear on it either, but contend it is largely irrelevant to the situation I laid out at the start of the thread, in terms of value. And so ideally that's where the focus should be. The rest would take care of itself over time, however that unfolds. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 2, 2023 7:09:23 GMT -5
No problem with the first paragraph, six of one half a dozen of the other. Now, the second paragraph is the whole point of ouroboros' thread. We AREN'T just the conscious self. For most people the conscious self is just the whipping boy of the subconscious, the subconscious has all the power. The conscious self is like a bull with a ring in its nose, with a chain through the ring, and the subconscious just leads ~us~ around. The vasanas and the samskaras hold all the power, and ~we~ don't even know it. And it is ~they~ which ~we~ have to be purified ~of~. ouroboros has compared the whole process to seed and fruit. There is a "self"-perpetuating process. Our actions are the fruit, which in turn sow seeds (where are the seeds? in the fruit), which in turn make more fruit. The loop perpetuates in our life, we can debate, or even ignore, multiple lives. So the subconscious is what we are up against. Yes, now is the point of power, the point of leverage. ouroboros has listed some of our negative traits. These are what we are up against. Reefs has clearly said, these don't matter. Why is it called the subconscious? It's hidden from your conscious mind. So, now, the point of power, isn't really free. Some here say there is no freedom, period, no volition. But there is the possibility of freedom, that's what purification is about, removing the ring in the nose and the chain. The way I see it .. You aren't your potential, you have a potential. A 25-year old version isn't his 5-year old version, he had a 5-year old version (actually he has an endless number of 5-year old potential versions). Your physical-self isn't your dream-self, nor your inner-self, nor any probable or potential self. It is an element of your personality gestalt. Your physical-self isn't your family, nor your town people, country people, human race. It is an element of those (and other) gestalts. A cell in your physical-body isn't the physical-you, it is an element of the physical-you gestalt. A gestalt isn't a set of Russian nesting dolls. Your subconscious is an element of your personality gestalt. Subconscious and unconscious are different qualifiers. The reality your physical-self perceives isn't created by your physical-self, but it is created based on your physical-self's beliefs, emotions, expectations by your subconscious. Your physical-self uses its free-will to make all its choices, as your physical-self's cells do at their level, your family, your town-people, country-people, humanity do at their levels. When an element of a gestalt gets out of tune with that gestalt, it leaves it. There is no give-and-take, no consensus. There is an endless number of gestalts from which it chooses one that it is in tune with ("resonates", if you want). I can only write from my perspective. I can fit my perspective very nicely into the paradigm of ouroboros, which is very clear the psychology of Buddhism. Basically the way I see it, we kind of have double vision. You can pull on your eyelid and create double vision. So we have an ideal, and we have what we presently are. What we are includes a set of delusions, we don't see accurately, perfectly. These are the defilements, these are what we need to be purified OF. And they constitute our self, are in a real sense the warp and woof of self. So we have two views here. One views says yes, I understand there are these issues, but they don't matter, because in actuality, underneath, you are *not-these-issues*. The other view says, to have a good and free and life, you have to eliminate, to purify the obstructions out-from-their-point-of-influencing. It's not easy, they are an aspect of your very day-to-day living. I come back to Jesus, he said if your eye offends you, pluck it out. If your arm offends you, cut if off. Now, he was speaking metaphorically, but he was speaking about purification. It's not easy, the way is just to see and acknowledge, to admit what-we-are. Christians don't understand what Jesus taught. Do you know what confess your sins means? It merely means to see the truth of what-you-are, it mean to see-what-is, that's all confession means. This is step one in AA, to recognize what the problem is, and admit it. That is, to no longer be in denial. Values enter here. You have the two images, you have to choose one. We have to make a choice every hour of every day, the choice to see the truth, what actually is. Eventually, you an eliminate the obstructions, and have a "single eye", be whole. That's all salvation means, to be made whole. It's experiential, existential, it's not a mere belief. We're not to merely accept what-we-are. We see it, admit what we are, the seeing brings the changing. ouroboros has laid it out very well. And the seeing is painful, sometimes gut-wrenching. The problem is we can't see clearly BECAUSE OF the defilements. So our seeing is always distorted. Self-delusion says you're OK, no problem here. So we have to be purified of the self-delusion, we have to be purified of the thing that does not let us see clearly. See how that's a problem? If we think all is OK, we just move on, but most people are in pain, suffering. The function of (physical) pain is to show there is a problem. Dukkha shows there is a problem. self is the problem. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2023 7:23:14 GMT -5
Alignment means returning to your natural state of being, and that can only happen by letting go. And that is either NOW or never. Purification, OTOH, means running after some ideal (aka imaginary, unnatural) state of being and that can only happen thru effort, practice. And that is never NOW, but always tomorrow (which never comes). Once you realize that there is only NOW and that what you are actually after is your natural state (which just is, i.e. you can neither lose it nor earn it), you'll also realize that suffering as well as karma are actually optional. And I'd say the Shakyamuni story illustrates that rather clearly, that karma and suffering are optional. The moment you fully step into the NOW, you leave the realm of karma. The moment you step out of the NOW, you enter the realm of karma. It's that simple. That's what the Buddhist story about the tigers and the strawberries is all about. People make too much of this karma stuff. In Zen they call this a donkey-tying pole. Don't be a donkey! A few of us here don't consider it quite so easy. I'd guess this represents at minimum five hours of time on the part of ouroboros, and years of study and effort, practice. Did you read in full? I read because of interest. I can see the blood, sweat and tears, quite literally. I could say a lot more, but not here, not now anyway. I'll have some more material, defense, elsewhere, parallel, soon, fly-removal. One of the primary "enemies"-obstacles is self-delusion. Recognizing the donkey is not so easy. The law of karma is just like the law of gravity, unavoidable. Consequences are always tied to actions. If you want to throw out cause and effect, you have moved away from Buddhism. Karma is only for those who believe in birth and death. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 2, 2023 7:54:46 GMT -5
A few of us here don't consider it quite so easy. I'd guess this represents at minimum five hours of time on the part of ouroboros, and years of study and effort, practice. Did you read in full? I read because of interest. I can see the blood, sweat and tears, quite literally. I could say a lot more, but not here, not now anyway. I'll have some more material, defense, elsewhere, parallel, soon, fly-removal. One of the primary "enemies"-obstacles is self-delusion. Recognizing the donkey is not so easy. The law of karma is just like the law of gravity, unavoidable. Consequences are always tied to actions. If you want to throw out cause and effect, you have moved away from Buddhism. Karma is only for those who believe in birth and death. Karma just means there are always consequences tied to actions. In Buddhism actions are considered body, speech and mind. You don't think your actions have consequences? Try robbing a bank. So, vasanas and samskaras don't exist in your *paradigm*? We don't have to talk about another life, just this life. Just picture a rope, consequences tied to body actions, speech, mind. Always, unavoidable. Another thing, example. Christians believe they are free from the law. Jesus never said that. What he actually said is heaven and earth will pass away before one little aspect of the law passes away. Karma is never not in effect. It's just that we come-to-be that which understands keeping the law is necessary. The law of karma becomes our friend. Professional bank robber probably know the law better than anyone. They know thresholds. Don't use a weapon. Don't kill anyone. These thresholds carry longer prison terms. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2023 8:11:59 GMT -5
Karma is only for those who believe in birth and death. Karma just means there are always consequences tied to actions. In Buddhism actions are considered body, speech and mind. You don't think your actions have consequences? Try robbing a bank. So, vasanas and samskaras don't exist in your *paradigm*? We don't have to talk about another life, just this life. Just picture a rope, consequences tied to body actions, speech, mind. Always, unavoidable. Another thing, example. Christians believe they are free from the law. Jesus never said that. What he actually said is heaven and earth will pass away before one little aspect of the law passes away. Karma is never not in effect. It's just that we come-to-be that which understands keeping the law is necessary. The law of karma becomes our friend. Professional bank robber probably know the law better than anyone. They know thresholds. Don't use a weapon. Don't kill anyone. These thresholds carry longer prison terms. Karma just means action. The Bhagavad Gita says unfathomable is the field of action. In other words there is no such thing as first cause and the effect or outcome of any particular action is not even clear, predictable or even within our control. That's why it's unfathomable and that's precisely why we shouldn't dwell on it. To become established in being burns all samskaras and vasanas and leaves only prarabdha karma for the maintenance of the body until the body is given up. Not only is karma for those who believe in birth and death but birth and death is only for those who believe in karma. Karma is a teaching for the masses. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 2, 2023 8:24:21 GMT -5
Karma just means there are always consequences tied to actions. In Buddhism actions are considered body, speech and mind. You don't think your actions have consequences? Try robbing a bank. So, vasanas and samskaras don't exist in your *paradigm*? We don't have to talk about another life, just this life. Just picture a rope, consequences tied to body actions, speech, mind. Always, unavoidable. Another thing, example. Christians believe they are free from the law. Jesus never said that. What he actually said is heaven and earth will pass away before one little aspect of the law passes away. Karma is never not in effect. It's just that we come-to-be that which understands keeping the law is necessary. The law of karma becomes our friend. Professional bank robber probably know the law better than anyone. They know thresholds. Don't use a weapon. Don't kill anyone. These thresholds carry longer prison terms. Karma just means action. The Bhagavad Gita says unfathomable is the field of action. In other words there is no such thing as first cause and the effect or outcome of any particular action is not even clear, predictable or even within our control. That's why it's unfathomable and that's precisely why we shouldn't dwell on it. To become established in being burns all samskaras and vasanas and leaves only prarabdha karma for the maintenance of the body until the body is given up. Not only is karma for those who believe in birth and death but birth and death is only for those who believe in karma. Karma is a teaching for the masses. Yep, unfathomable. You have given me direction for the next Yogacara quotes. I'll get to that. I was going to try not to cross threads with the Yogacara thread, seems that's not possible. Just briefly. "...three successive processes bringing about cause and effect simultaneously. This is said to happen instantaneously, and according to Yogacara, in less than an instant the manifest activities produced from the seeds of the reverberations of past activities are again stored into the alaya-vijnana (eight consciousness, the storehouse consciousness that ~records~ EVERYTHING, note sdp) as their seeds and dispositions. ...this phenomenon has continued without interruption since the immeasurably distant past..." pg 47 Living Yogacara by Tagawa Shun'ei, abbot of Hosso Zen Temple of Kofukuji, Japan. tbc, there |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2023 8:32:09 GMT -5
Karma just means action. The Bhagavad Gita says unfathomable is the field of action. In other words there is no such thing as first cause and the effect or outcome of any particular action is not even clear, predictable or even within our control. That's why it's unfathomable and that's precisely why we shouldn't dwell on it. To become established in being burns all samskaras and vasanas and leaves only prarabdha karma for the maintenance of the body until the body is given up. Not only is karma for those who believe in birth and death but birth and death is only for those who believe in karma. Karma is a teaching for the masses. Yep, unfathomable. You have given me direction for the next Yogacara quotes. Karma doesn't work because there is no individual free will available to change it. If you are destined to rob a bank then that's what will happen. If you have some self reflection and a rethink on the matter and decide that it's wrong to rob a bank then that too has already been predetermined. There is only one thing that you can do that is free will and that is to transcend the individual who appears to have free will. That alone will change what appears to be Karma. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 2, 2023 8:53:40 GMT -5
Yep, unfathomable. You have given me direction for the next Yogacara quotes. Karma doesn't work because there is no individual free will available to change it. If you are destined to rob a bank then that's what will happen. If you have some self reflection and a rethink on the matter and decide that it's wrong to rob a bank then that too has already been predetermined. There is only one thing that you can do that is free will and that is to transcend the individual who appears to have free will. That alone will change what appears to be Karma. We just live in two entirely different paradigms. One is illusory, one is actuality. That's what's at "debate" here. I added a quote from Living Yogacara, not that that will change anything or not that it is some kind of authority. I, of course, consider sdp is the one not-deluded. Now, can both be correct? Yes, that's why it is immeasurably complicated. satch is a something, you are writing and replying. yes, satch is Sourced in ~something else~, no independent existence. Does whatever satch is continues from one day to the next day? Yes, you experience this, sdp experiences this. This satch-something-that continues is not nothing. You have answered all this satisfactorily for yourself. I'm happy for you, truly. Just stick this in the back of your mind some day, and recall, yep, that ole sob sdp was correct. "_u__. And then you will have to start from where you are, then. It's called the Bardo. Karma perpetuates, until it doesn't, for EVERYONE. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2023 9:15:48 GMT -5
Karma doesn't work because there is no individual free will available to change it. If you are destined to rob a bank then that's what will happen. If you have some self reflection and a rethink on the matter and decide that it's wrong to rob a bank then that too has already been predetermined. There is only one thing that you can do that is free will and that is to transcend the individual who appears to have free will. That alone will change what appears to be Karma. We just live in two entirely different paradigms. One is illusory, one is actuality. That's what's at "debate" here. I added a quote from Living Yogacara, not that that will change anything or not that it is some kind of authority. I, of course, consider sdp is the one not-deluded. Now, can both be correct? Yes, that's why it is immeasurably complicated. satch is a something, you are writing and replying. yes, satch is Sourced in ~something else~, no independent existence. Does whatever satch is continues from one day to the next day? Yes, you experience this, sdp experiences this. This satch-something-that continues is not nothing. You have answered all this satisfactorily for yourself. I'm happy for you, truly. Just stick this in the back of your mind some day, and recall, yep, that ole sob sdp was correct. "_u__. And then you will have to start from where you are, then. It's called the Bardo. Karma perpetuates, until it doesn't, for EVERYONE. Don't you understand? There is no me who is starting anything from where I am. Haven't you realized yet that what happens just happens and you are the mere witness of it. How can I react to the kind of teachings that you quote which are just low level teachings for the masses to keep them happy? Try and look for a doer of your apparent actions. Can you seriously tell me that you can find an entity that is doing stuff? But don't tell that to the masses because it will disturb and upset them because they won't be ready for it so give them a nice happy little go lucky teaching called karma instead until they find out the truth. |
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Post by Reefs on Aug 2, 2023 9:37:28 GMT -5
I couldn't help but notice that talking to our karma-practice-chameleons is a bit like talking to our solipsists - the logic is fine and usually flawless, but the basic premise to which the logic is applied to is, unfortunately, false. That's all I wanted to point out. Because if you start with a flawed premise, it can only get wronger and not righter the more logic you apply, no matter how flawless your logic. And so what has been proposed here is all hopelessly flawed and donkey-backwards, even though it can be backed up by personal experience, scriptures and logic. This is mainly because the issue is approached exclusively from the personal perspective, not the impersonal perspective. People here, with their strong focus on how to get 'there', don't seem to realize that there's no 'there' there, that there is no actual difference between missing TPTPAU by a mile or missing it by a hair. You either passed thru the gateless gate or you didn't. The personal perspective remains the personal perspective and is not the impersonal perspective, no matter how pure or polished. And only from the impersonal perspective can this karma and practice topic be put to rest. From the personal perspective it will forever remain speculation, a mind game.
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Post by andrew on Aug 2, 2023 9:45:47 GMT -5
Okay, that was a great read. Loads and loads I rez with. I appreciate the level of contemplation that was obviously required to get to a point where you could express all that so clearly. By way of conversation....a couple of thoughts/questions that occurred to me 1) What you call 'purifying', I call 'transmuting'. It's a new age thing. I believe higher vibration energy transmutes lower vibration energy. So I think about the movement of negative thoughts, feelings etc in terms of energy movements. 2) My experience is that the light of awareness and becoming/being conscious is useful and powerful, but often isn't enough. My experience is that a positive powerful feeling is the transmuting agent of conditioning....it might be love, joy, compassion. Even sadness has been useful on my path, because within sadness, there can be extremely powerful love. Forgiveness has also been a useful tool for same reason. Faster EFT is also a super useful tool. Ho'oponopono also. This is just how it is for me obviously. 3) Like Laughter, I am unclear about the ultimate goal. What do you see as the benefit of no more rebirth? Why is that a good thing? Obviously dukkha sucks (by definition of what it is), but still....I'm not clear what is beyond that in Buddhism? Is there a sort of 'eternal formless bliss' or something like that? Well said. The vibrational context makes sense, and transmuting and transformational are quite descriptive of the experience. Indeed the subtler perceptions of the body are more like vibrations, waves,flows or another dynamic experience (as opposed to the normal perception of dense solidity). The issue is by hearing about this kind of experience, the novice starts to crave, 'I want that experience for myself', and despair, 'why won't that happen to me'. There are any number of me, my, mine, I anxieties such as this, and there's more to realise in recognition of that desire than there is in the attainment of the pleasure itself. The practice in such a case would be the awareness 'I can see this desire and its associated discontent'. One might expect I'll now give the solution to that, but nope. that's all it is. Of the course the volition is immediate as you desist in being aware of 'as it is' as you writhe in making it 'as I want to be' (note which of those statements is self referential). The potential of that volition manifests immediately as a sensation in the body, and creates a density, tension or dischord as the reactive mind teeters on its balance point and agitates your pool of serenity. That is at the nexus where mind creates matter for the senses (and matter creates the mind).
Quiet contentment with 'this', just as it is, regardless of solidity or lightness, pleasure or discomfort, is the aim of the game. We think the adept is so peaceful because he is suffused with pleasure, as he may be, but it's just as likely that he is only enjoying his discomfort. As far as he's concerned, it is as it is and it'll change inevitably all by itself. Spirituality usually wants the solution, 'what should i do about it', and most teachers offer something, but that's actually coming from aversion toward one experience and the craving for something else. My view is, change is already the nature of experience, and as reefs might say, best be aligned with nature's way. Because the essence of being is the outpouring of love, the purification entails a lot of pleasure, which is great, and indeed, when a dense blockage moves through you like thick tar and dissolves in pure conscious awareness, healing light floods the space the blockage occupied, and it feels great. It's a holy experience, but it comes with temptation, the craving for more is exciting, but also puts you off track. Understanding on a deeper level, that happened, it's good, I'm transformed, but it's over and experience doesn't last. At least you learned the means by which it was enabled and can remain on that path rather than chasing the next special experience. When you come again to the discomfort of solid density, you do not become perturbed with aversion toward the ache nor craven for another transformative experience, but remain in the truth of 'this is how it is'. The irony is, indifference toward that which arises and passes away enables the experience, whereas desiring the same experience is a hinderance.
In practice it's a bit more nuanced as bringing light into the room then requires a bit or aftercare or acclimatisation to let it get established
After a time in a blissful flow there are new levels of intensity, and what you initially wanted more of starts to push the limits of what you can tolerate. It becomes very uncomfortable and it can be unrelenting so you just wish it would stop. I think that experience really teaches you that pleasure makes no difference. Pleasure and pain are really just the same. It's the same continuum of change, and by virtue of impermanence and the bedfellows desire and aversion, there's no real difference.
That doesn't mean pleasure, love, joy, or bliss isn't instrumental in transmutation. It is. It just means there's a risk of craving tempting you onto the 'wrong path'. I'd say remain steadfast on the truth rather than follow temptation.
Relate strongly to that. It's fair to say that I was inclined to hedonism in the first 20 years of my life, and I think it's probably still part of my conditioning. I can naturally experience high states of love, joy and bliss, and a big part of my path...and my challenge.... has been releasing the need to cling to those (and sulk!) when those pleasurable feelings pass. I've gotten very adept over the years at spotting little sulks within me. Also....'snobbery' is another relevant word for me. I see snobbery in me when I elevate one state or feeling over another, it's saying, 'I am too good for that feeling/state', it's saying, 'I shouldn't be experiencing that feeling/state'. In the noticing of that, there's usually a swift and natural dropping of the snobbery into an acceptance of what is now. You really expressed it all very well, anything more I say feels like I am polluting it a bit, I just wanted to share a bit about my own path/experience there. |
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