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Post by andrew on Aug 1, 2023 15:14:20 GMT -5
Alignment means returning to your natural state of being, and that can only happen by letting go. And that is either NOW or never. Purification, OTOH, means running after some ideal (aka imaginary, unnatural) state of being and that can only happen thru effort, practice. And that is never NOW, but always tomorrow (which never comes). Once you realize that there is only NOW and that what you are actually after is your natural state (which just is, i.e. you can neither lose it nor earn it), you'll also realize that suffering as well as karma are actually optional. And I'd say the Shakyamuni story illustrates that rather clearly, that karma and suffering are optional. The moment you fully step into the NOW, you leave the realm of karma. The moment you step out of the NOW, you enter the realm of karma. It's that simple. That's what the Buddhist story about the tigers and the strawberries is all about. People make too much of this karma stuff. In Zen they call this a donkey-tying pole. Don't be a donkey! On the flip side, I see thousands of 'alignment' seekers that don't spend much time in alignment, because there's purification work to be done. There's a shed load of people out there that struggle with anxiety and that physiologically cannot be in alignment, until they've addressed the anxiety in some way. I see a balance...a time to purify, and a time to return to the Now. A time to do the work, and a time to walk off the battlefield. And that's going to be different for each individual. But, it all depends on what we are fundamentally driven towards. There was a time when I would have looked at Tolle and wanted what he had. Now I'm okay with my own spiritual path.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 1, 2023 16:15:46 GMT -5
Alignment means returning to your natural state of being, and that can only happen by letting go. And that is either NOW or never. Purification, OTOH, means running after some ideal (aka imaginary, unnatural) state of being and that can only happen thru effort, practice. And that is never NOW, but always tomorrow (which never comes). Once you realize that there is only NOW and that what you are actually after is your natural state (which just is, i.e. you can neither lose it nor earn it), you'll also realize that suffering as well as karma are actually optional. And I'd say the Shakyamuni story illustrates that rather clearly, that karma and suffering are optional. The moment you fully step into the NOW, you leave the realm of karma. The moment you step out of the NOW, you enter the realm of karma. It's that simple. That's what the Buddhist story about the tigers and the strawberries is all about. People make too much of this karma stuff. In Zen they call this a donkey-tying pole. Don't be a donkey! On the flip side, I see thousands of 'alignment' seekers that don't spend much time in alignment, because there's purification work to be done. There's a shed load of people out there that struggle with anxiety and that physiologically cannot be in alignment, until they've addressed the anxiety in some way. I see a balance...a time to purify, and a time to return to the Now. A time to do the work, and a time to walk off the battlefield. And that's going to be different for each individual. But, it all depends on what we are fundamentally driven towards. There was a time when I would have looked at Tolle and wanted what he had. Now I'm okay with my own spiritual path. There is a kind of disconnect I can't quite articulate. Trying to: This mind-body manifests certain qualities and characteristics, thoughts, feelings, actions. Now, whatever these characteristics are, is completely irrelevant, because there is a realization that ~I am not those characteristics~, I am the Whole of All That Is, there is no person here. There is only Source Sourcing. In fact, there is no responsibility here, as there is nobody here to be responsible. And, karma cannot exist, as there are no persons so nobody can be subject to karma. And, you can't understand all this unless you become a member of the club. That probably sounds disparaging, and I'm sure I will be told this is a misconception. Just trying to grasp the ungraspable. I don't wish to pollute ouroboros' thread, but ya know, donkeys poop as and where they please.
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Post by sharon on Aug 1, 2023 17:09:02 GMT -5
Lastly I quickly want to talk about love versus Love. The simple fact is that absent the three roots there is no platform upon which love could arise. Only Love. This would inevitably change the nature of your relationship with your kin. Ultimately for the better because in genuine clarity, love can be seen to be a form of headbanging (I know it's a stretch). So that's unlikely to be the current perspective. It certainly wasn't when I stood on the precipice and realised that from my family's pov they would lose me if I went any further. From my pov too it became abundantly clear it was an unattractive proposition, for various reasons. That I wasn't ready. Yet it was also unmistakably apparent from that vantage point that those reasons were a measure of where I was/am in terms of purification. What's still in play beneath the hood I mean.
Incidentally, this particular scenario is addressed (perhaps allegorically) in the tale of the Shakyamuni's life, where, in dedicating himself to the pursuit of truth about the nature of reality at any cost he left his family to go out into the world, and to the tune of much discontent from their part it has to be said. By the end of his path there was no variation in the value placed between their being and any other, and in due course he returned to teach them the dhamma. Now I'm not suggesting we should all get up and abandon our loved ones. The householder lifestyle is considered as virtuous in the traditions and will lead to the production of good kamma and by extension favourable rebirth. Which as I've said is both auspicious and necessary for true liberation in due course. I'm just saying to know the situation for what it is. Be aware. There is no true liberation whilst kamma is still being perpetuated, and in those circumstances it still is. Engagement with that level of patterning is happening which means that type of kamma is actually being reinforced. True liberation comes only through kamma leading to the end of kamma - skilful engagement, which comes as the natural result of genuine clarity. I'm finished talking for now, so if you got this far, then thanks for listening. "Know the light, though stay in the dark."
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Post by inavalan on Aug 1, 2023 18:11:21 GMT -5
There is a kind of disconnect I can't quite articulate. Trying to: This mind-body manifests certain qualities and characteristics, thoughts, feelings, actions. Now, whatever these characteristics are, is completely irrelevant, because there is a realization that ~I am not those characteristics~, I am the Whole of All That Is, there is no person here. There is only Source Sourcing. In fact, there is no responsibility here, as there is nobody here to be responsible. And, karma cannot exist, as there are no persons so nobody can be subject to karma. And, you can't understand all this unless you become a member of the club. That probably sounds disparaging, and I'm sure I will be told this is a misconception. Just trying to grasp the ungraspable. I don't wish to pollute ouroboros' thread, but ya know, donkey's poop as and where they please. Simply put: the reality you experience is the physical materialization of your inner psyche. Your brain is the physical materialization of your mind. The brain processes reflect your mind; they don't create anything. It is as a painting reflects the painter's vision. You are your current beliefs, conscious and unconscious. You aren't anything that you don't experience (you aren't a Whole, nor WATI). Your conscious self, your awake physical state is an element of your personality gestalt, with its free-will.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 1, 2023 20:16:50 GMT -5
There is a kind of disconnect I can't quite articulate. Trying to: This mind-body manifests certain qualities and characteristics, thoughts, feelings, actions. Now, whatever these characteristics are, is completely irrelevant, because there is a realization that ~I am not those characteristics~, I am the Whole of All That Is, there is no person here. There is only Source Sourcing. In fact, there is no responsibility here, as there is nobody here to be responsible. And, karma cannot exist, as there are no persons so nobody can be subject to karma. And, you can't understand all this unless you become a member of the club. That probably sounds disparaging, and I'm sure I will be told this is a misconception. Just trying to grasp the ungraspable. I don't wish to pollute ouroboros' thread, but ya know, donkey's poop as and where they please. Simply put: the reality you experience is the physical materialization of your inner psyche. Your brain is the physical materialization of your mind. The brain processes reflect your mind; they don't create anything. It is as a painting reflects the painter's vision. You are your current beliefs, conscious and unconscious. You aren't anything that you don't experience (you aren't a Whole, nor WATI). Your conscious self, your awake physical state is an element of your personality gestalt, with its free-will. No problem with the first paragraph, six of one half a dozen of the other. Now, the second paragraph is the whole point of ouroboros' thread. We AREN'T just the conscious self. For most people the conscious self is just the whipping boy of the subconscious, the subconscious has all the power. The conscious self is like a bull with a ring in its nose, with a chain through the ring, and the subconscious just leads ~us~ around. The vasanas and the samskaras hold all the power, and ~we~ don't even know it. And it is ~they~ which ~we~ have to be purified ~of~. ouroboros has compared the whole process to seed and fruit. There is a "self"-perpetuating process. Our actions are the fruit, which in turn sow seeds (where are the seeds? in the fruit), which in turn make more fruit. The loop perpetuates in our life, we can debate, or even ignore, multiple lives. So the subconscious is what we are up against. Yes, now is the point of power, the point of leverage. ouroboros has listed some of our negative traits. These are what we are up against. Reefs has clearly said, these don't matter. Why is it called the subconscious? It's hidden from your conscious mind. So, now, the point of power, isn't really free. Some here say there is no freedom, period, no volition. But there is the possibility of freedom, that's what purification is about, removing the ring in the nose and the chain.
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Post by justlikeyou on Aug 1, 2023 21:04:17 GMT -5
Simply put: the reality you experience is the physical materialization of your inner psyche. Your brain is the physical materialization of your mind. The brain processes reflect your mind; they don't create anything. It is as a painting reflects the painter's vision. You are your current beliefs, conscious and unconscious. You aren't anything that you don't experience (you aren't a Whole, nor WATI). Your conscious self, your awake physical state is an element of your personality gestalt, with its free-will. No problem with the first paragraph, six of one half a dozen of the other. Now, the second paragraph is the whole point of ouroboros' thread. We AREN'T just the conscious self. For most people the conscious self is just the whipping boy of the subconscious, the subconscious has all the power. The conscious self is like a bull with a ring in its nose, with a chain through the ring, and the subconscious just leads ~us~ around. The vasanas and the samskaras hold all the power, and ~we~ don't even know it. And it is ~they~ which ~we~ have to be purified ~of~. ouroboros has compared the whole process to seed and fruit. There is a "self"-perpetuating process. Our actions are the fruit, which in turn sow seeds (where are the seeds? in the fruit), which in turn make more fruit. The loop perpetuates in our life, we can debate, or even ignore, multiple lives. So the subconscious is what we are up against. Yes, now is the point of power, the point of leverage. ouroboros has listed some of our negative traits. These are what we are up against. Reefs has clearly said, these don't matter. Why is it called the subconscious? It's hidden from your conscious mind. So, now, the point of power, isn't really free. Some here say there is no freedom, period, no volition. But there is the possibility of freedom, that's what purification is about, removing the ring in the nose and the chain. I have to say that this provoked a very detailed image in my mind. There is a tall and wide turrent made of granite stones. It towers over you. It has a man size door without latch or handle. And then there is you. A man circling round and round the outide of the turrent, year afrer year running over the same old ground. Yet, never bothering to try the door.
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Post by laughter on Aug 1, 2023 21:04:26 GMT -5
This is Zen, at least the Soto variant, with one exception: all you mentioned is left unsaid. The reason for this is the mind's tendency to set expectations. To me what's most compelling about Zen is what is unsaid. Though the phrase no "delusion, no expectation" was often repeated. The "purification" you speak of happens quite naturally as we peruse thought. One begins to see the mind's schemes and tendencies. We are not instructed to do this, but it's a by-product of refocusing on the breath.As to reincarnation and karma, they are never mentioned. The whole focus is on the process. The act of meditation. One technique used to indicate that there were ways to amplify the scope of the meditative state (samadhi) was kin hin, walking meditation. Also chanting, where the focus was not so much the words as the sound. There were no grades or levels with the exception of priesthood. Kind of like the old Karate schools were everyone was a white belt which darkened as one practiced. In reading your expose' I am very much reminded of RM's self inquiry process. And I often say that Zen seems to dovetail into SI. Thanks. I appreciate this. Yes (although I haven't taken time to read the walls), I can relate directly to that. Tolle makes two suggestions in Now. In the first, he predicts that the reader might start to chuckle at the antics of mind, and that was certainly my experience, even to the point of marveling at the nonsense. In the second, he comments that likely on upwards of 90% of human thought is negative, repetitive and ineffectual. Check. This can't be unseen, and in the resulting space, what remains is far more visible. Conditioning changes over time, in a natural process of emptiness, deepening. It's a different process from cycling through different phases and either improving or degrading. It's also different from the natural process of aging and decay, which is happening, in tandem, anyway. Beyond that, I'm suspect of any notion of "purification" because of the implicit notions of shame, improvement and moral stricture. And not because I've ever given a flying fuck about what anyone thinks I should do, but because of all the incredible waste in terms of twisted minds and the emotional wreckage of others I've witnessed and encountered in my life. People who mistreat themselves and everyone around them because of self-esteem issues. It's a disaster. It's a criticism of Christianity which I certainly understand, and would never try to argue anyone out of or apologize for.
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Post by laughter on Aug 1, 2023 21:28:18 GMT -5
Next I'm going to talk a bit more about what I call 'bigger picture' purification. In the first post I set the stage by outlining the process by which the purification of kamma takes place leading to positive rebirth. So basically better quality experientiality. But the thing is all that is still samsaric in nature, which means it is essentially empty, transient and broadly speaking intrinsically subject to dukkha. Because that is the nature of the world at large from which ultimately we are never isolated, how could we be. It's a part n' parcel of that greater [mundane] expression if you like. So frankly, you can be living like a king, and on the surface be seemingly entirely content and have a strong peace of mind, but it will not last and it is imperfect. Therefore, in the final analysis the only true and lasting freedom is freedom from samsara itself, aka the end of rebirth. And doubtlessly, folks (and even different schools within the same traditions) will have different interpretations of what that entails. The Theravada position is that true liberation comes by way of the total cessation of the production of kamma leading to the end of rebirth itself. And they're not just talking about stressful thoughts based on misconceptions about reality, which means everything's perfect in the moment absent thoughts arising to the contrary, yada yada. They're saying that corporeal and material existence itself is intrinsically flawed and that real and lasting Peace comes only through the cessation of the arising of that particular form of individuated experientiality. Now whether you agree with it or not, make no mistake that is the Theravada interpretation of what the Buddha taught, and it just happens to be one I align with and is in keeping with various insight I have gleaned. So full disclosure, my entire ontology is based around that premise. That probably won't be news. To give an example of where I'm coming from with that, if intoxication with the world of sensuality, 'the world on fire', (which can be as simple as merely an ongoing penchant for the stimulation which comes through sensory perception) is in play. Then it's in play regardless of whether there's currently any intellection to that effect currently arising! And incidentally, it almost certainly will be in play, however subtly, which leads to engagement > perpetuation of kamma, and so on and so forth. Whether it's happening consciously or not makes not one jot of difference. Although consciously would be a more auspicious situation in the long-run as it would be indicative of a greater degree of clarity. True liberation necessitates a certain disenchantment with the world on fire which comes quite naturally through real clarity over time. We are not there yet. Why would anyone want an end to the endless rebirth of the Universe, constantly dying, one moment to the next? It's all in motion, ever in flux, constantly changing, and it's only ever a trick of the mind otherwise. You can look at a piece of metal, and it seems almost eternal in the inert sameness of it. But technology has extended our senses to reveal the astounding scale and scope of the sub-molecular and sub-atomic dynamics, constantly at play but escaping our eyes but for the shiny reflections. And, of course, you can always get a hint of this with your sense of touch. Similarly, looking outward. The scale and scope of what the mind reveals. The billions of years of star formation, life and death that it took to arrange the particular concentrations of the various elements that facilitated the long march of life on Earth. Without death, there is no life, and it's all just so achingly, wonderfully and blindingly beautiful. Let the cycle, cycle on. Heh heh .. as if you had a choice!
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Post by lolly on Aug 1, 2023 21:45:56 GMT -5
Nice. Hard subject to cover, and have to be well organised to do so without losing the plot.
I think what reefs is missing is that the practice itself and the outcomes of practice aren't the same thing. IMO best to understand that 'letting go' is just the same as 'leaving it be as it is'. Indeed, if anything, the former of these imply agency rather than the latter.
I like the explanation that says when you exert volition you produce a potential which inevitably manifests in conscious experience, only to pass away. Since this isn't linear, but better imagined as circular, it's called the kammic cycle.
The cycle is something like, something happens, you react, reaction incites volition, a potential is produced, the potential manifests in experience, you react to it, volition, potential, manifest, react... in a loop.
Meditation breaks the cycle at the reaction stage. Hence it isn't a practice of doing, but a practice of being conscious of what you already do unintentionally, and ceasing to do that. By ceasing to react you cease volition etc. and 'breaks' the kammic cycle.
Even though the potentials of volition manifest immediately as subtle sensations in the body, the reactive tendency in itself is resistive, so the scope of the potential is left unrealised. Thus these potentials start to accumulate in the life form. The most obvious example is how unresolved trauma as a child can affect outcomes in adult life.
These accumulations of potential are manifest in themselves and can be felt throughout the body as tensions, solidity, density, heaviness, tightness or similar feelings. Other body areas become numb as you become increasingly unconscious of the manifestation, which is probably quite a difficult one being avoided.
This is why they say meditation is for purification. People accumulate gunk and reefs is correct in saying it has to be let go. However, I prefer to say don't let go, don't hold on, just know it as a fact and let it be as it is. It is better than imagining that there is 'someone' holding on that must now let go.
I know 'this is how it is'. Period. There is no further step. The thing can go or it can stay (but it will inevitably change). The desire for it to go is an aversion that only adds to the accumulation. One needs objective neutrality to witness the truth, as experienced by you, with the indifference one who is not affected by it.
You see how this breaks the cycle at the reaction link. Since the reactivity ceased, volition ceases, and therefore, new potentials are no longer generated. The old accumulation of potentials continue to manifest as conscious experience and pass away. It's likened to a fire which you keep fueling. When you cease to add new wood, the old wood will burn out in its own time. As such, the accumulated sankara will eventually expire - and this emptying out is referred to as 'purification'.
Here's the nuance: The desire for purification is aversion toward impurity, and this reactive tendency only adds more fuel to the fire
The reason this aspect is not 'now' is because the process unfolds in its own way in its own time, just as the fire doesn't die 'now', but dwindles from now on. The fire takes a while to go out, but it inevitably will. If everything came through right now all at once it'd overwhelm you so much you'd never come back. This is why 'let go' may sound right as a conventional wisdom, but it isn't really the thing. The meditator has limitations with regard to his equanimity and can let go to that degree, but in practice you will find there is a point at which you become overwhelmed. The practice is an exercise that strengthens equanimity, the enhancement of which enables you to take more that you could before. Thus the purification deepens and deep seated sankaras are unloosed, surface in the experience and pass away. The removal of these obstacles clears the channel so the pure love of the universe flows through for you to express itself in all aspects of your life.
Even then, there's only so much a koala can bear, and as it flows, you still hit limitations that you can't currently surpass. At that stage the tendency for desire is so strong you keep getting misled by temptations with the delusion that your motive is pure. Hence the practice remains consistent: neutral awareness with balance of mind as one who remains unaffected.
I guess I'll end there, because it starts with pure motive, and it also ends there.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 1, 2023 22:26:22 GMT -5
Next I'm going to talk a bit more about what I call 'bigger picture' purification. In the first post I set the stage by outlining the process by which the purification of kamma takes place leading to positive rebirth. So basically better quality experientiality. But the thing is all that is still samsaric in nature, which means it is essentially empty, transient and broadly speaking intrinsically subject to dukkha. Because that is the nature of the world at large from which ultimately we are never isolated, how could we be. It's a part n' parcel of that greater [mundane] expression if you like. So frankly, you can be living like a king, and on the surface be seemingly entirely content and have a strong peace of mind, but it will not last and it is imperfect. Therefore, in the final analysis the only true and lasting freedom is freedom from samsara itself, aka the end of rebirth. And doubtlessly, folks (and even different schools within the same traditions) will have different interpretations of what that entails. The Theravada position is that true liberation comes by way of the total cessation of the production of kamma leading to the end of rebirth itself. And they're not just talking about stressful thoughts based on misconceptions about reality, which means everything's perfect in the moment absent thoughts arising to the contrary, yada yada. They're saying that corporeal and material existence itself is intrinsically flawed and that real and lasting Peace comes only through the cessation of the arising of that particular form of individuated experientiality. Now whether you agree with it or not, make no mistake that is the Theravada interpretation of what the Buddha taught, and it just happens to be one I align with and is in keeping with various insight I have gleaned. So full disclosure, my entire ontology is based around that premise. That probably won't be news. To give an example of where I'm coming from with that, if intoxication with the world of sensuality, 'the world on fire', (which can be as simple as merely an ongoing penchant for the stimulation which comes through sensory perception) is in play. Then it's in play regardless of whether there's currently any intellection to that effect currently arising! And incidentally, it almost certainly will be in play, however subtly, which leads to engagement > perpetuation of kamma, and so on and so forth. Whether it's happening consciously or not makes not one jot of difference. Although consciously would be a more auspicious situation in the long-run as it would be indicative of a greater degree of clarity. True liberation necessitates a certain disenchantment with the world on fire which comes quite naturally through real clarity over time. We are not there yet. Why would anyone want an end to the endless rebirth of the Universe, constantly dying, one moment to the next? It's all in motion, ever in flux, constantly changing, and it's only ever a trick of the mind otherwise. You can look at a piece of metal, and it seems almost eternal in the inert sameness of it. But technology has extended our senses to reveal the astounding scale and scope of the sub-molecular and sub-atomic dynamics, constantly at play but escaping our eyes but for the shiny reflections. And, of course, you can always get a hint of this with your sense of touch. Similarly, looking outward. The scale and scope of what the mind reveals. The billions of years of star formation, life and death that it took to arrange the particular concentrations of the various elements that facilitated the long march of life on Earth. Without death, there is no life, and it's all just so achingly, wonderfully and blindingly beautiful. Let the cycle, cycle on. Heh heh .. as if you had a choice! You miss the whole point.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 1, 2023 22:33:47 GMT -5
Nice. Hard subject to cover, and have to be well organised to do so without losing the plot. I think what reefs is missing is that the practice itself and the outcomes of practice aren't the same thing. IMO best to understand that 'letting go' is just the same as 'leaving it be as it is'. Indeed, if anything, the former of these imply agency rather than the latter. I like the explanation that says when you exert volition you produce a potential which inevitably manifests in conscious experience, only to pass away. Since this isn't linear, but better imagined as circular, it's called the kammic cycle. The cycle is something like, something happens, you react, reaction incites volition, a potential is produced, the potential manifests in experience, you react to it, volition, potential, manifest, react... in a loop. Meditation breaks the cycle at the reaction stage. Hence it isn't a practice of doing, but a practice of being conscious of what you already do unintentionally, and ceasing to do that. By ceasing to react you cease volition etc. and 'breaks' the kammic cycle. Even though the potentials of volition manifest immediately as subtle sensations in the body, the reactive tendency in itself is resistive, so the scope of the potential is left unrealised. Thus these potentials start to accumulate in the life form. The most obvious example is how unresolved trauma as a child can affect outcomes in adult life. These accumulations of potential are manifest in themselves and can be felt throughout the body as tensions, solidity, density, heaviness, tightness or similar feelings. Other body areas become numb as you become increasingly unconscious of the manifestation, which is probably quite a difficult one being avoided. This is why they say meditation is for purification. People accumulate gunk and reefs is correct in saying it has to be let go. However, I prefer to say don't let go, don't hold on, just know it as a fact and let it be as it is. It is better than imagining that there is 'someone' holding on that must now let go. I know 'this is how it is'. Period. There is no further step. The thing can go or it can stay (but it will inevitably change). The desire for it to go is an aversion that only adds to the accumulation. One needs objective neutrality to witness the truth, as experienced by you, with the indifference one who is not affected by it. You see how this breaks the cycle at the reaction link. Since the reactivity ceased, volition ceases, and therefore, new potentials are no longer generated. The old accumulation of potentials continue to manifest as conscious experience and pass away. It's likened to a fire which you keep fueling. When you cease to add new wood, the old wood will burn out in its own time. As such, the accumulated sankara will eventually expire - and this emptying out is referred to as 'purification'. Here's the nuance: The desire for purification is aversion toward impurity, and this reactive tendency only adds more fuel to the fire The reason this aspect is not 'now' is because the process unfolds in its own way in its own time, just as the fire doesn't die 'now', but dwindles from now on. The fire takes a while to go out, but it inevitably will. If everything came through right now all at once it'd overwhelm you so much you'd never come back. This is why 'let go' may sound right as a conventional wisdom, but it isn't really the thing. The meditator has limitations with regard to his equanimity and can let go to that degree, but in practice you will find there is a point at which you become overwhelmed. The practice is an exercise that strengthens equanimity, the enhancement of which enables you to take more that you could before. Thus the purification deepens and deep seated sankaras are unloosed, surface in the experience and pass away. The removal of these obstacles clears the channel so the pure love of the universe flows through for you to express itself in all aspects of your life. Even then, there's only so much a koala can bear, and as it flows, you still hit limitations that you can't currently surpass. At that stage the tendency for desire is so strong you keep getting misled by temptations with the delusion that your motive is pure. Hence the practice remains consistent: neutral awareness with balance of mind as one who remains unaffected. I guess I'll end there, because it starts with pure motive, and it also ends there. Yes.
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Post by andrew on Aug 1, 2023 23:16:22 GMT -5
Okay, that was a great read. Loads and loads I rez with. I appreciate the level of contemplation that was obviously required to get to a point where you could express all that so clearly.
By way of conversation....a couple of thoughts/questions that occurred to me
1) What you call 'purifying', I call 'transmuting'. It's a new age thing. I believe higher vibration energy transmutes lower vibration energy. So I think about the movement of negative thoughts, feelings etc in terms of energy movements.
2) My experience is that the light of awareness and becoming/being conscious is useful and powerful, but often isn't enough. My experience is that a positive powerful feeling is the transmuting agent of conditioning....it might be love, joy, compassion. Even sadness has been useful on my path, because within sadness, there can be extremely powerful love. Forgiveness has also been a useful tool for same reason. Faster EFT is also a super useful tool. Ho'oponopono also. This is just how it is for me obviously.
3) Like Laughter, I am unclear about the ultimate goal. What do you see as the benefit of no more rebirth? Why is that a good thing? Obviously dukkha sucks (by definition of what it is), but still....I'm not clear what is beyond that in Buddhism? Is there a sort of 'eternal formless bliss' or something like that?
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Post by andrew on Aug 1, 2023 23:27:29 GMT -5
On the flip side, I see thousands of 'alignment' seekers that don't spend much time in alignment, because there's purification work to be done. There's a shed load of people out there that struggle with anxiety and that physiologically cannot be in alignment, until they've addressed the anxiety in some way. I see a balance...a time to purify, and a time to return to the Now. A time to do the work, and a time to walk off the battlefield. And that's going to be different for each individual. But, it all depends on what we are fundamentally driven towards. There was a time when I would have looked at Tolle and wanted what he had. Now I'm okay with my own spiritual path. There is a kind of disconnect I can't quite articulate. Trying to: This mind-body manifests certain qualities and characteristics, thoughts, feelings, actions. Now, whatever these characteristics are, is completely irrelevant, because there is a realization that ~I am not those characteristics~, I am the Whole of All That Is, there is no person here. There is only Source Sourcing. In fact, there is no responsibility here, as there is nobody here to be responsible. And, karma cannot exist, as there are no persons so nobody can be subject to karma. And, you can't understand all this unless you become a member of the club. That probably sounds disparaging, and I'm sure I will be told this is a misconception. Just trying to grasp the ungraspable. I don't wish to pollute ouroboros' thread, but ya know, donkeys poop as and where they please. What you are describing, I see as a 'way' of experiencing, and in the wake of that 'way' of experiencing, trails a particular state of being. And I'm not going to lie....I can see value in this 'way' and this state of being. And I can find that 'way' and this state within me. I get why it 'works' for some folks. But, apparently, it's not for me. I'm a jack of all trades, for me, there are other dimensions of spirituality too. I have no choice about that, that's the way I'm wired, it's my individuality. And clearly, it's not for you either. It just doesn't seem to be your individuality. But, I hope that you have had a direct experience of that 'way'...and that state...? I think you have....? If not, I wish it for you, if only on the basis that you will then get the value of it for those whose spiritual path it is to rest contentedly in that 'way/state'. Edit: There is also the possibility that a lightning bolt realization will hit me and and I then ONLY find value in that particular way/state of being. It would be wrong for me to discount that possibility. But I doubt it. Because I know what I truly desire, and that's not quite it.
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Post by inavalan on Aug 2, 2023 0:01:39 GMT -5
Why would anyone want an end to the endless rebirth of the Universe, constantly dying, one moment to the next? It's all in motion, ever in flux, constantly changing, and it's only ever a trick of the mind otherwise. You can look at a piece of metal, and it seems almost eternal in the inert sameness of it. But technology has extended our senses to reveal the astounding scale and scope of the sub-molecular and sub-atomic dynamics, constantly at play but escaping our eyes but for the shiny reflections. And, of course, you can always get a hint of this with your sense of touch. Similarly, looking outward. The scale and scope of what the mind reveals. The billions of years of star formation, life and death that it took to arrange the particular concentrations of the various elements that facilitated the long march of life on Earth. Without death, there is no life, and it's all just so achingly, wonderfully and blindingly beautiful. Let the cycle, cycle on. Heh heh .. as if you had a choice! You miss the whole point.
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Post by inavalan on Aug 2, 2023 0:11:02 GMT -5
Why would anyone want an end to the endless rebirth of the Universe, constantly dying, one moment to the next? It's all in motion, ever in flux, constantly changing, and it's only ever a trick of the mind otherwise. You can look at a piece of metal, and it seems almost eternal in the inert sameness of it. But technology has extended our senses to reveal the astounding scale and scope of the sub-molecular and sub-atomic dynamics, constantly at play but escaping our eyes but for the shiny reflections. And, of course, you can always get a hint of this with your sense of touch. Similarly, looking outward. The scale and scope of what the mind reveals. The billions of years of star formation, life and death that it took to arrange the particular concentrations of the various elements that facilitated the long march of life on Earth. Without death, there is no life, and it's all just so achingly, wonderfully and blindingly beautiful. Let the cycle, cycle on. Heh heh .. as if you had a choice! I'd ask my inner-source of knowledge and guidance, or at least I'd attempt to use my intuition, being careful that my beliefs, emotions, expectations will inherently distort what I get.
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