|
|
Post by figrebirth on Jun 20, 2023 11:36:50 GMT -5
No, definitely not  I believe they are expressions/reflections of my internal reality. I explore why I participate in the creation of them. What is 'within me' that contributes to this creation. Sometimes I am willing to take TOTAL responsibility for them, though it's perhaps a bit narcissistic (or solipsist) to take that view all the time. I generally lean more into the idea of 'collective creation', which does include me of course (And there are also times when I surrender any notion of 'personal or collective creation', if I sense/feel that is the higher path to take) Individuals are not making choices here. Everything moves as one. Your choices are part of the overall movement of universe Yup. In terms of what is known for certain, that remains but a relative theory/idea. The very idea of "creation" itself involves assumption/inference. All that is known for certain is 'imminent/direct/here/NOW.' Creation invokes time passage....causation...it's a relative idea only and does not belong in Truth/Nonduality talk.
And very much agree.....you've stated all that very well..."choices are part of the overall movement..."....seeing that though does not mean that "people who choose" stops appearing or being part and parcel of experience.
That's the point many get hung upon. They expect that a seeing through of 'individual choice,' necessarily then mean that facet is no longer apparent within the story at all.
Realization/seeing through trumps all those relative, experiential facets, but also in many cases, includes them, (as appearance only).
|
|
|
|
Post by figrebirth on Jun 20, 2023 11:43:26 GMT -5
You have been immersed in your belief. Ask a simple question, If you know nobody is responsible for what's happening, then why are you angry and for what? Would you go and stab the character who acted in the movie after completing the movie? Don't know that's scripted? What's being pointed to is not logical. If a why question is asked, it reveals that one has not realized the obvious. If one knows that no one is responsible for anything that happens, then what would cause irritation or sadness? Something much deeper is going on that logic cannot touch. It is true that once fundamental separation is seen through, the SVP and all separation that was once very much a facet of experience, is no longer a facet of experience.
And it is true that that absence does very much impact experience and within that impact is a shift in terms of personal/human feeling/emotions. Those emotions/feelings at the deep depth of intolerance/despair, that had the erroneous overlay of the SVP's deep judgments behind them, no longer arise due to the absence of those SVP judgments. However, all other responses/feelings/emotions are still in play.....the words/terms we use to describe those may be difficult to agree upon and get straight, but I think it's fair to say that what IS absent post SR, is any feeling/emotion that has separation per se, at it's crux.
The sense of 'separation' could very much be said to be a quite specific "feeling/emotion"....one that is at the bottom rungs of the feeling scale, where hopelessness, intolerability, terror, despair, anger/rage/fundamental blame, reside.
Plain and simply, if the sense of separation is no longer in play, feelings of separation no longer have anything to stand upon.
|
|
|
|
Post by figrebirth on Jun 20, 2023 11:51:54 GMT -5
The truth here is that you are limiting existence, and existence cannot be limited (except paradoxically by your own limiting beliefs). Why would you prefer to hold a limiting belief? , everything moves around according our inner nature. We are creating the world around us and people in it with our belief and the clarity. New clarity will remove certain people from lives . The realization of inherent, fundamental perfection is impersonal seeing. The sense that you are creating the world around you with your personal beliefs and clarity and that new clarity "causes/creates" certain people's removal from your life, is personal/relative, experiential content/seeing.
The vantage point that reveals the perfection is not one of 'movement/sequential story unfolding.' It's one of stillness.....imminent presence to THIS/NOW. In that imminent stillness, there is no idea/sense of some-thing unfolding or 'being created/catalyzed/caused.'
I do get it that you've "experienced" certain people disappearing from your life on the heels of new clarity, but that does not mean that it is Absolute Truth that your new seeing/clarity actually WAS causal/creative catalyst to that removal.
To truly see through ALL separation is to also see through causality....volition....time....
Those still to some degree remain a facet of the story, but seeing through causality means you no longer hold to the idea of "creation" as Truth.
|
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Jun 20, 2023 12:42:44 GMT -5
You have been immersed in your belief. Ask a simple question, If you know nobody is responsible for what's happening, then why are you angry and for what? Would you go and stab the character who acted in the movie after completing the movie? Don't know that's scripted? You cannot know for certain the depth of resistance arising by simply observing. I define "anger" as something beyond mere arising/falling irritation/frustration; It's involves the presence of a judgment so deep that that the condition being judged is deemed to be fundamentally "intolerable." It's an absence of the illumination/unobscured shining through of fundamental perfection.
There's an issue in simply observing responses of folks on forums and thinking you can know for certain that their judgments actually extend that deep.
Probably because I've been a happy camper with an extremely optimistic outlook for the last thirty years or so, and rarely felt any significant or lasting anger, I see that issue somewhat differently. It seems to me that anger is on the extreme end of a spectrum that has minor irritation on the other end. I occasionally meet people who appear to have serious anger issues, but in most cases it seems to be a result of heavy stress, anxiety, fear, or past trauma. I've noticed that alcohol seems to release suppressed anger in a some people and I assume that it results in most cases from past trauma. As you note, it's difficult to know exactly what generates anger in other people. The only sage I know about who has claimed never to get angry is Eckhart Tolle, but his lifestyle is extraordinarily unusual compared to most people. I suspect that road rage and other expressions of significant anger probably arise due to financial or other forms of lifestyle stress. Hard to know. |
|
|
|
Post by figrebirth on Jun 20, 2023 12:53:33 GMT -5
You cannot know for certain the depth of resistance arising by simply observing. I define "anger" as something beyond mere arising/falling irritation/frustration; It's involves the presence of a judgment so deep that that the condition being judged is deemed to be fundamentally "intolerable." It's an absence of the illumination/unobscured shining through of fundamental perfection.
There's an issue in simply observing responses of folks on forums and thinking you can know for certain that their judgments actually extend that deep.
Probably because I've been a happy camper with an extremely optimistic outlook for the last thirty years or so, and rarely felt any significant or lasting anger, I see that issue somewhat differently. It seems to me that anger is on the extreme end of a spectrum that has minor irritation on the other end. I occasionally meet people who appear to have serious anger issues, but in most cases it seems to be a result of heavy stress, anxiety, fear, or past trauma. I've noticed that alcohol seems to release suppressed anger in a some people and I assume that it results in most cases from past trauma. As you note, it's difficult to know exactly what generates anger in other people. The only sage I know about who has claimed never to get angry is Eckhart Tolle, but his lifestyle is extraordinarily unusual compared to most people. I suspect that road rage and other expressions of significant anger probably arise due to financial or other forms of lifestyle stress. Hard to know. This is a conversation that really is only going to spin endlessly until and unless all partaking can agree on what they mean by the term "anger."
I am very specific. For me that term "anger" in these convos = a sense/feeling of separation in play.
"Blameful Anger," arises in the midst of the mental overlay of an SVP that takes unproblematic, transiently arising/falling irritation/frustration/mild resistance towards an arising condition, and heaps upon it a feeling/sense/judgment of an SVP....those feelings are thereby anchored in...have staying power....stickiness.
Irritation is a mild sense of "I don't like this...this is annoying," that arises in one moment, falls in the next, whereas "Blameful anger," has fundamental judgment at it's core. It is consuming and persistent.
|
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Jun 20, 2023 13:35:08 GMT -5
Probably because I've been a happy camper with an extremely optimistic outlook for the last thirty years or so, and rarely felt any significant or lasting anger, I see that issue somewhat differently. It seems to me that anger is on the extreme end of a spectrum that has minor irritation on the other end. I occasionally meet people who appear to have serious anger issues, but in most cases it seems to be a result of heavy stress, anxiety, fear, or past trauma. I've noticed that alcohol seems to release suppressed anger in a some people and I assume that it results in most cases from past trauma. As you note, it's difficult to know exactly what generates anger in other people. The only sage I know about who has claimed never to get angry is Eckhart Tolle, but his lifestyle is extraordinarily unusual compared to most people. I suspect that road rage and other expressions of significant anger probably arise due to financial or other forms of lifestyle stress. Hard to know. This is a conversation that really is only going to spin endlessly until and unless all partaking can agree on what they mean by the term "anger."
I am very specific. For me that term "anger" in these convos = a sense/feeling of separation in play.
"Blameful Anger," arises in the midst of the mental overlay of an SVP that takes unproblematic, transiently arising/falling irritation/frustration/mild resistance towards an arising condition, and heaps upon it a feeling/sense/judgment of an SVP....those feelings are thereby anchored in...have staying power....stickiness. Irritation is a mild sense of "I don't like this...this is annoying," that arises in one moment, falls in the next, whereas "Blameful anger," has fundamental judgment at it's core. It is consuming and persistent.
Defined in that way, then I guess I'm in the Tolle camp and didn't know it. I always thought of anger as extreme irritation or annoyance, so I hope Gopal reads this cause he's been banging on about this for years and years!  |
|
|
|
Post by figrebirth on Jun 20, 2023 13:52:52 GMT -5
This is a conversation that really is only going to spin endlessly until and unless all partaking can agree on what they mean by the term "anger."
I am very specific. For me that term "anger" in these convos = a sense/feeling of separation in play.
"Blameful Anger," arises in the midst of the mental overlay of an SVP that takes unproblematic, transiently arising/falling irritation/frustration/mild resistance towards an arising condition, and heaps upon it a feeling/sense/judgment of an SVP....those feelings are thereby anchored in...have staying power....stickiness. Irritation is a mild sense of "I don't like this...this is annoying," that arises in one moment, falls in the next, whereas "Blameful anger," has fundamental judgment at it's core. It is consuming and persistent.
Defined in that way, then I guess I'm in the Tolle camp and didn't know it. I always thought of anger as extreme irritation or annoyance, so I hope Gopal reads this cause he's been banging on about this for years and years! I would say that absent the sense of separation, that's precisely what goes; The "extremity" of resistance-based feelings. It's all about the "depth" of the feeling. Feelings of discord CAN only run so deep when they're absent the sense of separation heaped on top of them.....thus, that, in my opinion, takes care of "extreme."
But again, that's a term that may mean different things to different folks. Feelings of discord I think are very difficult to talk about/describe/compare, but it's important to dig down and ascertain a commonality of definition as there really IS an important difference between a momentary arising of 'don't like that,' vs. a feeling of suffering/separation/'I find that intolerable.'
|
|
|
|
Post by andrew on Jun 20, 2023 13:56:53 GMT -5
I'd say...
Irritation/Frustration/Annoyance/Anger = The experience of 'I'm not getting what I want/need (or believe I want/need) in this moment'
There's an aspect of resistance contained within in. Maybe that resistance is useful to the situation at hand, maybe not. Some folks get annoyed when they are hungry ('hangry')... maybe that annoyance is a useful physical sign to stop what they are doing, and eat.
Life is messy.
As Fig suggested, perhaps one indicator of spiritual evolution is how 'sticky' the experience is i.e how long it lingers when the moment has passed and the condition has changed.
|
|
|
|
Post by inavalan on Jun 20, 2023 14:15:44 GMT -5
Have you ever tried to interpret those situations, to understand why are they in your reality? What are you supposed to learn from them? I guess that you believe that they don't reflect your inner-reality, and that they are caused by forces independent from you. I believe that all of us who experience those, brought them into our individual realities through our beliefs, emotions, free-will incorrect choices, and that each one of us is supposed to interpret them, learn lessons, and apply those lessons. Some will, some won't. Rather than focusing/inquiring into the events/conditions themselves, I say it's far more fruitful to inquire into your judgments and feelings about them....how deep do those judgments go? Are you able or not to see an inherent, fundamental perfection even in those conditions that are not conforming with your personal preferences/likes? You didn't understand what I wrote. As expected. Then went off with your cliches. As expected. |
|
|
|
Post by figrebirth on Jun 20, 2023 14:39:18 GMT -5
Rather than focusing/inquiring into the events/conditions themselves, I say it's far more fruitful to inquire into your judgments and feelings about them....how deep do those judgments go? Are you able or not to see an inherent, fundamental perfection even in those conditions that are not conforming with your personal preferences/likes? You didn't understand what I wrote. As expected. Then went off with your cliches. As expected. Seemed quite clear; what you reference as "situations" that you suggested be inquired into, is the condition/apparent event, as a whole. Whereas I am suggesting, let all those experiential, appearing events/conditions/situations/circumstances go and focus upon the feeling/emotional responses TO them instead. |
|
|
|
Post by figrebirth on Jun 20, 2023 14:41:40 GMT -5
I'd say... Irritation/Frustration/Annoyance/Anger = The experience of 'I'm not getting what I want/need (or believe I want/need) in this moment' There's an aspect of resistance contained within in. Maybe that resistance is useful to the situation at hand, maybe not. Some folks get annoyed when they are hungry ('hangry')... maybe that annoyance is a useful physical sign to stop what they are doing, and eat. Life is messy. As Fig suggested, perhaps one indicator of spiritual evolution is how 'sticky' the experience is i.e how long it lingers when the moment has passed and the condition has changed. That's it. My very definition of "anger" per se, in these convos has inherent to it, precisely, that stickiness. Mere Irritation/frustration on the other hand, indicate a fleeting, very temporal arising and ebbing on through.
|
|
|
|
Post by inavalan on Jun 20, 2023 15:07:30 GMT -5
You didn't understand what I wrote. As expected. Then went off with your cliches. As expected. Seemed quite clear; what you reference as "situations" that you suggested be inquired into, is the condition/apparent event, as a whole. Whereas I am suggesting, let all those experiential, appearing events/conditions/situations/circumstances go and focus upon the feeling/emotional responses TO them instead. ... Your "feeling/emotional responses TO them" materialize into "all those experiential, appearing events/conditions/situations/circumstances". Not vice-versa, as you believe. Why am I wasting my time? For others who might read and be open to understand, and flip. |
|
|
|
Post by inavalan on Jun 20, 2023 15:17:39 GMT -5
I'd say... Irritation/Frustration/Annoyance/Anger = The experience of 'I'm not getting what I want/need (or believe I want/need) in this moment' There's an aspect of resistance contained within in. Maybe that resistance is useful to the situation at hand, maybe not. Some folks get annoyed when they are hungry ('hangry')... maybe that annoyance is a useful physical sign to stop what they are doing, and eat. Life is messy. As Fig suggested, perhaps one indicator of spiritual evolution is how 'sticky' the experience is i.e how long it lingers when the moment has passed and the condition has changed. The " lingering" is caused by your inadequately dealing with an emotion as it arises. That's usually the result of your conditioning with detrimental beliefs, misinterpretation of concepts like: love, compassion, acceptance, good / evil, oneness, god, ... |
|
|
|
Post by inavalan on Jun 20, 2023 15:27:12 GMT -5
If you're comfortable, you're not doing it right. The reverse is not true.
|
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Jun 20, 2023 15:56:14 GMT -5
I'd say... Irritation/Frustration/Annoyance/Anger = The experience of 'I'm not getting what I want/need (or believe I want/need) in this moment' There's an aspect of resistance contained within in. Maybe that resistance is useful to the situation at hand, maybe not. Some folks get annoyed when they are hungry ('hangry')... maybe that annoyance is a useful physical sign to stop what they are doing, and eat. Life is messy. As Fig suggested, perhaps one indicator of spiritual evolution is how 'sticky' the experience is i.e how long it lingers when the moment has passed and the condition has changed. That's it. My very definition of "anger" per se, in these convos has inherent to it, precisely, that stickiness. Mere Irritation/frustration on the other hand, indicate a fleeting, very temporal arising and ebbing on through.
That's what I assumed you meant--fleeting with no carryover. Much like little children who get irritated with one another and five minutes later they're playing happily again. As an adult, no thoughts like "it shouldn't have happened," no thoughts about selfhood, just empty irritation that sometimes goes beyond a mild response. I was calling that stronger response "anger," but I guess we could find another word for it. One example that I vividly remember involved a concrete truck driver. A helper and I were pouring footings in hot weather, and what I assume was a poorly-trained driver was dumping too much concrete into the trenches, which required extraordinary effort to drag and level the stiff concrete (anyone who has dragged concrete with a come-along or a rake in hot weather will understand the issue--it makes you pull your guts out). We kept telling the guy to watch the grade stakes and not dump too much concrete as he moved forward, but he kept doing it. After twenty minutes of this, my helper and I got what I would call "angrier and angrier" because he was killing us, but he refused to slow the discharge rate or respond to what we kept telling him. Either that or he was so clueless that he didn't realize the amount of additional work he was making us do. Afterwards, I called the concrete company and told them to never send us that driver again. On that particular day we definitely blamed the guy for making us work ten times harder than would have been necessary if a good driver had been at the wheel of the truck. We went from being increasingly irritated to totally pissed off and exhausted by the time he left the site. I suppose someone sitting in an air-conditioned room thinking logically might conclude that our response was utterly unenlightened, but I would love to see such a person put in the same situation. Could things have been any different? No, because that's the driver that got sent to us, and that was how reality unfolded that day. There were no thoughts about how things should have been any different; it was simply, "Expletive! Expletive! Expletive! Stop killing us!" I call that response "anger," and I don't think it has a thing to do with how deeply realized someone is. |
|
