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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2022 3:07:13 GMT -5
It's 12'o clock now! Merry Christmas to all my friends here ! Yes, கிறிஸ்துமஸ் வாழ்த்துக்கள் and may all who dare realize a virgin rebirth.  Thank you so much! But there is no virgin birth even in the case of Jesus! |
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Post by Reefs on Dec 25, 2022 5:00:55 GMT -5
"“ Love your neighbor as yourself.” Turn this around and say, “ Love yourself as you love your neighbor,” for often you will recognize the goodness in another and ignore it in yourself. Some people believe there is a great merit and holy virtue in what they think of as humility. Therefore to be proud of oneself seems a sin, and in that frame of reference true affirmation of the self is impossible. Genuine self-pride is the loving recognition of your own integrity and value. True humility is based upon this affectionate regard for yourself, plus the recognition that you live in a universe in which all other beings also possess this undeniable individuality and self-worth. False humility tells you that you are nothing. It often hides a distorted, puffed-up, denied self-pride, because no man or woman can really accept a theory that denies personal self-worth. Fake humility can cause you to tear down the value of others, because if you accept no worth in yourself you cannot see it in anyone else either. True self-pride allows you to perceive the integrity of your fellow human beings and permits you to help them use their strengths. Many people make a great show out of helping others, for example, encouraging them to lean upon them. They believe this to be a quite holy, virtuous enterprise. Instead they are keeping other people from recognizing and using their own strengths and abilities. ... Now: There is nothing more pompous than false humility." —NoPR Part Two: Chapter 21: Session 674, July 2, 1973 YESSS!!! This notion of glorifying humility is what religious people do, to display their moral superiority. Nietzsche already rebelled against that kind of attitude which is basically anti-life. He called it 'moraline' (das Moralin), which he saw as a kind of poison that slowly kills your natural exuberance and zest for life. I also remember a quote from Seth about religion and the glorification of poverty, especially in Buddhism with its nihilistic tendencies. Religions often just teach unworthiness and they make use of words like humility and humbleness and meekness a lot. As Seth says, exuberance is where it's at. Abe call it joy. I call it thriving. Just watch children at play or athletes like basketball or soccer players when they are in the zone and perform incredible feats - they are boisterous and full of themselves! My guess is that some people here got these false ideas about the virtue of humility from reading the books of some followers of Ramana (like David Godman, who wrote a lot about Ramana and published many of his talks) and who all somewhat deified Ramana as someone who couldn't hurt a fly or do anything wrong and turned him into a caricature. Based on what I have observed, it's usually those followers of great masters who didn't fully get the message but went out to spread the word anyway who then take the spiritual behaviorism and moraline route - because that's all they've got. Those who got the message and deside to spread the word, are usually fully on their own and create their own teaching. They don't live on the quotes and stories from their master. They are a living example of the teaching of their master themselves. That's why I prefer truthin' over truth, i.e. the living truth over something conceptualized as truth. I got some similar flak when I talked about the feeling of invincibility a while ago. Same issue, same reasons. People often don't realize how deep their own social and religious conditioning actually goes until they bump into some renegade who breaks all the officially accepted rules for sages and is happy and at peace anyway. You'll find a lot of that in Zen stories. Great sages don't dedicate their lives to others or live to serve humanity. They just live. They live their life at peace and in alignment with their true Self and by doing so they can't help but uplift those they interact with and so the greater whole benefits greatly by their mere existence, just by being themselves, without a care about the world or others. If everyone takes care of themselves first, the world is taken care of. Similar to how organisms function. Every cell cares only for and about itself and does what it is meant to do and naturally suited to do and as a result the entire organism thrives. That also works for groups, organizations and nations. Everyone selfishly follows their own bliss and natural inclination and as a result the whole thrives and also expands and evolves. |
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Post by zazeniac on Dec 25, 2022 12:04:19 GMT -5
"“ Love your neighbor as yourself.” Turn this around and say, “ Love yourself as you love your neighbor,” for often you will recognize the goodness in another and ignore it in yourself. Some people believe there is a great merit and holy virtue in what they think of as humility. Therefore to be proud of oneself seems a sin, and in that frame of reference true affirmation of the self is impossible. Genuine self-pride is the loving recognition of your own integrity and value. True humility is based upon this affectionate regard for yourself, plus the recognition that you live in a universe in which all other beings also possess this undeniable individuality and self-worth. False humility tells you that you are nothing. It often hides a distorted, puffed-up, denied self-pride, because no man or woman can really accept a theory that denies personal self-worth. Fake humility can cause you to tear down the value of others, because if you accept no worth in yourself you cannot see it in anyone else either. True self-pride allows you to perceive the integrity of your fellow human beings and permits you to help them use their strengths. Many people make a great show out of helping others, for example, encouraging them to lean upon them. They believe this to be a quite holy, virtuous enterprise. Instead they are keeping other people from recognizing and using their own strengths and abilities. ... Now: There is nothing more pompous than false humility." —NoPR Part Two: Chapter 21: Session 674, July 2, 1973 YESSS!!! This notion of glorifying humility is what religious people do, to display their moral superiority. Nietzsche already rebelled against that kind of attitude which is basically anti-life. He called it 'moraline' (das Moralin), which he saw as a kind of poison that slowly kills your natural exuberance and zest for life. I also remember a quote from Seth about religion and the glorification of poverty, especially in Buddhism with its nihilistic tendencies. Religions often just teach unworthiness and they make use of words like humility and humbleness and meekness a lot. As Seth says, exuberance is where it's at. Abe call it joy. I call it thriving. Just watch children at play or athletes like basketball or soccer players when they are in the zone and perform incredible feats - they are boisterous and full of themselves! My guess is that some people here got these false ideas about the virtue of humility from reading the books of some followers of Ramana (like David Godman, who wrote a lot about Ramana and published many of his talks) and who all somewhat deified Ramana as someone who couldn't hurt a fly or do anything wrong and turned him into a caricature. Based on what I have observed, it's usually those followers of great masters who didn't fully get the message but went out to spread the word anyway who then take the spiritual behaviorism and moraline route - because that's all they've got. Those who got the message and deside to spread the word, are usually fully on their own and create their own teaching. They don't live on the quotes and stories from their master. They are a living example of the teaching of their master themselves. That's why I prefer truthin' over truth, i.e. the living truth over something conceptualized as truth. I got some similar flak when I talked about the feeling of invincibility a while ago. Same issue, same reasons. People often don't realize how deep their own social and religious conditioning actually goes until they bump into some renegade who breaks all the officially accepted rules for sages and is happy and at peace anyway. You'll find a lot of that in Zen stories. Great sages don't dedicate their lives to others or live to serve humanity. They just live. They live their life at peace and in alignment with their true Self and by doing so they can't help but uplift those they interact with and so the greater whole benefits greatly by their mere existence, just by being themselves, without a care about the world or others. If everyone takes care of themselves first, the world is taken care of. Similar to how organisms function. Every cell cares only for and about itself and does what it is meant to do and naturally suited to do and as a result the entire organism thrives. That also works for groups, organizations and nations. Everyone selfishly follows their own bliss and natural inclination and as a result the whole thrives and also expands and evolves. I think you're confusing humble with austere. It, being humble, doesn't preclude warmth, fun, play, enthusiasm. It doesn't preclude being a great athlete, musician, artist or poet. It might be hard to stay humble for these folk, but humility certainly doesn't get in the way of hard work. It's basically realizing your shit stinks the same as everyone else's. It's realizing that given certain circumstances, you'd be no different than the person you're judging. Merry ho ho ho! |
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Post by zazeniac on Dec 25, 2022 12:36:51 GMT -5
YESSS!!! This notion of glorifying humility is what religious people do, to display their moral superiority. Nietzsche already rebelled against that kind of attitude which is basically anti-life. He called it 'moraline' (das Moralin), which he saw as a kind of poison that slowly kills your natural exuberance and zest for life. I also remember a quote from Seth about religion and the glorification of poverty, especially in Buddhism with its nihilistic tendencies. Religions often just teach unworthiness and they make use of words like humility and humbleness and meekness a lot. As Seth says, exuberance is where it's at. Abe call it joy. I call it thriving. Just watch children at play or athletes like basketball or soccer players when they are in the zone and perform incredible feats - they are boisterous and full of themselves! My guess is that some people here got these false ideas about the virtue of humility from reading the books of some followers of Ramana (like David Godman, who wrote a lot about Ramana and published many of his talks) and who all somewhat deified Ramana as someone who couldn't hurt a fly or do anything wrong and turned him into a caricature. Based on what I have observed, it's usually those followers of great masters who didn't fully get the message but went out to spread the word anyway who then take the spiritual behaviorism and moraline route - because that's all they've got. Those who got the message and deside to spread the word, are usually fully on their own and create their own teaching. They don't live on the quotes and stories from their master. They are a living example of the teaching of their master themselves. That's why I prefer truthin' over truth, i.e. the living truth over something conceptualized as truth. I got some similar flak when I talked about the feeling of invincibility a while ago. Same issue, same reasons. People often don't realize how deep their own social and religious conditioning actually goes until they bump into some renegade who breaks all the officially accepted rules for sages and is happy and at peace anyway. You'll find a lot of that in Zen stories. Great sages don't dedicate their lives to others or live to serve humanity. They just live. They live their life at peace and in alignment with their true Self and by doing so they can't help but uplift those they interact with and so the greater whole benefits greatly by their mere existence, just by being themselves, without a care about the world or others. If everyone takes care of themselves first, the world is taken care of. Similar to how organisms function. Every cell cares only for and about itself and does what it is meant to do and naturally suited to do and as a result the entire organism thrives. That also works for groups, organizations and nations. Everyone selfishly follows their own bliss and natural inclination and as a result the whole thrives and also expands and evolves. I think you're confusing humble with austere. It, being humble, doesn't preclude warmth, fun, play, enthusiasm. It doesn't preclude being a great athlete, musician, artist or poet. It might be hard to stay humble for these folk, but humility certainly doesn't get in the way of hard work. It's basically realizing your shit stinks the same as everyone else's. It's realizing that given certain circumstances, you'd be no different than the person you're judging. Merry ho ho ho! I forgot the most important one. It doesn't preclude self love. |
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Post by Reefs on Dec 25, 2022 13:09:35 GMT -5
YESSS!!! This notion of glorifying humility is what religious people do, to display their moral superiority. Nietzsche already rebelled against that kind of attitude which is basically anti-life. He called it 'moraline' (das Moralin), which he saw as a kind of poison that slowly kills your natural exuberance and zest for life. I also remember a quote from Seth about religion and the glorification of poverty, especially in Buddhism with its nihilistic tendencies. Religions often just teach unworthiness and they make use of words like humility and humbleness and meekness a lot. As Seth says, exuberance is where it's at. Abe call it joy. I call it thriving. Just watch children at play or athletes like basketball or soccer players when they are in the zone and perform incredible feats - they are boisterous and full of themselves! My guess is that some people here got these false ideas about the virtue of humility from reading the books of some followers of Ramana (like David Godman, who wrote a lot about Ramana and published many of his talks) and who all somewhat deified Ramana as someone who couldn't hurt a fly or do anything wrong and turned him into a caricature. Based on what I have observed, it's usually those followers of great masters who didn't fully get the message but went out to spread the word anyway who then take the spiritual behaviorism and moraline route - because that's all they've got. Those who got the message and deside to spread the word, are usually fully on their own and create their own teaching. They don't live on the quotes and stories from their master. They are a living example of the teaching of their master themselves. That's why I prefer truthin' over truth, i.e. the living truth over something conceptualized as truth. I got some similar flak when I talked about the feeling of invincibility a while ago. Same issue, same reasons. People often don't realize how deep their own social and religious conditioning actually goes until they bump into some renegade who breaks all the officially accepted rules for sages and is happy and at peace anyway. You'll find a lot of that in Zen stories. Great sages don't dedicate their lives to others or live to serve humanity. They just live. They live their life at peace and in alignment with their true Self and by doing so they can't help but uplift those they interact with and so the greater whole benefits greatly by their mere existence, just by being themselves, without a care about the world or others. If everyone takes care of themselves first, the world is taken care of. Similar to how organisms function. Every cell cares only for and about itself and does what it is meant to do and naturally suited to do and as a result the entire organism thrives. That also works for groups, organizations and nations. Everyone selfishly follows their own bliss and natural inclination and as a result the whole thrives and also expands and evolves. I think you're confusing humble with austere. It, being humble, doesn't preclude warmth, fun, play, enthusiasm. It doesn't preclude being a great athlete, musician, artist or poet. It might be hard to stay humble for these folk, but humility certainly doesn't get in the way of hard work. It's basically realizing your shit stinks the same as everyone else's. It's realizing that given certain circumstances, you'd be no different than the person you're judging. Merry ho ho ho! I forgot the most important one. It doesn't preclude self love. Certainly not. But it does seem to me that you are confusing conventional wisdom with enlightenment and equality with sameness. Let's go back to how this argument started. You said: ... sages say you can't "know" God, you can only BE God... ... enlightenment is not an aggrandizement, but rather profoundly humbling... ... jnani's dedicate themselves to so-called others because there are no other's. There is only Self... Now, the first line I fully agree with. This is the context from where I am arguing. The second line, I have to disagree with, because it directly contradicts your first line. The third line I have to disagree with also, not because it directly contradicts your first line but because you were drawing the wrong conclusions. So, let's look at what humble or humbling means. I'll give you the Collins definitions because they usually have the best definitions, together with Webster and Oxford, and they also tend to cover all the finer nuances. Interestingly, there is a slight difference between British English and American English. In BE the meaning of humble seems entirely negative. In AE, however, there's an additional meaning that is more neutral: Merry ho ho ho back to you! |
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Post by laughter on Dec 25, 2022 14:02:52 GMT -5
... The bottom line? Anyone who falls into NS will have no doubts about that state of pure awareness. I skipped to your last sentence ... A state of pure awareness isn't a goal for me. I experienced it, and moved past it. You don't even need to go through it. Thanks for taking the time to reply. , similar to your opinions about SR, and resonant with what you've written about certainty, there's certainly a possibility that you're incorrect, and that both NS and a "realization which suffuses all future perception", are simply a color you've never seen, a melody you've never heard, and a flavor you've never tasted. Sorry if that sounds arrogant. I can understand how it comes off that way, fwiw, there's no such sentiment intended. |
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Post by zazeniac on Dec 25, 2022 14:25:09 GMT -5
I think you're confusing humble with austere. It, being humble, doesn't preclude warmth, fun, play, enthusiasm. It doesn't preclude being a great athlete, musician, artist or poet. It might be hard to stay humble for these folk, but humility certainly doesn't get in the way of hard work. It's basically realizing your shit stinks the same as everyone else's. It's realizing that given certain circumstances, you'd be no different than the person you're judging. Merry ho ho ho! I forgot the most important one. It doesn't preclude self love. Certainly not. But it does seem to me that you are confusing conventional wisdom with enlightenment and equality with sameness. Let's go back to how this argument started. You said: ... sages say you can't "know" God, you can only BE God... ... enlightenment is not an aggrandizement, but rather profoundly humbling... ... jnani's dedicate themselves to so-called others because there are no other's. There is only Self... Now, the first line I fully agree with. This is the context from where I am arguing. The second line, I have to disagree with, because it directly contradicts your first line. The third line I have to disagree with also, not because it directly contradicts your first line but because you were drawing the wrong conclusions. So, let's look at what humble or humbling means. I'll give you the Collins definitions because they usually have the best definitions, together with Webster and Oxford, and they also tend to cover all the finer nuances. Interestingly, there is a slight difference between British English and American English. In BE the meaning of humble seems entirely negative. In AE, however, there's an additional meaning that is more neutral: Merry ho ho ho back to you! By the way, I'm humbled by your acumen. But not as humbled as I am about my own. Which humble diminishes me? Muahahaha! |
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Post by inavalan on Dec 25, 2022 14:30:46 GMT -5
I skipped to your last sentence ... A state of pure awareness isn't a goal for me. I experienced it, and moved past it. You don't even need to go through it. Thanks for taking the time to reply. , similar to your opinions about SR, and resonant with what you've written about certainty, there's certainly a possibility that you're incorrect, and that both NS and a "realization which suffuses all future perception", are simply a color you've never seen, a melody you've never heard, and a flavor you've never tasted. Sorry if that sounds arrogant. I can understand how it comes off that way, fwiw, there's no such sentiment intended. I agree. Thanks. This is why I believe that everybody should only follow their own inner-source of knowledge and guidance. |
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Post by inavalan on Dec 25, 2022 14:41:45 GMT -5
This exchange about words and meanings shows that the words, and how we use them, reflect and affect our thoughts and understanding.
In a discussion with an acquaintance, it stroke me his use of the word "cattle", which made me think about how we use "cow", "cattle", "beef", function of our perception. Other languages don't make that distinction.
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Post by Reefs on Dec 25, 2022 21:06:35 GMT -5
Certainly not. But it does seem to me that you are confusing conventional wisdom with enlightenment and equality with sameness. Let's go back to how this argument started. You said: Now, the first line I fully agree with. This is the context from where I am arguing. The second line, I have to disagree with, because it directly contradicts your first line. The third line I have to disagree with also, not because it directly contradicts your first line but because you were drawing the wrong conclusions. So, let's look at what humble or humbling means. I'll give you the Collins definitions because they usually have the best definitions, together with Webster and Oxford, and they also tend to cover all the finer nuances. Interestingly, there is a slight difference between British English and American English. In BE the meaning of humble seems entirely negative. In AE, however, there's an additional meaning that is more neutral: Merry ho ho ho back to you! By the way, I'm humbled by your acumen. But not as humbled as I am about my own. Which humble diminishes me? Muahahaha! I'd say, just stop humbling around and your (un)worthiness issues will disappear. BTW, here's wiki on how to be humble: www.wikihow.com/Be-HumbleSome good stuff there, but also notice how this perspective has some strong beliefs in lack, personal limitations and unworthiness mixed in. |
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Post by Reefs on Dec 25, 2022 21:33:50 GMT -5
This exchange about words and meanings shows that the words, and how we use them, reflect and affect our thoughts and understanding. In a discussion with an acquaintance, it stroke me his use of the word "cattle", which made me think about how we use "cow", "cattle", "beef", function of our perception. Other languages don't make that distinction. Not only that, the words we use also affect our state of being, especially so-called trigger words. That's how moving up the emotional scale works. In that sense, it can be very useful to our own state of well-being. But that's also how manipulation in politics, the news media and business works where the goal is to just trigger a specific emotion that will lead to a specific action by which the other seeks to profit or benefit from us. In that sense, it can be very detrimental to our own state of well-being. What I always find interesting when learning a foreign language is how little native speakers know about their own language and how unsure they often are about finer details in word meanings or grammar. Usually as a native speaker you have a good feeling of what sounds right and correct, but you are unable to say why that is. People often have the goal to speak like a native because they think native speakers have perfect command of their own language, but in reality, native speakers make a lot of mistakes also. |
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Post by zazeniac on Dec 25, 2022 22:19:25 GMT -5
By the way, I'm humbled by your acumen. But not as humbled as I am about my own. Which humble diminishes me? Muahahaha! I'd say, just stop humbling around and your (un)worthiness issues will disappear. BTW, here's wiki on how to be humble: www.wikihow.com/Be-HumbleSome good stuff there, but also notice how this perspective has some strong beliefs in lack, personal limitations and unworthiness mixed in. If you're trying to be humble. Folks can.usually tell. They avoid you like the plague. It has to come "naturally.." I wouldn't be able to pull it off. Some folks who feel unworthy have a need to feel in control, a thirst for power. The folks you like. How many NFTs have you bought? Nice try. |
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Post by ouroboros on Dec 26, 2022 9:35:38 GMT -5
Oh, I didn't notice how the conversation started. But humility is a different flavour from selflessness really, it's just that they are connected. For example, Buddhist practitioners believe that only a humble mind can readily recognize its own defilements of craving, aversion, and ignorance. Whereas, depending on context, selflessness would be more about either anatta, or being concerned more with the needs and wishes of others than with one's own, i.e. unselfish. (Although I understand the latter is contentious, and can lead to halo polishing). I don't really see that portraying humility as more than merely a low opinion of oneself involves much if anything in the way of contortion. In fact, I see the 'low' in the definitions as largely being relative to the 'unnecessarily high or inflated' that I talked about before. It's just a matter of interpretation. edit. As an aside, to my mind humility ties in with what it means to say, 'the meek shall inherit the earth'. Yeah, we went far into the weeds. This was actually about having to be God in order to realize God. But in that context humility as well as pride are the wrong words and just two side of the same coin. Those are SVP/ego categories. That was my original point. Okay, thanks for clarifying about the beginning of the discussion. I can see what you're saying about the context and I've been thinking about humility in relation to those categories as well. It's hard to put your finger on because of the nature of those, but I was thinking along the lines that the notion of humility still works fine enough from a third mountain perspective. It's hard to qualify that, other than to say it would be verb-like and a movement 'within', and ultimately, in no way separate from 'the greater movement'. But I still say, a quality not without value. For example, I might align it with becoming/being conscious as well as coming empty, (which is perhaps how it connects with a measure of seflessness). Agreed. I've been considering too about those who compile the definitions and how most of them are likely marred in consensus trance perspective. To be fair the definitions are probably only ever a cross section of the nuances of usage in gen pop anyway, a best concise representation if you like. But moreover that the dictionary definitions are perhaps restricted by the limits of insight of the specific lexicographer's themselves, and as such it may be that they don't quite capture the nuances of phrases as they are utilised specifically in a spiritual sense. Which I suppose is a flip of saying that we do tend to stretch some definitions when talking/pointing quite esoterically, and perhaps necessarily so because of the insights behind that. Another example of what I'm getting at there is that, when I was talking about the 'low' in many of the definitions of humility as being relative to 'unnecessarily high, or inflated', I was considering that might even apply as relative to a consensus trance level perspective, of oneself, i.e. the lexicographer. To a full on SVP in particular, there are nuances of humility that may be misinterpreted as somenoe merely having a low opinion of themselves, but I say there's more to it.
Of course, the definitions can apply specifically to the implication you put forward as well, which compounds the situation. In fact, especially the variation of 'meek' will most often refer to, or be intended to signify someone who is timid and unsure of themselves. I always get a good cross section of definitions and always look at the etymology too. That last one is a particularly good tip, I find it's useful to look at the evolution of the usage. Thanks, that's a handy tool. Well, I've elaborated a little here about what's behind my usage, and as I say, for me humility and selflessness are connected. ZD seems to feel similarly. So yes, keep it in mind and I will too, and what's behind it may become more evident as we go along. I still don't really see it as reinventing or redefining, or particularly contorting for that matter, but we can agree to disagree about that. As I say, for me it's different flavours. |
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Post by someNOTHING! on Dec 26, 2022 9:47:56 GMT -5
I like dat quote. ✅ Reminds me a little of some of Lao Tzu's take on the consensus paradigm's virtue. I understand why people would say that, but it is detrimental to think that way. It is the difference between "wanting to be healthy", and "accepting to be sick and hoping for less pain". You can't get rid of pain if you want "less pain". You can't get rid of pain if you want "no pain". Doing so you reinforce the belief that manifested as that pain. This isn't about "affirmations". I getcha. I understand why people might say that and also how it might get misconstrued, depending on the clarity of the situation. The same could be said about one saying that it is always 'detrimental to think that way'. I have used an inauthentic 'Christian-oriented brand of humility' when working for long periods amongst missionaries in order to just 'get along' and not draw too much attention (for the most part), though I somewhat knew that my deeper colors were probably apparent to some of them. That worked out just fine, and was actually fortuitous for a couple folks who drew me into their deeper stories of angst and conflict for which they had joined working amongst said group. If I have time, there's actually a pretty interesting story to tell in that regard. All in all, the inauthentic use of that brand of humility in that context was a conscious one. I was never really put into a position where I had to make a stand on deeper Truth, though I did intimate such a stand fairly directly, causing visible confusion in a 'believer's' eyes.... another few interesting stories. But, all that said, the discussion might better be served with respect to contexts, conscious alignment/awareness, and authenticity with respect to one's honesty with oneself and/or that in relation to others. Could get messy, which is fine. Using words to describe perspectives on duality, which is under the sway of perceived logic/probability, works that way. Right, it cuts much deeper than affirmations. |
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Post by someNOTHING! on Dec 26, 2022 9:55:50 GMT -5
Yes, கிறிஸ்துமஸ் வாழ்த்துக்கள் and may all who dare realize a virgin rebirth. Thank you so much! But there is no virgin birth even in the case of Jesus! Well, I wrote 'virgin rebirth', but yeah, maybe that story is more about the Easter stuff, if ya know what I mean.  |
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