Sleep, awareness, consciousness and body-intelligence

[stardustpilgrim]

It's generally accepted here that awareness precedes everything, is primary, primordial. I agree. We all enter a period of unconsciousness every 24, sleep. If we are primarily awareness, and awareness supersedes, thought, feelings/emotions, bodily movements and sensations, then why do we ~go unconscious~ when we sleep? (Not saying there are no exceptions). Furthermore, in nirvikalpa samadhi, only-awareness-remains. So why doesn't one go-in-to nirvikalpa samadhi, during sleep? (For those who have experienced nirvikalpa samadhi). It seems we are all (mostly all) subject to the body, that awareness is subject to the needs of the body. Something seems amiss.

Now, as you get older, dudes, you will have the following experience, you probably have at least on occasion, anyway. In the winter 5 hours is about my max, sometimes longer if I deliberately stop fluids after about 5PM, I can go 8 hours in the summer (sweating factor), nice. But usually during the night my bladder wakes me up and says, empty me now, I'll give you about one minute to start. So the body is exceptionally intelligent, it will wake us up to avoid, an *accident*. I had to look the name up, but we can narrow this issue down to the urethral sphincters, muscles. So it seems a battle ensues while we are yet asleep, between a full bladder and the pee-cut-off muscle. Of course, we know who wins and thusly wakes us up. (There is one more issue involved, the older you get gravity becomes part of the equation. I never understood this about my Father. He could be sitting quite comfortably, and then need to go, and when he got up, the need to go intensified beyond any proportion considered possible. Now I understand how gravity gets involved).

So it seems in such a case that body-intelligence even supersedes and surpasses awareness, as it ~controls~ access to awareness. It seems body-intelligence supersedes even nirvikalpa samadhi. Surely awareness doesn't need sleep, I'm sure awareness doesn't need sleep. So I'm also sure something is ~out of whack~ here, something is missing.

[zendancer]

Dec 20, 2022 13:01:47 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

It's generally accepted here that awareness precedes everything, is primary, primordial. I agree. We all enter a period of unconsciousness every 24, sleep. If we are primarily awareness, and awareness supersedes, thought, feelings/emotions, bodily movements and sensations, then why do we ~go unconscious~ when we sleep? (Not saying there are no exceptions). Furthermore, in nirvikalpa samadhi, only-awareness-remains. So why doesn't one go-in-to nirvikalpa samadhi, during sleep? (For those who have experienced nirvikalpa samadhi). It seems we are all (mostly all) subject to the body, that awareness is subject to the needs of the body. Something seems amiss.

Now, as you get older, dudes, you will have the following experience, you probably have at least on occasion, anyway. In the winter 5 hours is about my max, sometimes longer if I deliberately stop fluids after about 5PM, I can go 8 hours in the summer (sweating factor), nice. But usually during the night my bladder wakes me up and says, empty me now, I'll give you about one minute to start. So the body is exceptionally intelligent, it will wake us up to avoid, an *accident*. I had to look the name up, but we can narrow this issue down to the urethral sphincters, muscles. So it seems a battle ensues while we are yet asleep, between a full bladder and the pee-cut-off muscle. Of course, we know who wins and thusly wakes us up. (There is one more issue involved, the older you get gravity becomes part of the equation. I never understood this about my Father. He could be sitting quite comfortably, and then need to go, and when he got up, the need to go intensified beyond any proportion considered possible. Now I understand how gravity gets involved).

So it seems in such a case that body-intelligence even supersedes and surpasses awareness, as it ~controls~ access to awareness. It seems body-intelligence supersedes even nirvikalpa samadhi. Surely awareness doesn't need sleep, I'm sure awareness doesn't need sleep. So I'm also sure something is ~out of whack~ here, something is missing.

That's an interesting question. First, NS is an extremely deep state in which there is no body awareness at all. As one enters that state, one's breathing and heart rate slow down so much that if almost feels as if one has stopped breathing. There is also a distinct feeling of coolness, so ordinary body functions may go into a kind of suspended animation in that state. I cannot remember the need to go to the bathroom ever occurring while in that state, but that state rarely lasted more than a few hours at a time. Supposedly Ramana stayed in NS for days on end, but I can't remember anybody writing anything specific about his daily routine during that time period. We know that he stayed seated in NS for such a long period of time that insects damaged the skin on his legs and left him crippled, but how often he ate food, drank liquids, or went to the bathroom has never been reported as far as I know.

The reason that one would NOT go into NS when asleep is because there is no intense one-pointed focus of attention, and that is a necessary precursor to entering that state. More later....

[inavalan]

Dec 20, 2022 13:01:47 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

It's generally accepted here that awareness precedes everything, is primary, primordial. I agree. We all enter a period of unconsciousness every 24, sleep. If we are primarily awareness, and awareness supersedes, thought, feelings/emotions, bodily movements and sensations, then why do we ~go unconscious~ when we sleep? (Not saying there are no exceptions). Furthermore, in nirvikalpa samadhi, only-awareness-remains. So why doesn't one go-in-to nirvikalpa samadhi, during sleep? (For those who have experienced nirvikalpa samadhi). It seems we are all (mostly all) subject to the body, that awareness is subject to the needs of the body. Something seems amiss.

Now, as you get older, dudes, you will have the following experience, you probably have at least on occasion, anyway. In the winter 5 hours is about my max, sometimes longer if I deliberately stop fluids after about 5PM, I can go 8 hours in the summer (sweating factor), nice. But usually during the night my bladder wakes me up and says, empty me now, I'll give you about one minute to start. So the body is exceptionally intelligent, it will wake us up to avoid, an *accident*. I had to look the name up, but we can narrow this issue down to the urethral sphincters, muscles. So it seems a battle ensues while we are yet asleep, between a full bladder and the pee-cut-off muscle. Of course, we know who wins and thusly wakes us up. (There is one more issue involved, the older you get gravity becomes part of the equation. I never understood this about my Father. He could be sitting quite comfortably, and then need to go, and when he got up, the need to go intensified beyond any proportion considered possible. Now I understand how gravity gets involved).

So it seems in such a case that body-intelligence even supersedes and surpasses awareness, as it ~controls~ access to awareness. It seems body-intelligence supersedes even nirvikalpa samadhi. Surely awareness doesn't need sleep, I'm sure awareness doesn't need sleep. So I'm also sure something is ~out of whack~ here, something is missing.

I don't subscribe to your assumptions.

Sleep isn't unconscious: your "awareness" is focused elsewhere than the physical; your physical-senses are dimmed down, and your inner-senses become primary.

Consciousness "precedes" matter, creates matter; not the other way around. Consciousness is primary.

You seem to call "awareness" the state of "being awake". "Awareness" is a feature of your non-physical identity, and it can be focused in other states than "awake". In that sense it is primordial. The "awake state" isn't primordial. Comparatively, the "dream state" as part of the "sleep state" (as called from the physical ego's perspective) are "more" primordial than the "awake state".

Actually those states aren't really on / off, but they move between the foreground and the background of the "awareness" ' focus.

"Awareness" isn't subject to the body's needs. It may respond to physical-stimuli, when it is mostly focused into other states than "awake", but the body is managed by the "subconscious" (which actually creates the physical-body, as everything else you perceive).

The "body intelligence" is part of the "subconscious".

"Awareness" never sleeps; it changes focus.

This makes sense to me.

[inavalan]

Dec 20, 2022 15:13:23 GMT -5 zendancer said:

Dec 20, 2022 13:01:47 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

It's generally accepted ...
... usually during the night my bladder wakes me up and says, empty me now ...

... Supposedly Ramana stayed in NS for days on end, but I can't remember anybody writing anything specific about his daily routine during that time period. We know that he stayed seated in NS for such a long period of time that insects damaged the skin on his legs and left him crippled, but how often he ate food, drank liquids, or went to the bathroom has never been reported as far as I know. ...

He wore a diaper.

[stardustpilgrim]

Dec 20, 2022 16:01:14 GMT -5 inavalan said:

Dec 20, 2022 13:01:47 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

It's generally accepted here that awareness precedes everything, is primary, primordial. I agree. We all enter a period of unconsciousness every 24, sleep. If we are primarily awareness, and awareness supersedes, thought, feelings/emotions, bodily movements and sensations, then why do we ~go unconscious~ when we sleep? (Not saying there are no exceptions). Furthermore, in nirvikalpa samadhi, only-awareness-remains. So why doesn't one go-in-to nirvikalpa samadhi, during sleep? (For those who have experienced nirvikalpa samadhi). It seems we are all (mostly all) subject to the body, that awareness is subject to the needs of the body. Something seems amiss.

Now, as you get older, dudes, you will have the following experience, you probably have at least on occasion, anyway. In the winter 5 hours is about my max, sometimes longer if I deliberately stop fluids after about 5PM, I can go 8 hours in the summer (sweating factor), nice. But usually during the night my bladder wakes me up and says, empty me now, I'll give you about one minute to start. So the body is exceptionally intelligent, it will wake us up to avoid, an *accident*. I had to look the name up, but we can narrow this issue down to the urethral sphincters, muscles. So it seems a battle ensues while we are yet asleep, between a full bladder and the pee-cut-off muscle. Of course, we know who wins and thusly wakes us up. (There is one more issue involved, the older you get gravity becomes part of the equation. I never understood this about my Father. He could be sitting quite comfortably, and then need to go, and when he got up, the need to go intensified beyond any proportion considered possible. Now I understand how gravity gets involved).

So it seems in such a case that body-intelligence even supersedes and surpasses awareness, as it ~controls~ access to awareness. It seems body-intelligence supersedes even nirvikalpa samadhi. Surely awareness doesn't need sleep, I'm sure awareness doesn't need sleep. So I'm also sure something is ~out of whack~ here, something is missing.

I don't subscribe to your assumptions.

Sleep isn't unconscious: your "awareness" is focused elsewhere than the physical; your physical-senses are dimmed down, and your inner-senses become primary.

Consciousness "precedes" matter, creates matter; not the other way around. Consciousness is primary.

You seem to call "awareness" the state of "being awake". "Awareness" is a feature of your non-physical identity, and it can be focused in other states than "awake". In that sense it is primordial. The "awake state" isn't primordial. Comparatively, the "dream state" as part of the "sleep state" (as called from the physical ego's perspective) are "more" primordial than the "awake state".

Actually those states aren't really on / off, but they move between the foreground and the background of the "awareness" ' focus.

"Awareness" isn't subject to the body's needs. It may respond to physical-stimuli, when it is mostly focused into other states than "awake", but the body is managed by the "subconscious" (which actually creates the physical-body, as everything else you perceive).

The "body intelligence" is part of the "subconscious".

"Awareness" never sleeps; it changes focus.

This makes sense to me.

Hopefully, these get to my question. I'm asking, when awareness is focused elsewhere, is inavalan ~present~? This is the very point I'm getting to, are you aware of the awareness when it is focused elsewhere (just saying it a little differently). If you-are-not that awareness, your post, the rest of it, is just an abstraction, just theory.

If inavalan never goes unconscious, I'm pretty sure that's pretty rare.

[stardustpilgrim]

Dec 20, 2022 16:23:40 GMT -5 inavalan said:

Dec 20, 2022 15:13:23 GMT -5 zendancer said:

... Supposedly Ramana stayed in NS for days on end, but I can't remember anybody writing anything specific about his daily routine during that time period. We know that he stayed seated in NS for such a long period of time that insects damaged the skin on his legs and left him crippled, but how often he ate food, drank liquids, or went to the bathroom has never been reported as far as I know. ...

He wore a diaper.

OK, laughter's wife says that's funny.

[stardustpilgrim]

Dec 20, 2022 15:13:23 GMT -5 zendancer said:

Dec 20, 2022 13:01:47 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

It's generally accepted here that awareness precedes everything, is primary, primordial. I agree. We all enter a period of unconsciousness every 24, sleep. If we are primarily awareness, and awareness supersedes, thought, feelings/emotions, bodily movements and sensations, then why do we ~go unconscious~ when we sleep? (Not saying there are no exceptions). Furthermore, in nirvikalpa samadhi, only-awareness-remains. So why doesn't one go-in-to nirvikalpa samadhi, during sleep? (For those who have experienced nirvikalpa samadhi). It seems we are all (mostly all) subject to the body, that awareness is subject to the needs of the body. Something seems amiss.

Now, as you get older, dudes, you will have the following experience, you probably have at least on occasion, anyway. In the winter 5 hours is about my max, sometimes longer if I deliberately stop fluids after about 5PM, I can go 8 hours in the summer (sweating factor), nice. But usually during the night my bladder wakes me up and says, empty me now, I'll give you about one minute to start. So the body is exceptionally intelligent, it will wake us up to avoid, an *accident*. I had to look the name up, but we can narrow this issue down to the urethral sphincters, muscles. So it seems a battle ensues while we are yet asleep, between a full bladder and the pee-cut-off muscle. Of course, we know who wins and thusly wakes us up. (There is one more issue involved, the older you get gravity becomes part of the equation. I never understood this about my Father. He could be sitting quite comfortably, and then need to go, and when he got up, the need to go intensified beyond any proportion considered possible. Now I understand how gravity gets involved).

So it seems in such a case that body-intelligence even supersedes and surpasses awareness, as it ~controls~ access to awareness. It seems body-intelligence supersedes even nirvikalpa samadhi. Surely awareness doesn't need sleep, I'm sure awareness doesn't need sleep. So I'm also sure something is ~out of whack~ here, something is missing.

That's an interesting question. First, NS is an extremely deep state in which there is no body awareness at all. As one enters that state, one's breathing and heart rate slow down so much that if almost feels as if one has stopped breathing. There is also a distinct feeling of coolness, so ordinary body functions may go into a kind of suspended animation in that state. I cannot remember the need to go to the bathroom ever occurring while in that state, but that state rarely lasted more than a few hours at a time. Supposedly Ramana stayed in NS for days on end, but I can't remember anybody writing anything specific about his daily routine during that time period. We know that he stayed seated in NS for such a long period of time that insects damaged the skin on his legs and left him crippled, but how often he ate food, drank liquids, or went to the bathroom has never been reported as far as I know.

The reason that one would NOT go into NS when asleep is because there is no intense one-pointed focus of attention, and that is a necessary precursor to entering that state. More later....

Thanks, I've been considering this for a couple of weeks. inavalan's post (and my reply) gets more to the heart of my question, which is basically, if awareness supersedes everything, why aren't people, or at least certain people (the SR?), aware during sleep? If awareness never sleeps, why do ~*we*~ sleep (go unconscious)?

[zendancer]

Dec 20, 2022 16:54:51 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

Dec 20, 2022 15:13:23 GMT -5 zendancer said:

That's an interesting question. First, NS is an extremely deep state in which there is no body awareness at all. As one enters that state, one's breathing and heart rate slow down so much that if almost feels as if one has stopped breathing. There is also a distinct feeling of coolness, so ordinary body functions may go into a kind of suspended animation in that state. I cannot remember the need to go to the bathroom ever occurring while in that state, but that state rarely lasted more than a few hours at a time. Supposedly Ramana stayed in NS for days on end, but I can't remember anybody writing anything specific about his daily routine during that time period. We know that he stayed seated in NS for such a long period of time that insects damaged the skin on his legs and left him crippled, but how often he ate food, drank liquids, or went to the bathroom has never been reported as far as I know.

The reason that one would NOT go into NS when asleep is because there is no intense one-pointed focus of attention, and that is a necessary precursor to entering that state. More later....

Thanks, I've been considering this for a couple of weeks. inavalan's post (and my reply) gets more to the heart of my question, which is basically, if awareness supersedes everything, why aren't people, or at least certain people (the SR?), aware during sleep? If awareness never sleeps, why do ~*we*~ sleep (go unconscious)?

I think that awareness is present even in sleep or when the body is unconscious. Niz distinguished between awareness and consciousness and noted that there can be awareness without consciousness (as in NS) but there cannot be consciousness without awareness. I think he defined consciousness as consciousness OF SOMETHING whereas during NS there is nothing to be conscious of. An analogy might be how people get lost in thought while driving a car on the interstate. For twenty minutes they don't consciously notice the road or anything other than their thoughts, but THIS is intelligent and aware, and it drives the car while the intellect is totally focused on thoughts. For all practical purposes the driver is unconscious of the world during that period of time, and this may be analogous to what happens during sleep. In one case the intellect is focused on thoughts to the exclusion of all else, and during sleep the intellect is either focused on dreams or is unfocused on anything.

The problem is that the truth is undivided, and the intellect is trying to understand and make sense of things that it has distinguished as separate but are not really separate. As many of us have noted, the movie projector, the screen on which the movie is being projected, the images on the screen, and the one who is looking at the images are all part of a unified field of being, so trying to intellectually understand all of the imagined aspects of what's going on is a somewhat fraught endeavor.

[stardustpilgrim]

Dec 20, 2022 17:21:05 GMT -5 zendancer said:

Dec 20, 2022 16:54:51 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

Thanks, I've been considering this for a couple of weeks. inavalan's post (and my reply) gets more to the heart of my question, which is basically, if awareness supersedes everything, why aren't people, or at least certain people (the SR?), aware during sleep? If awareness never sleeps, why do ~*we*~ sleep (go unconscious)?

I think that awareness is present even in sleep or when the body is unconscious. Niz distinguished between awareness and consciousness and noted that there can be awareness without consciousness (as in NS) but there cannot be consciousness without awareness. I think he defined consciousness as consciousness OF SOMETHING whereas during NS there is nothing to be conscious of. An analogy might be how people get lost in thought while driving a car on the interstate. For twenty minutes they don't consciously notice the road or anything other than their thoughts, but THIS is intelligent and aware, and it drives the car while the intellect is totally focused on thoughts. For all practical purposes the driver is unconscious of the world during that period of time, and this may be analogous to what happens during sleep. In one case the intellect is focused on thoughts to the exclusion of all else, and during sleep the intellect is either focused on dreams or is unfocused on anything.

The problem is that the truth is undivided, and the intellect is trying to understand and make sense of things that it has distinguished as separate but are not really separate. As many of us have noted, the movie projector, the screen on which the movie is being projected, the images on the screen, and the one who is looking at the images are all part of a unified field of being, so trying to intellectually understand all of the imagined aspects of what's going on is a somewhat fraught endeavor.

This is completely absurd, and I never catch you in saying something absurd. How do most accidents happen? The driver's attention is captured by something other than what's right in front of him or her, and s*** happens. Getting lost in thought means we are literally driving on autopilot. If what you were saying was true then THIS as intelligent and aware would alert the driver to trouble, and *awaken* the driver, like your bladder awakens you (me) in the middle of sleep, so as not to *have an accident*.

When I was teaching each of my kids to drive I told them this is probably the most dangerous thing you will ever do in your life. (At the time I didn't know one would go into the Army, one the Air Force, and one into the Coast Guard). The body can drive on autopilot, when everything is as usual, but if a car drifts into your lane or a deer jumps out in front of you, or any one of 1,000 that could happen, happen, and your attention is not present, bad stuff can happen, people can die, or end up in a wheelchair, or a vegetable.

Yes, this is absolutely analogous to sleep, but if you have a car wreck in a dream, nobody ever dies.

And this, most all my threads and questions come from my experience, I'm not really asking for answers.

[laughter]

Dec 20, 2022 17:21:05 GMT -5 zendancer said:

Dec 20, 2022 16:54:51 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

Thanks, I've been considering this for a couple of weeks. inavalan's post (and my reply) gets more to the heart of my question, which is basically, if awareness supersedes everything, why aren't people, or at least certain people (the SR?), aware during sleep? If awareness never sleeps, why do ~*we*~ sleep (go unconscious)?

I think that awareness is present even in sleep or when the body is unconscious. Niz distinguished between awareness and consciousness and noted that there can be awareness without consciousness (as in NS) but there cannot be consciousness without awareness. I think he defined consciousness as consciousness OF SOMETHING whereas during NS there is nothing to be conscious of. An analogy might be how people get lost in thought while driving a car on the interstate. For twenty minutes they don't consciously notice the road or anything other than their thoughts, but THIS is intelligent and aware, and it drives the car while the intellect is totally focused on thoughts. For all practical purposes the driver is unconscious of the world during that period of time, and this may be analogous to what happens during sleep. In one case the intellect is focused on thoughts to the exclusion of all else, and during sleep the intellect is either focused on dreams or is unfocused on anything.

The problem is that the truth is undivided, and the intellect is trying to understand and make sense of things that it has distinguished as separate but are not really separate. As many of us have noted, the movie projector, the screen on which the movie is being projected, the images on the screen, and the one who is looking at the images are all part of a unified field of being, so trying to intellectually understand all of the imagined aspects of what's going on is a somewhat fraught endeavor.

Over the years the topic of "existential context" keeps recurring. It's a bit of a heavy-duty concept, intellectually speaking, although it's actually quite simple: are we using "awareness" in the individualized, personal sense, or, instead, "Awareness", as a pointer?

From my experience, if mind is on notice of the limits of intellect, then such an intellectual distinction can lean toward stillness rather than noise. But if the intellect won't bow out, you might as well be talking in Swahili. .. (and I know this isn't something that you didn't already know ...)

[Deleted]

Excerpt From
Be As You Are: The Teachings of Sri Ramana Maharshi

Q: What is this awareness and how can one obtain and cultivate it?

A: You are awareness. Awareness is another name for you. Since you are awareness there is no need to attain or cultivate it. All that you have to do is to give up being aware of other things, that is of the not-Self. If one gives up being aware of them then pure awareness alone remains, and that is the Self.

[inavalan]

Dec 20, 2022 16:47:06 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

Dec 20, 2022 16:01:14 GMT -5 inavalan said:

I don't subscribe to your assumptions.

Sleep isn't unconscious: your "awareness" is focused elsewhere than the physical; your physical-senses are dimmed down, and your inner-senses become primary.

Consciousness "precedes" matter, creates matter; not the other way around. Consciousness is primary.

You seem to call "awareness" the state of "being awake". "Awareness" is a feature of your non-physical identity, and it can be focused in other states than "awake". In that sense it is primordial. The "awake state" isn't primordial. Comparatively, the "dream state" as part of the "sleep state" (as called from the physical ego's perspective) are "more" primordial than the "awake state".

Actually those states aren't really on / off, but they move between the foreground and the background of the "awareness" ' focus.

"Awareness" isn't subject to the body's needs. It may respond to physical-stimuli, when it is mostly focused into other states than "awake", but the body is managed by the "subconscious" (which actually creates the physical-body, as everything else you perceive).

The "body intelligence" is part of the "subconscious".

"Awareness" never sleeps; it changes focus.

This makes sense to me.

Hopefully, these get to my question. I'm asking, when awareness is focused elsewhere, is inavalan ~present~? This is the very point I'm getting to, are you aware of the awareness when it is focused elsewhere (just saying it a little differently). If you-are-not that awareness, your post, the rest of it, is just an abstraction, just theory.

If inavalan never goes unconscious, I'm pretty sure that's pretty rare.

Sorry. I'd like to reply, but I can't understand exactly what you're asking. Please reformulate

What do you mean by "is inavalan ~present~?", or "are you aware of the awareness", or "you-are-not that awareness" ?


If you call "inavalan" my ego, then it is tied to my being awake, which means my awareness is mostly focused into the physical. To me, "awake" isn't the same as "awareness".

Also when we use "you" we have to differentiate between ego, dream-self, subconscious, inner-self, personality, whole-self, entity, ...

"Unconscious" isn't the same thing with "subconscious", or "sleeping", or "dreaming". All represent different things.

I am a non-physical identity that controls its focus of awareness as direction, width, concentration, in the wider-reality, which includes the physical-universe. When I am focused mostly in the physical, it is called "being awake". When I fall asleep, that focus moves from the physical into another domain of consciousness. Each state of consciousness has a system of beliefs. This can be observed for example as differences between one's environment and abilities when awake vs. when dreaming. The states of consciousness are on a continuum, they aren't completely distinct; there are an infinite number of shades between them.

I, as an identity, never sleep: I am always aware and focused somewhere, feeling (at this level of evolvement on the consciousness scale) as a different self, having or not a vague recollection of other selves.

Ego compared to personality is like me-when-I-am-at school, compared to me-in-all-situations. I go to school and I am a student for 6 hours. I go back home and I am a regular kid. I work on my homework and I am a kid-doing-his-homework.

"Ego" is in fact a state of consciousness, not a separate identity: like me when I am in class at school.

Think about yourself awake, yourself in your dream, yourself in a lucid-dream. When you are in any of those situations, you don't think that the others are different identities: you move from one into the other. Normally you are either / or, but with a little training you can straddle two or more states, while mainly focusing in one: e.g. conscious-sleep.

You are always the same identity but function in different frameworks of beliefs. The whole separation and distinction is artificial, and it is a distortion induced by the societal narrative, by mistake, from ignorance and free-will gone wrong. It sprung from the formation of the "intellect", with no intuition to keep it in check.

Looking around you can see intelligent people who go terrible wrong, form absurd convictions based on unchecked reasoning. That is almost always caused during the growing up phase, creating a false sense of intellectual superiority by a lower intellectual environment or through unwise rearing. It can be addressed by changing that belief.

[Deleted]

Dec 20, 2022 20:14:10 GMT -5 @robertc said:

Excerpt From
Be As You Are: The Teachings of Sri Ramana Maharshi

Q: What is this awareness and how can one obtain and cultivate it?

A: You are awareness. Awareness is another name for you. Since you are awareness there is no need to attain or cultivate it. All that you have to do is to give up being aware of other things, that is of the not-Self. If one gives up being aware of them then pure awareness alone remains, and that is the Self.

Awareness is always aware of something, awareness is nothing but the act of being of aware of something, its not an entity. So it can't give up being aware of something.

[Deleted]

Dec 20, 2022 17:21:05 GMT -5 zendancer said:

Dec 20, 2022 16:54:51 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

Thanks, I've been considering this for a couple of weeks. inavalan's post (and my reply) gets more to the heart of my question, which is basically, if awareness supersedes everything, why aren't people, or at least certain people (the SR?), aware during sleep? If awareness never sleeps, why do ~*we*~ sleep (go unconscious)?

I think that awareness is present even in sleep or when the body is unconscious. Niz distinguished between awareness and consciousness and noted that there can be awareness without consciousness (as in NS) but there cannot be consciousness without awareness. I think he defined consciousness as consciousness OF SOMETHING whereas during NS there is nothing to be conscious of. An analogy might be how people get lost in thought while driving a car on the interstate. For twenty minutes they don't consciously notice the road or anything other than their thoughts, but THIS is intelligent and aware, and it drives the car while the intellect is totally focused on thoughts. For all practical purposes the driver is unconscious of the world during that period of time, and this may be analogous to what happens during sleep. In one case the intellect is focused on thoughts to the exclusion of all else, and during sleep the intellect is either focused on dreams or is unfocused on anything.

The problem is that the truth is undivided, and the intellect is trying to understand and make sense of things that it has distinguished as separate but are not really separate. As many of us have noted, the movie projector, the screen on which the movie is being projected, the images on the screen, and the one who is looking at the images are all part of a unified field of being, so trying to intellectually understand all of the imagined aspects of what's going on is a somewhat fraught endeavor.

THIS is not only your subconscious, THIS is total consciousness.

[Deleted]

Dec 20, 2022 18:00:33 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

Dec 20, 2022 17:21:05 GMT -5 zendancer said:

I think that awareness is present even in sleep or when the body is unconscious. Niz distinguished between awareness and consciousness and noted that there can be awareness without consciousness (as in NS) but there cannot be consciousness without awareness. I think he defined consciousness as consciousness OF SOMETHING whereas during NS there is nothing to be conscious of. An analogy might be how people get lost in thought while driving a car on the interstate. For twenty minutes they don't consciously notice the road or anything other than their thoughts, but THIS is intelligent and aware, and it drives the car while the intellect is totally focused on thoughts. For all practical purposes the driver is unconscious of the world during that period of time, and this may be analogous to what happens during sleep. In one case the intellect is focused on thoughts to the exclusion of all else, and during sleep the intellect is either focused on dreams or is unfocused on anything.

The problem is that the truth is undivided, and the intellect is trying to understand and make sense of things that it has distinguished as separate but are not really separate. As many of us have noted, the movie projector, the screen on which the movie is being projected, the images on the screen, and the one who is looking at the images are all part of a unified field of being, so trying to intellectually understand all of the imagined aspects of what's going on is a somewhat fraught endeavor.

This is completely absurd, and I never catch you in saying something absurd. How do most accidents happen? The driver's attention is captured by something other than what's right in front of him or her, and s*** happens. Getting lost in thought means we are literally driving on autopilot. If what you were saying was true then THIS as intelligent and aware would alert the driver to trouble, and *awaken* the driver, like your bladder awakens you (me) in the middle of sleep, so as not to *have an accident*.

When I was teaching each of my kids to drive I told them this is probably the most dangerous thing you will ever do in your life. (At the time I didn't know one would go into the Army, one the Air Force, and one into the Coast Guard). The body can drive on autopilot, when everything is as usual, but if a car drifts into your lane or a deer jumps out in front of you, or any one of 1,000 that could happen, happen, and your attention is not present, bad stuff can happen, people can die, or end up in a wheelchair, or a vegetable.

Yes, this is absolutely analogous to sleep, but if you have a car wreck in a dream, nobody ever dies.

And this, most all my threads and questions come from my experience, I'm not really asking for answers.

Yes, his post is absurd. He is making mistake here, He is assigning subconsciousness to THIS.