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Post by ouroboros on Dec 24, 2022 11:12:04 GMT -5
I don't think the dictionary definition captures what some of us are pointing to with the word "humility." It might apply if one is thinking about oneself in an evaluative sense in relation to others, but what if there is absolutely no thought about oneself while interacting with others? The dictionary would call that selfless. Fwiw, I agree with zd when he says the dictionary definitions don't really capture what's generally intended by humility very well. When I use the phrase it isn't really to signify a low opinion [of myself] but perhaps rather, not an unnecessarily high or inflated one. Looking at the definition of humble, it says; For me, modest is a better word than low. So there we can see it does actually begin to connect with the notion of selflessness.
Here's another; Sure we can debate dictionary definitions but at the end of the day all that really matters is what one intends with their usage of the phrase. So rather than a 'low' opinion, I tend to use humility to imply and even or realistic opinion. Which I suppose in the great scheme of things could also be considered low, because awe has a way of putting us in our place, right. In spiritual circles humility is generally considered as a virtue. For me the issue with painting it as merely a low opinion of oneself is that it comes across as a bit distdainful. |
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Post by zendancer on Dec 24, 2022 11:26:04 GMT -5
So, you're not sure such a state exists. That's totally fair, and honest. But from there you have two options. 1. forget it. or 2. enter the state yourself. This third option of trying to prove that no one else can go into the state, using word definitions and logic – it's just pointless. I think for some people it is not easy to enter this state. There is a 'barrier' of some kind, like a fear of death. It can really rig the mind to avoid the state, so it can be tricky. People think, well I meditated a bunch and it didn't happen, so it's not possible. Edit: I'm skeptical of people who say they entered it easily. There are probably levels to the 'experience', with some going deeper than others. This would mean that some of those " not sure such a state exists" can't ever form the same belief about that state. It can't be said that those who experienced SR are different than those that experienced any other religious enlightenment, including atheists. All are as sure of their Truth. For example, I believe that SR is misinterpreted as the absolute state of consciousness, by people who didn't step further. But, I recognize it as a belief. As you recently mentioned, I think that everybody can and should know only from their inner source of knowledge and guidance. Most people don't do that. You can still read a lot, listen to others, but have to leave all that, and your beliefs and expectations aside during your inner q&a sesions. This can only be stated by someone who has no reference for NS. Anyone who falls into NS will know that that state cannot be misinterpreted as anything other than what it is. FWIW, I knew nothing about NS, and had never even heard the word or any mention of that state when it first happened. I was meditating one night doing an exercise Zen people call "following the breath." As a slight change in approach, I decided to feel the breathing process rather than watch it. Attention became strongly focused on the feeling of air coming into the body and leaving it, and after about ten minutes something unusual began to happen. The body began to feel cool, breathing slowed down until it was virtually undetectable, a skin-surface numbness was felt on the backs of the hands, and that numbness slowly moved up the arms to the shoulders and then the head. After a few moments the sense of being an external observer ceased, and the observer disappeared into the breathing process. At a certain point awareness of the body totally disappeared, and then all thoughts and perceptions stopped. All that remained was pure awareness and nothing else. No content at all. It was an extremely blissful state that lasted about an hour. It was if awareness had been a rock dropped to the bottom of a silent sea where nothing else was present. At some point a single thought appeared, and then two or three thoughts followed, and body consciousness slowly began to return. It felt as if the body had been frozen into a solid block of ice and was starting to thaw out. Every movement felt like it was in slow motion. As the sense of selfhood returned, I was extremely surprised at what had happened, and the thought that occurred was, "What in the world was that?" I had clearly fallen into some sort of strange non-dual state, but I had nothing to compare it to. I didn't know at that time that there was a name for that state. The following night I sat down to meditate, and within only a few minutes the body and mind again fell into that state. The second time it happened I don't know how long it lasted. The next night it happened again and that time it lasted for two or three hours. I don't think I learned the name of that state until a year or so later when I was reading the words of some Zen Master who had spoken about it. On the morning following those three nights, I had a mind-blowing CC during which it became obvious that awareness is primordial and foundational to all else. It was clearly seen and known that if this universe disappeared completely, awareness would remain. Because this same sequence of events has been reported by many Zen practitioners, it would appear that NS probably has some correlation to the occurrence of CC's and various other existential realizations. In the years that followed I experimented with NS, and discovered that it only goes super deep if all thoughts totally cease. If more than one or two thoughts bubble up, the state remains relatively shallow and there remains some vague sense of an observer. When all thoughts cease, body consciousness ceases as well. The bottom line? Anyone who falls into NS will have no doubts about that state of pure awareness. |
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Post by zendancer on Dec 24, 2022 11:28:34 GMT -5
I don't think the dictionary definition captures what some of us are pointing to with the word "humility." It might apply if one is thinking about oneself in an evaluative sense in relation to others, but what if there is absolutely no thought about oneself while interacting with others? On the other hand, reefs' point applies to fake humility, and almost all public humility in spiritual circles has at least some underlying current of hypocrisy. But, of course, that's as all over the map as people are. Merry Christmas everyone! Yes indeed. It reminds me of a famous quote by Frank Lloyd Wright: "Honest arrogance is preferable to hypocritical humility."  Ditto the Merry Christmas! |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2022 11:31:15 GMT -5
On the other hand, reefs' point applies to fake humility, and almost all public humility in spiritual circles has at least some underlying current of hypocrisy. But, of course, that's as all over the map as people are. Merry Christmas everyone! Yes indeed. It reminds me of a famous quote by Frank Lloyd Wright: "Honest arrogance is preferable to hypocritical humility." Ditto the Merry Christmas! Merry Christmas zendancer! இனிய கிறிஸ்மஸ் தின நல்வாழ்த்துக்கள்! |
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Post by zendancer on Dec 24, 2022 11:32:47 GMT -5
The dictionary would call that selfless. Fwiw, I agree with zd when he says the dictionary definitions don't really capture what's generally intended by humility very well. When I use the phrase it isn't really to signify a low opinion [of myself] but perhaps rather, not an unnecessarily high or inflated one. Looking at the definition of humble, it says; For me, modest is a better word than low. So there we can see it does actually begin to connect with the notion of selflessness.
Here's another; Sure we can debate dictionary definitions but at the end of the day all that really matters is what one intends with their usage of the phrase. So rather than a 'low' opinion, I tend to use humility to imply and even or realistic opinion. Which I suppose in the great scheme of things could also be considered low, because awe has a way of putting us in our place, right. In spiritual circles humility is generally considered as a virtue. For me the issue with painting it as merely a low opinion of oneself is that it comes across as a bit distdainful. That's my take almost exactly. |
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Post by zendancer on Dec 24, 2022 11:34:03 GMT -5
Yes indeed. It reminds me of a famous quote by Frank Lloyd Wright: "Honest arrogance is preferable to hypocritical humility." Ditto the Merry Christmas! Merry Christmas zendancer! இனிய கிறிஸ்மஸ் தின நல்வாழ்த்துக்கள்! Same to you and all the other posters on the forum! Is that Tamil? The script is beautiful. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2022 11:38:49 GMT -5
Merry Christmas zendancer! இனிய கிறிஸ்மஸ் தின நல்வாழ்த்துக்கள்! Same to you and all the other posters on the forum! Is that Tamil? The script is beautiful. Thanks. Yes, that's Tamil language! Thanks a lot! |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2022 11:43:49 GMT -5
Yes indeed. It reminds me of a famous quote by Frank Lloyd Wright: "Honest arrogance is preferable to hypocritical humility." Ditto the Merry Christmas! Merry Christmas zendancer! இனிய கிறிஸ்மஸ் தின நல்வாழ்த்துக்கள்! I was about to say, "what beautiful script", but I see ZD beat me to it. For fun, here are few others that don't use Latin letters. Most I don't know. I just put Merry Christmas into Google Translate... Georgian: Შობას გილოცავთ Korean: 메리 크리스마스 Chinese: 圣诞节快乐 (simplified) Persian: کریسمس مبارک Lao: ສຸກສັນວັນຄຣິສມາດ |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2022 11:50:29 GMT -5
Merry Christmas zendancer! இனிய கிறிஸ்மஸ் தின நல்வாழ்த்துக்கள்! I was about to say, "what beautiful script", but I see ZD beat me to it. For fun, here are few others that don't use Latin letters. Most I don't know. I just put Merry Christmas into Google Translate... Georgian: Შობას გილოცავთ Korean: 메리 크리스마스 Chinese: 圣诞节快乐 (simplified) Persian: کریسمس مبارک Lao: ສຸກສັນວັນຄຣິສມາດ Thank you so much! Merry Christmas to you! Nice to see those other languages as well. |
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Post by Reefs on Dec 24, 2022 11:56:56 GMT -5
The dictionary would call that selfless. Fwiw, I agree with zd when he says the dictionary definitions don't really capture what's generally intended by humility very well. When I use the phrase it isn't really to signify a low opinion [of myself] but perhaps rather, not an unnecessarily high or inflated one. Looking at the definition of humble, it says; For me, modest is a better word than low. So there we can see it does actually begin to connect with the notion of selflessness.
Here's another; Sure we can debate dictionary definitions but at the end of the day all that really matters is what one intends with their usage of the phrase. So rather than a 'low' opinion, I tend to use humility to imply and even or realistic opinion. Which I suppose in the great scheme of things could also be considered low, because awe has a way of putting us in our place, right. In spiritual circles humility is generally considered as a virtue. For me the issue with painting it as merely a low opinion of oneself is that it comes across as a bit distdainful. FWIW, this was only in reply to SDP who made an assertion that was clearly wrong. My whole point is, then why not use selfless instead? Why go thru all these mental contortions to make the word humility convey something that it actually doesn't? ETA: Merry Christmas to all! |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2022 13:31:57 GMT -5
It's 12'o clock now! Merry Christmas to all my friends here !
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Post by ouroboros on Dec 24, 2022 13:41:19 GMT -5
Fwiw, I agree with zd when he says the dictionary definitions don't really capture what's generally intended by humility very well. When I use the phrase it isn't really to signify a low opinion [of myself] but perhaps rather, not an unnecessarily high or inflated one. Looking at the definition of humble, it says; For me, modest is a better word than low. So there we can see it does actually begin to connect with the notion of selflessness.
Here's another; Sure we can debate dictionary definitions but at the end of the day all that really matters is what one intends with their usage of the phrase. So rather than a 'low' opinion, I tend to use humility to imply and even or realistic opinion. Which I suppose in the great scheme of things could also be considered low, because awe has a way of putting us in our place, right. In spiritual circles humility is generally considered as a virtue. For me the issue with painting it as merely a low opinion of oneself is that it comes across as a bit distdainful. FWIW, this was only in reply to SDP who made an assertion that was clearly wrong. My whole point is, then why not use selfless instead? Why go thru all these mental contortions to make the word humility convey something that it actually doesn't? ETA: Merry Christmas to all! Oh, I didn't notice how the conversation started. But humility is a different flavour from selflessness really, it's just that they are connected. For example, Buddhist practitioners believe that only a humble mind can readily recognize its own defilements of craving, aversion, and ignorance. Whereas, depending on context, selflessness would be more about either anatta, or being concerned more with the needs and wishes of others than with one's own, i.e. unselfish. (Although I understand the latter is contentious, and can lead to halo polishing). I don't really see that portraying humility as more than merely a low opinion of oneself involves much if anything in the way of contortion. In fact, I see the 'low' in the definitions as largely being relative to the 'unnecessarily high or inflated' that I talked about before. It's just a matter of interpretation. edit. As an aside, to my mind humility ties in with what it means to say, 'the meek shall inherit the earth'. |
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Post by someNOTHING! on Dec 24, 2022 14:12:05 GMT -5
Awareness, the Absolute, Reality, God, whatever name you use for what we are ultimately is just a name. It can never be an object. It cannot be known the way we know objects in time and space. This is why sages say you can't "know" God, you can only BE God. Now that is a problematic statement and I hate to use it because it can be fill the ego with enough arrogance and bluster to float itself into the stratosphere and go off strutting and claiming to be master of the universe. THIS cannot be known. This is why we say it is beyond mind or beyond the intellect. THIS can be experienced, perhaps a better word for it is "lived," in other words, you can BE God. In fact, you've never not been God, the Absolute, pure Awareness, THIS. You've deluded yourself to think that you are not. This is why enlightenment is not an aggrandizement, but rather profoundly humbling. Why folks say nothing is gained, but ourselves, our separate self, is lost. Why jnani's dedicate themselves to so-called others because there are no other's. There is only Self. Nice to read more from underneath your hood, Zaz. Good stuff. |
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Post by someNOTHING! on Dec 24, 2022 14:24:03 GMT -5
It's 12'o clock now! Merry Christmas to all my friends here ! Yes, கிறிஸ்துமஸ் வாழ்த்துக்கள் and may all who dare realize a virgin rebirth.  |
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Post by someNOTHING! on Dec 24, 2022 14:28:20 GMT -5
On the other hand, reefs' point applies to fake humility, and almost all public humility in spiritual circles has at least some underlying current of hypocrisy. But, of course, that's as all over the map as people are. Merry Christmas everyone! Yes indeed. It reminds me of a famous quote by Frank Lloyd Wright: "Honest arrogance is preferable to hypocritical humility." Ditto the Merry Christmas! I like dat quote. ✅ Reminds me a little of some of Lao Tzu's take on the consensus paradigm's virtue. |
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