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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 24, 2022 14:43:49 GMT -5
FWIW, this was only in reply to SDP who made an assertion that was clearly wrong. My whole point is, then why not use selfless instead? Why go thru all these mental contortions to make the word humility convey something that it actually doesn't? ETA: Merry Christmas to all! Oh, I didn't notice how the conversation started. But humility is a different flavour from selflessness really, it's just that they are connected. For example, Buddhist practitioners believe that only a humble mind can readily recognize its own defilements of craving, aversion, and ignorance. Whereas, depending on context, selflessness would be more about either anatta, or being concerned more with the needs and wishes of others than with one's own, i.e. unselfish. (Although I understand the latter is contentious, and can lead to halo polishing). I don't really see that portraying humility as more than merely a low opinion of oneself involves much if anything in the way of contortion. In fact, I see the 'low' in the definitions as largely being relative to the 'unnecessarily high or inflated' that I talked about before. It's just a matter of interpretation. I'm not going through all the gymnastics. Humility cannot be in any way a reference of self, to self, so it cannot mean a low opinion of oneself. If one refers to oneself as humble, then one isn't, period, just period. Really, if one even thinks of oneself as humble, you're not. Humility is the chief virtue. (I have never heard humility called a low opinion of oneself, that's what I objected to). Humility is always knowing there is something greater than oneself. "Life is a long lesson in humility." - James M. Barrie "Humility is the foundation of all the other virtues hence, in the soul in which this virtue does not exist there cannot be any other virtue except in mere appearance." - Saint Augustine More Hope Quotes: "Humility is the solid foundation of all virtues." - Confucius "We come nearest to the great when we are great in humility." - Rabindranath Tagore "True humility is intelligent self respect which keeps us from thinking too highly or too meanly of ourselves. It makes us modest by reminding us how far we have come short of what we can be." - Ralph W. Sockman "Great leaders don't need to act tough. Their confidence and humility serve to underscore their toughness." - Simon Sinek "By bringing nature into our lives, we invite humility." - Richard Louv |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 24, 2022 14:54:17 GMT -5
...........bump............. Humility means having a low view or opinion of oneself. If annihilation of ego is what you are talking about, then neither pride nor humility could apply. I don't understand why people get so hung up on ego and are yearning for its annihilation. The ego doesn't have to be annihilated. It just has to be seen for what it is. The real has to be seen as real and the false as false. Then get on with your life. Who wants to see ego annihilated as the final solution anyway? I'd say it's the spiritual ego. Humility absolutely does not mean this. TBC |
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Post by ouroboros on Dec 24, 2022 14:54:47 GMT -5
Oh, I didn't notice how the conversation started. But humility is a different flavour from selflessness really, it's just that they are connected. For example, Buddhist practitioners believe that only a humble mind can readily recognize its own defilements of craving, aversion, and ignorance. Whereas, depending on context, selflessness would be more about either anatta, or being concerned more with the needs and wishes of others than with one's own, i.e. unselfish. (Although I understand the latter is contentious, and can lead to halo polishing). I don't really see that portraying humility as more than merely a low opinion of oneself involves much if anything in the way of contortion. In fact, I see the 'low' in the definitions as largely being relative to the 'unnecessarily high or inflated' that I talked about before. It's just a matter of interpretation. I'm not going through all the gymnastics. Humility cannot be in any way a reference of self, to self, so it cannot mean a low opinion of oneself. If one refers to oneself as humble, then one isn't, period, just period. Really, if one even thinks of oneself as humble, you're not. Humility is the chief virtue. (I have never heard humility called a low opinion of oneself, that's what I objected to). Humility is always knowing there is something greater than oneself. "Life is a long lesson in humility." - James M. Barrie "Humility is the foundation of all the other virtues hence, in the soul in which this virtue does not exist there cannot be any other virtue except in mere appearance." - Saint Augustine More Hope Quotes: "Humility is the solid foundation of all virtues." - Confucius "We come nearest to the great when we are great in humility." - Rabindranath Tagore "True humility is intelligent self respect which keeps us from thinking too highly or too meanly of ourselves. It makes us modest by reminding us how far we have come short of what we can be." - Ralph W. Sockman "Great leaders don't need to act tough. Their confidence and humility serve to underscore their toughness." - Simon Sinek "By bringing nature into our lives, we invite humility." - Richard Louv I just edited my post with another quote actually ... "Blessed are the Meek, for They Will Inherit the Earth".
(I think it was Matthew's account, so it should pass Gopals scrutiny).
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 24, 2022 15:06:03 GMT -5
I'm not going through all the gymnastics. Humility cannot be in any way a reference of self, to self, so it cannot mean a low opinion of oneself. If one refers to oneself as humble, then one isn't, period, just period. Really, if one even thinks of oneself as humble, you're not. Humility is the chief virtue. (I have never heard humility called a low opinion of oneself, that's what I objected to). Humility is always knowing there is something greater than oneself. "Life is a long lesson in humility." - James M. Barrie "Humility is the foundation of all the other virtues hence, in the soul in which this virtue does not exist there cannot be any other virtue except in mere appearance." - Saint Augustine More Hope Quotes: "Humility is the solid foundation of all virtues." - Confucius "We come nearest to the great when we are great in humility." - Rabindranath Tagore "True humility is intelligent self respect which keeps us from thinking too highly or too meanly of ourselves. It makes us modest by reminding us how far we have come short of what we can be." - Ralph W. Sockman "Great leaders don't need to act tough. Their confidence and humility serve to underscore their toughness." - Simon Sinek "By bringing nature into our lives, we invite humility." - Richard Louv I just edited my post with another quote actually ... "Blessed are the Meek, for They Will Inherit the Earth".
(I think it was Matthew's account, so it should pass Gopals scrutiny).
Yes. The Bible tells us in verse 3 that Moses was the meekest man on earth. A meek man leading a nation. I think we have to do a little research on that word ‘anaw. Most our translations render this as very meek or very humble. The very is put there because the word meek is repeated two times and is followed by the word mo’ed meaning very. In the Semitic languages when a word is repeated it is to show emphasis. This word ‘anaw has other meanings. It is a Canaanite word loan word meaning occupation, or task. It means to be so focused on your task that you really don’t care what people say about you or what happens to you. This emphasis on the word meek indicates not a passive person but one who is so focused that he did not care about the criticism coming from Aaron and Miriam. But God did care because this criticism which had nothing to do with Moses marrying a Cushite woman. In fact when God took all three aside he said nary a word about the poor woman. What he did address however, was the jealousy that Aaron and Miriam felt over Moses being the top dog who hears directly from God. Their pride was hurt. |
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Post by inavalan on Dec 24, 2022 16:46:23 GMT -5
That analogy suggests that there is a possibility that you can safely be sure that that is a rope and not a snake, before it is too late. Things like wishful thinking, nearsightedness, others' opinions, might affect your perceptions. Humility would make you still be cautious about what you've "seen". A related example of a few minutes ago. My wife, while looking at her laptop, told me that she can't understand why the Beatles' "Eleanor Rigby" was playing in her mind. She isn't particularly a fan of that song. A few feet in front of her, the tv is on, stopped on one of those menus that show you stills from various suggested movies: one bigger rectangle, then a string of 10 smaller pictures, and another one of maybe 15 even smaller ones. A few minutes later, when she started to browse those still pictures, she noticed that the rightmost one on the lowest line, in very small size, read: "Eleanor Rigby". She said: "but I wasn't looking there!". The rope/snake is a metaphor for a non-relative realization. It's not about perception, as in any sort of perceptual illusion. Rather, it's about a perspective that suffuses all perception that follows. I believe there's no such thing. |
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Post by inavalan on Dec 24, 2022 16:53:06 GMT -5
There is also the possibility that that state is misinterpreted by some people, under the influence of what they read or heard from others, or in another way. This would mean that some of those " not sure such a state exists" can't ever form the same belief about that state. It can't be said that those who experienced SR are different than those that experienced any other religious enlightenment, including atheists. All are as sure of their Truth. For example, I believe that SR is misinterpreted as the absolute state of consciousness, by people who didn't step further. But, I recognize it as a belief. As you recently mentioned, I think that everybody can and should know only from their inner source of knowledge and guidance. Most people don't do that. You can still read a lot, listen to others, but have to leave all that, and your beliefs and expectations aside during your inner q&a sesions. This can only be stated by someone who has no reference for NS. ... When I read those words, I stop reading further. You keep repeating them ...  |
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Post by inavalan on Dec 24, 2022 16:57:02 GMT -5
There is also the possibility that that state is misinterpreted by some people, under the influence of what they read or heard from others, or in another way. This would mean that some of those " not sure such a state exists" can't ever form the same belief about that state. It can't be said that those who experienced SR are different than those that experienced any other religious enlightenment, including atheists. All are as sure of their Truth. For example, I believe that SR is misinterpreted as the absolute state of consciousness, by people who didn't step further. But, I recognize it as a belief. As you recently mentioned, I think that everybody can and should know only from their inner source of knowledge and guidance. Most people don't do that. You can still read a lot, listen to others, but have to leave all that, and your beliefs and expectations aside during your inner q&a sesions. ... The bottom line? Anyone who falls into NS will have no doubts about that state of pure awareness. I skipped to your last sentence ... A state of pure awareness isn't a goal for me. I experienced it, and moved past it. You don't even need to go through it. Thanks for taking the time to reply. |
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Post by inavalan on Dec 24, 2022 17:17:02 GMT -5
Yes indeed. It reminds me of a famous quote by Frank Lloyd Wright: " Honest arrogance is preferable to hypocritical humility."  Ditto the Merry Christmas! I like dat quote. ✅ Reminds me a little of some of Lao Tzu's take on the consensus paradigm's virtue. I understand why people would say that, but it is detrimental to think that way. It is the difference between "wanting to be healthy", and "accepting to be sick and hoping for less pain". You can't get rid of pain if you want "less pain". You can't get rid of pain if you want "no pain". Doing so you reinforce the belief that manifested as that pain. This isn't about "affirmations". |
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Post by inavalan on Dec 24, 2022 17:24:02 GMT -5
I just edited my post with another quote actually ... "Blessed are the Meek, for They Will Inherit the Earth".
(I think it was Matthew's account, so it should pass Gopals scrutiny).
Yes. The Bible tells us in verse 3 that Moses was the meekest man on earth. A meek man leading a nation. I think we have to do a little research on that word ‘anaw. Most our translations render this as very meek or very humble. The very is put there because the word meek is repeated two times and is followed by the word mo’ed meaning very. In the Semitic languages when a word is repeated it is to show emphasis. This word ‘anaw has other meanings. It is a Canaanite word loan word meaning occupation, or task. It means to be so focused on your task that you really don’t care what people say about you or what happens to you. This emphasis on the word meek indicates not a passive person but one who is so focused that he did not care about the criticism coming from Aaron and Miriam. But God did care because this criticism which had nothing to do with Moses marrying a Cushite woman. In fact when God took all three aside he said nary a word about the poor woman. What he did address however, was the jealousy that Aaron and Miriam felt over Moses being the top dog who hears directly from God. Their pride was hurt. I agree that it is better to understand the original meaning, vs. translations and interpretations. On the other hand, I believe that it matters what you intuitively get from that, and not what the original author meant. |
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Post by inavalan on Dec 24, 2022 17:30:37 GMT -5
I'm not going through all the gymnastics. Humility cannot be in any way a reference of self, to self, so it cannot mean a low opinion of oneself. If one refers to oneself as humble, then one isn't, period, just period. Really, if one even thinks of oneself as humble, you're not. Humility is the chief virtue. (I have never heard humility called a low opinion of oneself, that's what I objected to). Humility is always knowing there is something greater than oneself. "Life is a long lesson in humility." - James M. Barrie "Humility is the foundation of all the other virtues hence, in the soul in which this virtue does not exist there cannot be any other virtue except in mere appearance." - Saint Augustine More Hope Quotes: "Humility is the solid foundation of all virtues." - Confucius "We come nearest to the great when we are great in humility." - Rabindranath Tagore "True humility is intelligent self respect which keeps us from thinking too highly or too meanly of ourselves. It makes us modest by reminding us how far we have come short of what we can be." - Ralph W. Sockman "Great leaders don't need to act tough. Their confidence and humility serve to underscore their toughness." - Simon Sinek "By bringing nature into our lives, we invite humility." - Richard Louv I just edited my post with another quote actually ... "Blessed are the Meek, for They Will Inherit the Earth".
(I think it was Matthew's account, so it should pass Gopals scrutiny).
It matters how you interpret it, and what you do with that. What may be appropriate for you, may not be for another. Acknowledging this to yourself is an example of: "humility". |
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Post by Reefs on Dec 24, 2022 22:25:41 GMT -5
FWIW, this was only in reply to SDP who made an assertion that was clearly wrong. My whole point is, then why not use selfless instead? Why go thru all these mental contortions to make the word humility convey something that it actually doesn't? ETA: Merry Christmas to all! Oh, I didn't notice how the conversation started. But humility is a different flavour from selflessness really, it's just that they are connected. For example, Buddhist practitioners believe that only a humble mind can readily recognize its own defilements of craving, aversion, and ignorance. Whereas, depending on context, selflessness would be more about either anatta, or being concerned more with the needs and wishes of others than with one's own, i.e. unselfish. (Although I understand the latter is contentious, and can lead to halo polishing). I don't really see that portraying humility as more than merely a low opinion of oneself involves much if anything in the way of contortion. In fact, I see the 'low' in the definitions as largely being relative to the 'unnecessarily high or inflated' that I talked about before. It's just a matter of interpretation. edit. As an aside, to my mind humility ties in with what it means to say, 'the meek shall inherit the earth'. Yeah, we went far into the weeds. This was actually about having to be God in order to realize God. But in that context humility as well as pride are the wrong words and just two side of the same coin. Those are SVP/ego categories. That was my original point. The other point was about precision of language. Which I think is very important. A lot of misunderstandings and food fights here are due to significant and sometimes just slight variations in word usage and definitions. So it's worth working out those differences. I do work a lot with dictionaries every day. And I am sometimes surprised at how much definitions in various dictionaries of one and the same word can differ. As you pointed out, words sometimes have different flavors and connotations. And not all dictionaries list all of those. I sometimes have to browse thru at least a dozen dictionaries to find the meaning that I am looking for, the one meaning or context that suits my purpose. Very often you will see a word defined by just referring to it as a synonym for another well-defined and more common word, like humility defined as a synonym for humbleness or meekness. The low quality dictionaries do this a lot. And for everyday usage that is usually enough and works just fine. But if you really need precision in terms of meaning and context, that doesn't work. It also helps to look at etymology. Because words can change significantly in meaning over time. If you look at the original meanings of humility, then you will always see it associated with lowliness in various contexts. And that hasn't really changed to this day, even though its meaning has become broader and less negative. I work a lot with synonyms and that's absolutely fascinating, the different associations you can find and the different directions and especially connections you can make. It takes some skill though and some really good dictionaries because you sometimes can make a turn into a direction that the original definitions don't actually support and then you are in fantasy land. Another interesting thing that can happen when you work a lot with dictionaries is that sometimes you'll notice that you have been using some words or phrases the wrong way. And that can be a humbling, even humiliating experience. For those interested, here's a website that lists some really good online dictionaries. Just type in the word you want to look up in the search field and then click on the dictionaries of your choice, open it in a new tab and then compare the various definitions: www.lexilogos.com/english/dictionary.htmBottom line, you can use whatever word with whatever definition you want as long as it suits your purpose, you can even make up new definitions for commonly used words or make up your own words as we sometimes do here, creating our own specialized vocabulary. That's how language evolves and how slang works. But if you do, you have to be aware that when people encounter these words for the first time, they will go with the common dictionary definitions and likely won't understand what you are saying. So giving humility that kind of selfless flavor as people here are suggesting is possible, but don't expect everyone to go along with it, especially when the dictionaries don't really agree with that definition and/or when there are other words in the dictionary already that express the meaning you want to convey equally well. So if you guys want humility to be understood in the sense of selflessness, that's fine. I'll keep that in mind next time I see you using that word. But if the goal is clear communication, then using selflessness would be the better choice than reinventing and redefining the word humility. Just saying. |
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Post by Reefs on Dec 24, 2022 22:33:01 GMT -5
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Post by Reefs on Dec 24, 2022 22:53:20 GMT -5
Oh, I didn't notice how the conversation started. But humility is a different flavour from selflessness really, it's just that they are connected. For example, Buddhist practitioners believe that only a humble mind can readily recognize its own defilements of craving, aversion, and ignorance. Whereas, depending on context, selflessness would be more about either anatta, or being concerned more with the needs and wishes of others than with one's own, i.e. unselfish. (Although I understand the latter is contentious, and can lead to halo polishing). I don't really see that portraying humility as more than merely a low opinion of oneself involves much if anything in the way of contortion. In fact, I see the 'low' in the definitions as largely being relative to the 'unnecessarily high or inflated' that I talked about before. It's just a matter of interpretation. I'm not going through all the gymnastics. Humility cannot be in any way a reference of self, to self, so it cannot mean a low opinion of oneself. If one refers to oneself as humble, then one isn't, period, just period. Really, if one even thinks of oneself as humble, you're not. Humility is the chief virtue. (I have never heard humility called a low opinion of oneself, that's what I objected to). Humility is always knowing there is something greater than oneself. "Life is a long lesson in humility." - James M. Barrie "Humility is the foundation of all the other virtues hence, in the soul in which this virtue does not exist there cannot be any other virtue except in mere appearance." - Saint Augustine More Hope Quotes: "Humility is the solid foundation of all virtues." - Confucius "We come nearest to the great when we are great in humility." - Rabindranath Tagore "True humility is intelligent self respect which keeps us from thinking too highly or too meanly of ourselves. It makes us modest by reminding us how far we have come short of what we can be." - Ralph W. Sockman "Great leaders don't need to act tough. Their confidence and humility serve to underscore their toughness." - Simon Sinek "By bringing nature into our lives, we invite humility." - Richard Louv You keep barking up the wrong tree. The context was being God in order to realize God. That's the impersonal context. And in that context, humility or virtue have no place. This is the context of omnipresence, omniscience and omnipotence. Remember what Bodhidharma said: vast emptiness, not holiness. So there's no point in quoting these spiritual behaviorists, because their perspective is the personal context. There is only what you are. |
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Post by inavalan on Dec 25, 2022 0:37:48 GMT -5
... For those interested, here's a website that lists some really good online dictionaries. Just type in the word you want to look up in the search field and then click on the dictionaries of your choice, open it in a new tab and then compare the various definitions: www.lexilogos.com/english/dictionary.htm... Thanks for that link! |
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Post by inavalan on Dec 25, 2022 2:22:37 GMT -5
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