Going against the flow

[inavalan]

Apr 23, 2023 5:12:14 GMT -5 tenka said:

Apr 23, 2023 4:56:19 GMT -5 andrew said:

I also see value, but for clarity, could you explain the value in having the comparison? Is there practical value...experiential value...?

It brings to the table an understanding of what you are that is mindful and what isn't . Just the same as knowing that what you are isn't separate from anything . What does it do for anyone in practical terms, perhaps not a lot . It won't stop the cost of living increasing or the clouds forming above .

For myself I know that when there is self awareness present, there has to be an environment that sustains that . There has to be because there is what you are beyond that, which doesn't sustain a thought of that or anything else .

When one's understanding expands in reflection of what you are I see value in that . Of course there is some value in being ignorant also .. 

I was just asking why one wouldn't see any value in having a broader understanding that pertains to what you are ..

This is why these discussions lead nowhere. Because people understand whatever they can, and believe to be true.

Our exchange wasn't about "a broader understanding that pertains to what you are", but about your opinion that what you are doing leads to "a broader understanding that pertains to what you are", opinion that I contest.

From your posts, and from the perspective of my beliefs, your "understanding that pertains to what you are" is way off.

I also stated, and repeat it, that I don't intend to convince you of anything.

I just interjected that as you have your perspective, everybody has their own, and you have no way to prove that yours is right. You seem to believe that you know and experienced things that are absolutely right / real / ... I'm saying that you're wrong about that.

[andrew]

Apr 23, 2023 13:42:44 GMT -5 tenka said:

Apr 23, 2023 6:04:48 GMT -5 andrew said:

I get you, I'm asking because it's what I might want to know if I didn't already get you.

Would you say that knowing the comparison has changed your experience in some regard? Or perhaps the way that you experience?

It really is difficult to say in a way . I mean, if you realise that there is life after physical death and a loved one passes over, then you still grieve for them even though you know that they haven't died so to speak . You can't however take back what one has realised . So there is an accumulation of knowings and realisations that are integrated into your perception of life itself . Life itself in reflection of what you are .

Knowing that all is what you are and what constitutes a mindful self and not are integrated into oneself . Does one still chop wood thereafter, of course, but the underlying knowings has a part to play in ones overall understandings .

Like said, on a practical level, knowing what constitutes a mindful self and what doesn't won't change normal life and day to day activities, it's more to do with an understanding of what you are ..

Knowing that everything is what you are has more of an impact I would say in regards to deliberately causing harm to others for example, but it doesn't mean one wouldn't defend themselves if need be .

There are so many scenarios at play here I would say .

I mean you hear of all these masters that seemingly know all that is and write books on it all, but still behave in a similar fashion at times prior to all those realisations .

I appreciate the question, as I had to try and put it into words which was a journey for me in itself .

Yes, that's a good example of what I was asking, thanks. It indicates that there's something about the way you experience individuals, or relationships (or just life in general) that has changed, but as I asked it, I was aware that it was a bit of tricky one to answer, glad you appreciated it

[andrew]

Apr 23, 2023 8:03:32 GMT -5 zendancer said:

Apr 23, 2023 5:12:14 GMT -5 tenka said:

It brings to the table an understanding of what you are that is mindful and what isn't . Just the same as knowing that what you are isn't separate from anything . What does it do for anyone in practical terms, perhaps not a lot . It won't stop the cost of living increasing or the clouds forming above .

For myself I know that when there is self awareness present, there has to be an environment that sustains that . There has to be because there is what you are beyond that, which doesn't sustain a thought of that or anything else .

When one's understanding expands in reflection of what you are I see value in that . Of course there is some value in being ignorant also .. 

I was just asking why one wouldn't see any value in having a broader understanding that pertains to what you are ..

From my POV the value of understanding what you are is incalculable because it eradicates the idea of separation and eliminates the usual kinds of self-centered thinking. When there is sufficiently deep insight into what we are, one feels one-with whatever is happening because one understands that what one IS IS whatever is happening. It's like coming home and relaxing in a comfortable recliner called "Source." This results in a feeling of freedom, peace, effortlessness, and equanimity because all of the imagined false idols (fame, wealth, or attainment of any kind for a false self) are no longer seen as goals to be chased after. What could be better than discovering what we are, knowing what we are, and being what we are?

Also a good answer to the question I asked, thanks. To be clear, I don't mean 'good' in the sense that I believe you gave a 'right' answer, but good in the sense that you articulated the value of the comparison clearly to me.

[tenka]

Apr 23, 2023 14:56:52 GMT -5 zendancer said:

Apr 23, 2023 14:02:45 GMT -5 tenka said:

As there is only what you are then the answer is that . It has to be . Within Individual experience, that what you are is localised to that point of perception . That point of perception that can think . That point of perception that can drive or ride a bike or surf the waves like the princess .

Andy and I have spoken about percentages of being focused on something, like driving, but the quandary is that when there has seemingly been an absence of awareness when driving the car it's because there was no immediate memory of it .

It doesn't mean to say that on a different level there was . It is like waking up after a nights sleep believing that one has been absent of awareness for 8 hrs . It's simply not true . One is always consciously aware and that includes driving a car not remembering doing that .

When I have that experience of not knowing how I drove 10 miles, I don't recall having a memory of being somewhere else or having lots of thoughts running through my mind, enough so to totally blank out my perception of the road .

Andy and I were talking about percentages, so that would mean that one was 100% thinking of what one was going to eat for dinner and have no awareness of anything else .

Yes, no conscious awareness. I ascribe the ability to safely drive while thinking about something else to be a function of subconscious mental processing. What we are can obviously do a million different things at the same time, and to know that that's the case one only has to consider the millions, billions, or trillions of things that are happening each moment that sustain life in the form of a single human being. I'm sure that everyone has had occasions when they were driving along thinking about some issue and suddenly what we are brought attention back to conscious awareness of what was happening due to a potentially dangerous situation. What we are is clearly aware of everything happening that might result in a vehicle collision even when the intellect is ruminating about something one is planning for the future. That's what brings back conscious attention to the highway and what the cars and trucks are doing around us.

Well this is the sticky point, because most would feel there was no conscious awareness had during sleep time . There always is .

Not remembering doesn't equate to no conscious awareness had . It just one doesn't remember being conscious lol .

When one is in a different zone so to speak then I would say one's awareness expands somewhat and one can do a manner of all things at the same time .

There has probably been many peeps not paying attention to the road ahead and hit someone from behind .

So it really does depend on the actual state of awareness that one enters.

That state of awareness can activate many abilities I would say .

[tenka]

Apr 23, 2023 15:25:44 GMT -5 inavalan said:

Apr 23, 2023 5:12:14 GMT -5 tenka said:

It brings to the table an understanding of what you are that is mindful and what isn't . Just the same as knowing that what you are isn't separate from anything . What does it do for anyone in practical terms, perhaps not a lot . It won't stop the cost of living increasing or the clouds forming above .

For myself I know that when there is self awareness present, there has to be an environment that sustains that . There has to be because there is what you are beyond that, which doesn't sustain a thought of that or anything else .

When one's understanding expands in reflection of what you are I see value in that . Of course there is some value in being ignorant also .. 

I was just asking why one wouldn't see any value in having a broader understanding that pertains to what you are ..

This is why these discussions lead nowhere. Because people understand whatever they can, and believe to be true.

Our exchange wasn't about "a broader understanding that pertains to what you are", but about your opinion that what you are doing leads to "a broader understanding that pertains to what you are", opinion that I contest.

From your posts, and from the perspective of my beliefs, your "understanding that pertains to what you are" is way off.

I also stated, and repeat it, that I don't intend to convince you of anything.

I just interjected that as you have your perspective, everybody has their own, and you have no way to prove that yours is right. You seem to believe that you know and experienced things that are absolutely right / real / ... I'm saying that you're wrong about that.

You're saying I am wrong and yet you say all there is, is a subjective opinion . 

Well that's just you're subjective opinion based upon no experience of what I'm talking about .

How could I prove something to you that you haven't experienced for yourself?

I have told you I don't talk in absolute Truths . I haven't been trying to prove anything to you .

I spoke about what certain understandings bring to the table .

I have asked you do you see any value in having such understandings .

You said it means nothing to you .

It kinda emphasises the point I am making .

[tenka]

Apr 23, 2023 15:13:20 GMT -5 inavalan said:

Apr 23, 2023 4:57:09 GMT -5 tenka said:

.. well you said to me about transcending mind that is my opinion, and you doubt its validity . You believe many opinions are incorrect, so what would constitute a correct opinion bearing in mind everything is based upon a subjective experience?

This is why I asked you about the validity of experiencing logging on to the forums or going to the fridge for a beer.

So what constitutes a true - real - correct opinion?

What's it based on?

This discussion took a turn that leads nowhere. Sorry. We won't get anywhere.

I believe that there is no "true - real - correct opinion". Everything is subjective and to some degree distorted, including all experiences.

Surely I have opinions / beliefs / views, with various degrees of confidence that they're correct, and act on them, but that doesn't mean that I consider them infallible.

I don't "blindly" trust any of my experiences, and even less those of others,no matter who they are / were.

I just play the game with what I have.

Why would you have more confidence in one experience over another? That doesn't reflect that all experiences are distorted to some degree . What makes one experience more distorted than another .

You would have to have a foundational belief in effect otherwise you wouldn't be able to discern one degree of distortion over another .

Do you understand that your foundation has to reflect what you believe .

If you can't believe in your foundation then what you believe is more correct can't be based upon that .

Peeps don't seem to understand how their foundation reflects everything .

[inavalan]

Apr 26, 2023 14:50:40 GMT -5 tenka said:

Apr 23, 2023 15:13:20 GMT -5 inavalan said:

This discussion took a turn that leads nowhere. Sorry. We won't get anywhere.

I believe that there is no "true - real - correct opinion". Everything is subjective and to some degree distorted, including all experiences.

Surely I have opinions / beliefs / views, with various degrees of confidence that they're correct, and act on them, but that doesn't mean that I consider them infallible.

I don't "blindly" trust any of my experiences, and even less those of others,no matter who they are / were.

I just play the game with what I have.

Why would you have more confidence in one experience over another? That doesn't reflect that all experiences are distorted to some degree . What makes one experience more distorted than another .

You would have to have a foundational belief in effect otherwise you wouldn't be able to discern one degree of distortion over another .

Do you understand that your foundation has to reflect what you believe .

If you can't believe in your foundation then what you believe is more correct can't be based upon that .

Peeps don't seem to understand how their foundation reflects everything .

This leads nowhere. Thanks for the chat.

[tenka]

Apr 26, 2023 15:05:04 GMT -5 inavalan said:

Apr 26, 2023 14:50:40 GMT -5 tenka said:

Why would you have more confidence in one experience over another? That doesn't reflect that all experiences are distorted to some degree . What makes one experience more distorted than another .

You would have to have a foundational belief in effect otherwise you wouldn't be able to discern one degree of distortion over another .

Do you understand that your foundation has to reflect what you believe .

If you can't believe in your foundation then what you believe is more correct can't be based upon that .

Peeps don't seem to understand how their foundation reflects everything .

This leads nowhere. Thanks for the chat.

Well it does lead somewhere, it's just that you are not interested in looking at how foundations work .

The very same foundations that are at the root of what you believe and what you don't .

If you understood this, then you wouldn't be saying what you are saying, but that's up to you .

It's easy to point the finger at someone and say they are wrong, but a little harder to look at oneself in reflection of what is countered .

[inavalan]

Apr 28, 2023 14:01:31 GMT -5 tenka said:

Apr 26, 2023 15:05:04 GMT -5 inavalan said:

This leads nowhere. Thanks for the chat.

Well it does lead somewhere, it's just that you are not interested in looking at how foundations work .

The very same foundations that are at the root of what you believe and what you don't .

If you understood this, then you wouldn't be saying what you are saying, but that's up to you .

It's easy to point the finger at someone and say they are wrong, but a little harder to look at oneself in reflection of what is countered .

My position is that what we discuss here can't be argued. You present your view, I present mine. We may ask and answer honest questions, understand or not the other's view, and that's about it.

My view, and probably yours too, isn't based on a rationalization of some data, but on my inner experiences. Hence, no external argument can change it. Discussions may trigger questions in my mind that I then ask my inner source of knowledge and guidance. Those aren't even questions you might ask, but questions that arise from my same inner-source.

You tried to have an argument, prove me wrong, make me reflect on what you say. I'm not available for such a conversation. Not interested.

"How foundations work"? To me that question makes no sense, and I am not even interested what you mean by that at this stage of our exchange. I am beyond that. (I don't intend to offend you. I'm neutral).

Surely I believe you're mistaken, but I have no intention to argue your view, nor my view. Truth can't be argued, can't be voted, can't be learned form another (in my opinion).

This is what I meant by "This leads nowhere. Thanks for the chat. "

[inavalan]

I think that this is a deep Ramana quote:

“The Self alone exists. When you try to trace the ego, which is the basis of the perception of the world and everything else, you find the ego does not exist at all and neither does all this creation that you see.”
— Ramana Maharshi

Others:

“The question ‘Who am I?’ is not really meant to get an answer, the question ‘Who am I?’ is meant to dissolve the questioner.”
— Ramana Maharshi

“He who thinks he is the doer is also the sufferer.”
— Ramana Maharshi

“Realisation is not acquisition of anything new nor is it a new faculty. It is only removal of all camouflage.”
— Ramana Maharshi

“You are all searching for the silence of the mountain. But you’re looking for something outside. This silence is accessible to you right now, inside the center of your own being.”
— Ramana Maharshi

“Silence is also conversation.”
— Ramana Maharshi

“The thing to do is to concentrate on the seer and not on the seen, not on the objects, but on the Light which reveals them.”
— Ramana Maharshi

“There is nothing wrong with God’s creation. Mystery and Suffering only exist in the mind.”
— Ramana Maharshi

“That which is not present in deep dreamless sleep is not real.”
— Ramana Maharshi

“The world is not outside you.”
— Ramana Maharshi

“To ask the mind to kill itself is like making the thief the policeman. He will go with you and pretend to catch the thief, but nothing will be gained. So you must turn inward and see where the mind rises from, and then it will cease to exist.”
— Ramana Maharshi

“In truth, you are spirit. The body has been projected by the mind, which itself originates from Spirit.”
— Ramana Maharshi

“Reality is simply the loss of ego. Destroy the ego by seeking its identity. Because the ego is no entity it will automatically vanish and reality will shine forth by itself.”
— Ramana Maharshi

“Forgetfulness of your real nature is true death; remembrance of it is rebirth.”
— Ramana Maharshi

[lolly]

Apr 26, 2023 14:50:40 GMT -5 tenka said:

Apr 23, 2023 15:13:20 GMT -5 inavalan said:

This discussion took a turn that leads nowhere. Sorry. We won't get anywhere.

I believe that there is no "true - real - correct opinion". Everything is subjective and to some degree distorted, including all experiences.

Surely I have opinions / beliefs / views, with various degrees of confidence that they're correct, and act on them, but that doesn't mean that I consider them infallible.

I don't "blindly" trust any of my experiences, and even less those of others,no matter who they are / were.

I just play the game with what I have.

Why would you have more confidence in one experience over another? That doesn't reflect that all experiences are distorted to some degree . What makes one experience more distorted than another .

You would have to have a foundational belief in effect otherwise you wouldn't be able to discern one degree of distortion over another .

Do you understand that your foundation has to reflect what you believe .

If you can't believe in your foundation then what you believe is more correct can't be based upon that .

Peeps don't seem to understand how their foundation reflects everything .

Distorted with regards to what?

[tenka]

Apr 29, 2023 6:13:59 GMT -5 lolly said:

Apr 26, 2023 14:50:40 GMT -5 tenka said:

Why would you have more confidence in one experience over another? That doesn't reflect that all experiences are distorted to some degree . What makes one experience more distorted than another .

You would have to have a foundational belief in effect otherwise you wouldn't be able to discern one degree of distortion over another .

Do you understand that your foundation has to reflect what you believe .

If you can't believe in your foundation then what you believe is more correct can't be based upon that .

Peeps don't seem to understand how their foundation reflects everything .

Distorted with regards to what?

Your guess is as good as mine . I am only following inavalan's lead in regards to distortion .

[tenka]

Apr 28, 2023 16:25:41 GMT -5 inavalan said:

Apr 28, 2023 14:01:31 GMT -5 tenka said:

Well it does lead somewhere, it's just that you are not interested in looking at how foundations work .

The very same foundations that are at the root of what you believe and what you don't .

If you understood this, then you wouldn't be saying what you are saying, but that's up to you .

It's easy to point the finger at someone and say they are wrong, but a little harder to look at oneself in reflection of what is countered .

My position is that what we discuss here can't be argued. You present your view, I present mine. We may ask and answer honest questions, understand or not the other's view, and that's about it.

My view, and probably yours too, isn't based on a rationalization of some data, but on my inner experiences. Hence, no external argument can change it. Discussions may trigger questions in my mind that I then ask my inner source of knowledge and guidance. Those aren't even questions you might ask, but questions that arise from my same inner-source.

You tried to have an argument, prove me wrong, make me reflect on what you say. I'm not available for such a conversation. Not interested.

"How foundations work"? To me that question makes no sense, and I am not even interested what you mean by that at this stage of our exchange. I am beyond that. (I don't intend to offend you. I'm neutral).

Surely I believe you're mistaken, but I have no intention to argue your view, nor my view. Truth can't be argued, can't be voted, can't be learned form another (in my opinion).

This is what I meant by "This leads nowhere. Thanks for the chat. "

Butt you have said that experiences are not true or real or whatever word suits .

This is why I have questioned your foundational belief system .

You measure what is a correct opinion to various degrees although one's experiences can't be trusted for use of a better word .

Your belief system is based upon what you initially believe to be true based upon experience, to then dismiss it somewhat .

This is why I have spoken about you not understanding your foundation .

You don't understand, nor are you interesting in exploring this aspect .¨

It seems to be common enough to be said that peeps with premises don't understand the foundation that facilitates it .

[inavalan]

Apr 29, 2023 14:06:03 GMT -5 tenka said:

Apr 28, 2023 16:25:41 GMT -5 inavalan said:

My position is that what we discuss here can't be argued. You present your view, I present mine. We may ask and answer honest questions, understand or not the other's view, and that's about it.

My view, and probably yours too, isn't based on a rationalization of some data, but on my inner experiences. Hence, no external argument can change it. Discussions may trigger questions in my mind that I then ask my inner source of knowledge and guidance. Those aren't even questions you might ask, but questions that arise from my same inner-source.

You tried to have an argument, prove me wrong, make me reflect on what you say. I'm not available for such a conversation. Not interested.

"How foundations work"? To me that question makes no sense, and I am not even interested what you mean by that at this stage of our exchange. I am beyond that. (I don't intend to offend you. I'm neutral).

Surely I believe you're mistaken, but I have no intention to argue your view, nor my view. Truth can't be argued, can't be voted, can't be learned form another (in my opinion).

This is what I meant by "This leads nowhere. Thanks for the chat. "

Butt you have said that experiences are not true or real or whatever word suits .

This is why I have questioned your foundational belief system .

You measure what is a correct opinion to various degrees although one's experiences can't be trusted for use of a better word .

Your belief system is based upon what you initially believe to be true based upon experience, to then dismiss it somewhat .

This is why I have spoken about you not understanding your foundation .

You don't understand, nor are you interesting in exploring this aspect .¨

I seems to be common enough to be said that peeps with premises don't understand the foundation that facilitates it .

You don't know what you're talking about. Let it go!

[tenka]

Apr 29, 2023 14:10:13 GMT -5 inavalan said:

Apr 29, 2023 14:06:03 GMT -5 tenka said:

Butt you have said that experiences are not true or real or whatever word suits .

This is why I have questioned your foundational belief system .

You measure what is a correct opinion to various degrees although one's experiences can't be trusted for use of a better word .

Your belief system is based upon what you initially believe to be true based upon experience, to then dismiss it somewhat .

This is why I have spoken about you not understanding your foundation .

You don't understand, nor are you interesting in exploring this aspect .¨

I seems to be common enough to be said that peeps with premises don't understand the foundation that facilitates it .

You don't know what you're talking about. Let it go!

What is it that you think I don't know what I am talking about?

I have simply asked you a few questions and explained what I mean regarding how foundations work .

You say that it doesn't make sense and you are not interested ..

That's fine, but then you speak about I don't know what I am talking about .

That makes no sense to me ..

You keep saying for me to let go of something, as if I am losing sleep over your deflections .

I have experienced this many times when simple questions are asked  about someone's premises .

It can go pear shaped rather quickly, like I have experienced with you .

It's kinda revealing how someone behaves when asked something that challenges their beliefs .

I have asked you a straightforward question above, you are welcome to respond, but it's fine if you don't ..

Hows that for letting it go?