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Post by laughter on Apr 22, 2023 8:39:12 GMT -5
I'd invite you to consider the possibility that the source of "To Thine own self be true" is more interesting than the ad-hominem facets of this dialog.  Of course that's true. And when you have such a low view of a person that you think you need to "teach" them that, it's probably better to not talk to them at all. Well, I don't have a low view of you and would never presume to even attempt to teach anyone anything other than in a work situation. Was just tellin' a banter-joke. Was all. Honests Abes. |
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Post by Reefs on Apr 22, 2023 9:17:21 GMT -5
It occurred to me this morning that trances and ego (in Tolle's meaning of the word) are very similar. In this regard, I would say yes to the similarity between the two, ultimately it all comes down to awareness being spellbound by anything but itself. In this temporary existence, it seems, the most important choices we can make are a matter of where we choose to place our attention. That's the only freedom you have. And that's also why deliberate creation, at the core, is all about attention management.
In that context, look at how careless people usually are with their attention. They let whatever comes along grab their full attention. I always found it interesting that some tech billionaires like Steve Jobs basically banned phones and computers in their homes. Some of the most successful people don't watch the news, don't do social media, never surf the internet, never do email and some don't even have a phone. Now compare that to the daily habits of the Average Joe and Jane who are glued to their tiny screens all day and you'll see a correlation between successful attention management and general success in life, or lack of attention management and lack of general success in life.
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Post by tenka on Apr 22, 2023 14:20:12 GMT -5
I doubt it because I don't have a hardline stance about what was realised in reflection of the reality lived . I question those that do . If one has transcended mindfulness then one would know what I mean in regards to this . If you for instance said that this world reality is a dream and there are no other individuals that exist then I would question that, if you based that on a realisation . Does that make me hardcore? For example: that is your opinion, and I doubt its validity. You might point again that I din't "transcend ..." and that's why I can't know. I would reply that I believe your idea of a mindfulness transcendence is by your beliefs. There is no arbiter to break the tie. You'd leave with your opinion, and I would leave with mine. Stopping such an argument, the sooner the better. I used "hardcore" only quoting you, with no special emphasis. By the way: to me "one has transcended mindfulness" means nothing. I don't think that this is what one should look for. On the other hand, it is your path and your current conviction. So in regards to my opinion, do you tar that opinion with the same brush as going to the fridge for a beer? I mean opinions are opinions based upon many things. Based upon what one has experienced and not . If you have never gone to a fridge for a beer for examples sake, then if I had described my experience of that you would perhaps respond in the same vein and say that's just my opinion .. butt in my eyes I simply spoke about my experience . I wouldn't have to speak in terms of absolute truths or anything .. it's just what I experience in reflection of what I believe to be true . Otherwise we wouldn't say we have experienced that would we .. If you said to me you logged onto the forum I would say, well that's just your opinion .. that would be kinda bloody stupid to say really. What I said still stands . If you don't have a reference for something then it doesn't make sense to me for anyone to dismiss it in some way based upon it's just an opinion said . I find it a bit odd at times when I question folk about what they say and they make it to be an argument of sorts lol . Pilgrim has gone down that route also in a similar fashion . My questions are just questions . How one behaves to them reveals a lot . |
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Post by andrew on Apr 22, 2023 14:22:29 GMT -5
Just to throw a spanner in the driving works, Abraham has actually said that the reason that there are relatively so FEW accidents on highways is because people enjoy their car space, relax, and allow themselves to often drift into happy thoughts while driving. This is probably less true in cities, when our attention is demanded a lot more on the roads, and actually people are then grumpier drivers. I've done tons of driving in my life, often drift into thought, and yet my alert responses seem to be amazing...they often surprise me... perhaps because I'm NOT focusing that much on the road. My responses may be better when the attentive 'I' is only slightly focused on what's happening. I have done still mind exercises while driving, but I usually enjoy listening to music more, and the music often takes me to interesting and good places. I said to one of my boys the other day when I went to visit him that I can't remember the last 15 minutes of my journey lol . I even shocked myself and thought wtf. One particular time when I did a run in a forest I came round and I was 20 ft away from a load of deer munching on the grass, they didn't notice me until I noticed them or vice versa .. Again, I was shocked as much as they were. It's impossible to navigate around the forest with your eyes shut, but the issue I would say here is remembering that one was aware of running when one only remembers the point of running because there wasn't awareness of it at the time hahah .. It's a slightly different kettle of fish, but many don't realise what they get up to when one goes to sleep at night until they awaken in the morning although one was always consciously aware . There are certain high vibration states that I enter into at times...bliss....love....joy....and in those states, I am very much away with the fairies. I don't know if those states relate to 3rd eye or pineal, but I could not say I have 'present moment awareness' during those times. It's one detail I disagree with SDP about, in that he sees imagination as something to be overcome, whereas I see imagination as a portal to a higher mind, or higher dimension. With that said, I do see value in present moment awareness too, there are times when I am super-present and that's cool too. I'd say it all boils down to interest/values. If one is sincerely interested in experiencing a silent mind, then they will do. If they value the experience of that very highly, that's what they will experience. My interests vary, my values are as much about creative potential as they are present moment awareness. I do value the background sense of 'being conscious' of whatever my interest is in any given moment. |
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Post by tenka on Apr 22, 2023 14:33:45 GMT -5
I said to one of my boys the other day when I went to visit him that I can't remember the last 15 minutes of my journey lol . I even shocked myself and thought wtf. One particular time when I did a run in a forest I came round and I was 20 ft away from a load of deer munching on the grass, they didn't notice me until I noticed them or vice versa .. Again, I was shocked as much as they were. It's impossible to navigate around the forest with your eyes shut, but the issue I would say here is remembering that one was aware of running when one only remembers the point of running because there wasn't awareness of it at the time hahah .. It's a slightly different kettle of fish, but many don't realise what they get up to when one goes to sleep at night until they awaken in the morning although one was always consciously aware . There are certain high vibration states that I enter into at times...bliss....love....joy....and in those states, I am very much away with the fairies. I don't know if those states relate to 3rd eye or pineal, but I could not say I have 'present moment awareness' during those times. It's one detail I disagree with SDP about, in that he sees imagination as something to be overcome, whereas I see imagination as a portal to a higher mind, or higher dimension. With that said, I do see value in present moment awareness too, there are times when I am super-present and that's cool too. I'd say it all boils down to interest/values. If one is sincerely interested in experiencing a silent mind, then they will do. If they value the experience of that very highly, that's what they will experience. My interests vary, my values are as much about creative potential as they are present moment awareness. I do value the background sense of 'being conscious' of whatever my interest is in any given moment. I for one don't totally understand the ability we have at being aware of the road were driving on while being away with the fairies at the same time . I haven't as yet been aware of both at the exact same time. Has anyone else? Open Question . It's easy to say that we are on autopilot when we can't remember driving down the road or doing our daily chores . Our attention drifts, that's a given, but in some eyes we are living parallel lives in the past, present and future at the same time but can only be aware of one perception point at a time . What I don't agree upon is that there is some super duper consciousness thingy that can drive a car whilst my self awareness is flying on pegasus . There really isn't an autopilot I would say . There is what you are that is aware of driving all the time just as there is awareness of being, whilst being asleep at night . The autopilot seemingly gives some power to something that is not what you are on an individual level, that takes over . |
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Post by andrew on Apr 22, 2023 14:47:20 GMT -5
There are certain high vibration states that I enter into at times...bliss....love....joy....and in those states, I am very much away with the fairies. I don't know if those states relate to 3rd eye or pineal, but I could not say I have 'present moment awareness' during those times. It's one detail I disagree with SDP about, in that he sees imagination as something to be overcome, whereas I see imagination as a portal to a higher mind, or higher dimension. With that said, I do see value in present moment awareness too, there are times when I am super-present and that's cool too. I'd say it all boils down to interest/values. If one is sincerely interested in experiencing a silent mind, then they will do. If they value the experience of that very highly, that's what they will experience. My interests vary, my values are as much about creative potential as they are present moment awareness. I do value the background sense of 'being conscious' of whatever my interest is in any given moment. I for one don't totally understand the ability we have at being aware of the road were driving on while being away with the fairies at the same time . I haven't as yet been aware of both at the exact same time. Has anyone else? Open Question . It's easy to say that we are on autopilot when we can't remember driving down the road or doing our daily chores . Our attention drifts, that's a given, but in some eyes we are living parallel lives in the past, present and future at the same time but can only be aware of one perception point at a time . What I don't agree upon is that there is some super duper consciousness thingy that can drive a car whilst my self awareness is flying on pegasus . There really isn't an autopilot I would say . There is what you are that is aware of driving all the time just as there is awareness of being, whilst being asleep at night . The autopilot seemingly gives some power to something that is not what you are on an individual level, that takes over . Perhaps it can be explained in terms of percentages. For example, right now, replying, I'd say you have 90% of my attention. And by 'you', I mean what you said, my thoughts about what you said, my own set of ideas, and expressing them clearly. One of the reasons I like the forum is because I like that experience of committed attention. I like zeroing in on something. I also have headphones on listening to music, and that probably has 5% of my attention (more so temporarily as I'm analysing what's happening). But some actions are just so habituated that they only require a small percentage of our attention, and I put driving in that category. When I drive past a speed trap, THEN driving gets more of my attention lol. So I'd say that when there is habituation, there is an 'intelligence' handling the driving...whether we say this is the unconscious mind, or brain, or body intelligence...whatever. Similarly, when we walk, we don't have to give it attention, unless we are injured or something, and then it takes up more of our attention. (so no, I also can't be away with the fairies and also be very aware of the road at the same time). |
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Post by inavalan on Apr 22, 2023 15:25:53 GMT -5
For example: that is your opinion, and I doubt its validity. You might point again that I din't "transcend ..." and that's why I can't know. I would reply that I believe your idea of a mindfulness transcendence is by your beliefs. There is no arbiter to break the tie. You'd leave with your opinion, and I would leave with mine. Stopping such an argument, the sooner the better. I used "hardcore" only quoting you, with no special emphasis. By the way: to me "one has transcended mindfulness" means nothing. I don't think that this is what one should look for. On the other hand, it is your path and your current conviction. So in regards to my opinion, do you tar that opinion with the same brush as going to the fridge for a beer? I mean opinions are opinions based upon many things. Based upon what one has experienced and not . If you have never gone to a fridge for a beer for examples sake, then if I had described my experience of that you would perhaps respond in the same vein and say that's just my opinion .. butt in my eyes I simply spoke about my experience . I wouldn't have to speak in terms of absolute truths or anything .. it's just what I experience in reflection of what I believe to be true . Otherwise we wouldn't say we have experienced that would we .. If you said to me you logged onto the forum I would say, well that's just your opinion .. that would be kinda bloody stupid to say really. What I said still stands . If you don't have a reference for something then it doesn't make sense to me for anyone to dismiss it in some way based upon it's just an opinion said . I find it a bit odd at times when I question folk about what they say and they make it to be an argument of sorts lol . Pilgrim has gone down that route also in a similar fashion . My questions are just questions . How one behaves to them reveals a lot . My view comes from the perspective that all that one perceives is subjective. Almost all that one knows is belief. It isn't that I dismiss what you experienced, but I know that it wasn't objective. I know that it was a subjective experience, distorted to some degree, that might interest me or not. Your statements about transcending mindfulness, don't make me consider that that might be an experience that means what you believe to mean, and there isn't something that I would seek. I understand that you believe that transcending mindfulness is something worth achieving. I don't. There are so many different, many even opposing opinions about almost everything. It isn't that I dismiss them. I don't care about most of them. Surely, I believe that many are incorrect, but in most cases I have no motivation to argue their (in)validity. In all this long exchange, my point is that whatever you believe about another and his opinions, can and probably is felt in a similar way by the other about you and your opiniosn. There is no basis for an argument to resolve if you or the other is "right". It seems that you disagree. That's okay. |
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Post by justlikeyou on Apr 22, 2023 20:44:13 GMT -5
Seems to me that almost everyone, in one way or another, is transfixed...fascinated by... appearances. Appearances, it seems, even have the power to give rise to empassioned debate about what? About "appearances", lol. But at what expense is fixation on what appears? It is at the expense of noticing in what appearances appear...the space, the still, silent, "no-thingness" of the space in which appearances appear. Try to imagine the picture below without space around the cells. Can't be done, right? Even looking here, at this image, it is almost as if the appearances are designed fix one's attention on the appearance, and not on the Unseen, the ground in which appearances appear. In Almost Living Color: The First Colored Electron Micrographs of Cells |
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Post by tenka on Apr 23, 2023 4:41:40 GMT -5
I for one don't totally understand the ability we have at being aware of the road were driving on while being away with the fairies at the same time . I haven't as yet been aware of both at the exact same time. Has anyone else? Open Question . It's easy to say that we are on autopilot when we can't remember driving down the road or doing our daily chores . Our attention drifts, that's a given, but in some eyes we are living parallel lives in the past, present and future at the same time but can only be aware of one perception point at a time . What I don't agree upon is that there is some super duper consciousness thingy that can drive a car whilst my self awareness is flying on pegasus . There really isn't an autopilot I would say . There is what you are that is aware of driving all the time just as there is awareness of being, whilst being asleep at night . The autopilot seemingly gives some power to something that is not what you are on an individual level, that takes over . Perhaps it can be explained in terms of percentages. For example, right now, replying, I'd say you have 90% of my attention. And by 'you', I mean what you said, my thoughts about what you said, my own set of ideas, and expressing them clearly. One of the reasons I like the forum is because I like that experience of committed attention. I like zeroing in on something. I also have headphones on listening to music, and that probably has 5% of my attention (more so temporarily as I'm analysing what's happening). But some actions are just so habituated that they only require a small percentage of our attention, and I put driving in that category. When I drive past a speed trap, THEN driving gets more of my attention lol. So I'd say that when there is habituation, there is an 'intelligence' handling the driving...whether we say this is the unconscious mind, or brain, or body intelligence...whatever. Similarly, when we walk, we don't have to give it attention, unless we are injured or something, and then it takes up more of our attention. (so no, I also can't be away with the fairies and also be very aware of the road at the same time).So it kinda boils down to being aware of the road on some level because if we fell asleep at the wheel or closed our eyes for 5 minutes we are going to end up in an almighty mess . Like you said you can give me 90% of your attention and also have some music going on in the background and then attention shifts back and forth and elsewhere .. I feel from past conversations had over the years this autopilot thingy when related to being the real self or super duper consciousness being at the helm whist a fictitious self identity is pretending to drive isn't correct at all . There simply is the individual self driving and one's awareness can in a way be an impressive multitasker .. |
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Post by tenka on Apr 23, 2023 4:46:09 GMT -5
So in regards to my opinion, do you tar that opinion with the same brush as going to the fridge for a beer? I mean opinions are opinions based upon many things. Based upon what one has experienced and not . If you have never gone to a fridge for a beer for examples sake, then if I had described my experience of that you would perhaps respond in the same vein and say that's just my opinion .. butt in my eyes I simply spoke about my experience . I wouldn't have to speak in terms of absolute truths or anything .. it's just what I experience in reflection of what I believe to be true . Otherwise we wouldn't say we have experienced that would we .. If you said to me you logged onto the forum I would say, well that's just your opinion .. that would be kinda bloody stupid to say really. What I said still stands . If you don't have a reference for something then it doesn't make sense to me for anyone to dismiss it in some way based upon it's just an opinion said . I find it a bit odd at times when I question folk about what they say and they make it to be an argument of sorts lol . Pilgrim has gone down that route also in a similar fashion . My questions are just questions . How one behaves to them reveals a lot . My view comes from the perspective that all that one perceives is subjective. Almost all that one knows is belief. It isn't that I dismiss what you experienced, but I know that it wasn't objective. I know that it was a subjective experience, distorted to some degree, that might interest me or not. .. Sure, we all have a subjective take on what is experienced .. I asked you if this opinion I have on transcending is in the same vein as you having an opinion of experiencing logging on to the forums .. If it is then I can understand bit more of where you are coming from, at present, you seemed to home in on transcending the mind is just an opinion I have and like said, opinions derive from a manner of all things, some from direct experience and some not . |
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Post by tenka on Apr 23, 2023 4:51:31 GMT -5
So in regards to my opinion, do you tar that opinion with the same brush as going to the fridge for a beer? I mean opinions are opinions based upon many things. Based upon what one has experienced and not . If you have never gone to a fridge for a beer for examples sake, then if I had described my experience of that you would perhaps respond in the same vein and say that's just my opinion .. butt in my eyes I simply spoke about my experience . I wouldn't have to speak in terms of absolute truths or anything .. it's just what I experience in reflection of what I believe to be true . Otherwise we wouldn't say we have experienced that would we .. If you said to me you logged onto the forum I would say, well that's just your opinion .. that would be kinda bloody stupid to say really. What I said still stands . If you don't have a reference for something then it doesn't make sense to me for anyone to dismiss it in some way based upon it's just an opinion said . I find it a bit odd at times when I question folk about what they say and they make it to be an argument of sorts lol . Pilgrim has gone down that route also in a similar fashion . My questions are just questions . How one behaves to them reveals a lot . I understand that you believe that transcending mindfulness is something worth achieving. I don't. .. Transcending mind will give one an understanding of what is mindful once returned within awareness of it . It's something worthwhile in regards to having that understanding . Would you say there is no value with having that comparison? |
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Post by andrew on Apr 23, 2023 4:54:55 GMT -5
Perhaps it can be explained in terms of percentages. For example, right now, replying, I'd say you have 90% of my attention. And by 'you', I mean what you said, my thoughts about what you said, my own set of ideas, and expressing them clearly. One of the reasons I like the forum is because I like that experience of committed attention. I like zeroing in on something. I also have headphones on listening to music, and that probably has 5% of my attention (more so temporarily as I'm analysing what's happening). But some actions are just so habituated that they only require a small percentage of our attention, and I put driving in that category. When I drive past a speed trap, THEN driving gets more of my attention lol. So I'd say that when there is habituation, there is an 'intelligence' handling the driving...whether we say this is the unconscious mind, or brain, or body intelligence...whatever. Similarly, when we walk, we don't have to give it attention, unless we are injured or something, and then it takes up more of our attention. (so no, I also can't be away with the fairies and also be very aware of the road at the same time).So it kinda boils down to being aware of the road on some level because if we fell asleep at the wheel or closed our eyes for 5 minutes we are going to end up in an almighty mess . Like you said you can give me 90% of your attention and also have some music going on in the background and then attention shifts back and forth and elsewhere .. I feel from past conversations had over the years this autopilot thingy when related to being the real self or super duper consciousness being at the helm whist a fictitious self identity is pretending to drive isn't correct at all . T here simply is the individual self driving and one's awareness can in a way be an impressive multitasker .. Yep that's it. And I think it's interesting to consider how that happens. ZD likes to talk about how the blood pumps around the body, so is that 'tasking' happening within this context, or is that a different context? I don't think there's a pat answer to that. Clearly there's a difference between the attention required to drive a car (even if it's just small amount of attention), and blood pumping round the body, but perhaps we could say that there is actually a 0.000001% aspect of our awareness that is involved with the blood pumping. This sort of relates to something I was asking lolly about...is breathing TOTALLY outside of our awareness, or in our attention participating in the breathing pattern? By using our mind, we can affect our blood pressure, heart rate, breathing, so that suggests that there is a tiny corner of our awareness that is involved with body functions that we naturally say are 'effortless'. I see many angles to this conversation, and it's an interesting one to me, because it does relate to creative potential, which in part, is about being responsible for everything that's happening. |
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Post by andrew on Apr 23, 2023 4:56:19 GMT -5
I understand that you believe that transcending mindfulness is something worth achieving. I don't. .. Transcending mind will give one an understanding of what is mindful once returned within awareness of it . It's something worthwhile in regards to having that understanding . Would you say there is no value with having that comparison? I also see value, but for clarity, could you explain the value in having the comparison? Is there practical value...experiential value...? |
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Post by tenka on Apr 23, 2023 4:57:09 GMT -5
So in regards to my opinion, do you tar that opinion with the same brush as going to the fridge for a beer? I mean opinions are opinions based upon many things. Based upon what one has experienced and not . If you have never gone to a fridge for a beer for examples sake, then if I had described my experience of that you would perhaps respond in the same vein and say that's just my opinion .. butt in my eyes I simply spoke about my experience . I wouldn't have to speak in terms of absolute truths or anything .. it's just what I experience in reflection of what I believe to be true . Otherwise we wouldn't say we have experienced that would we .. If you said to me you logged onto the forum I would say, well that's just your opinion .. that would be kinda bloody stupid to say really. What I said still stands . If you don't have a reference for something then it doesn't make sense to me for anyone to dismiss it in some way based upon it's just an opinion said . I find it a bit odd at times when I question folk about what they say and they make it to be an argument of sorts lol . Pilgrim has gone down that route also in a similar fashion . My questions are just questions . How one behaves to them reveals a lot . There are so many different, many even opposing opinions about almost everything. It isn't that I dismiss them. I don't care about most of them. Surely, I believe that many are incorrect, but in most cases I have no motivation to argue their (in)validity. .. well you said to me about transcending mind that is my opinion, and you doubt its validity . You believe many opinions are incorrect, so what would constitute a correct opinion bearing in mind everything is based upon a subjective experience? This is why I asked you about the validity of experiencing logging on to the forums or going to the fridge for a beer. So what constitutes a true - real - correct opinion? What's it based on? |
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Post by tenka on Apr 23, 2023 5:12:14 GMT -5
.. Transcending mind will give one an understanding of what is mindful once returned within awareness of it . It's something worthwhile in regards to having that understanding . Would you say there is no value with having that comparison? I also see value, but for clarity, could you explain the value in having the comparison? Is there practical value...experiential value...? It brings to the table an understanding of what you are that is mindful and what isn't . Just the same as knowing that what you are isn't separate from anything . What does it do for anyone in practical terms, perhaps not a lot . It won't stop the cost of living increasing or the clouds forming above . For myself I know that when there is self awareness present, there has to be an environment that sustains that . There has to be because there is what you are beyond that, which doesn't sustain a thought of that or anything else . When one's understanding expands in reflection of what you are I see value in that . Of course there is some value in being ignorant also .. I was just asking why one wouldn't see any value in having a broader understanding that pertains to what you are .. |
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