|
|
Post by tenka on Apr 23, 2023 5:18:13 GMT -5
So it kinda boils down to being aware of the road on some level because if we fell asleep at the wheel or closed our eyes for 5 minutes we are going to end up in an almighty mess . Like you said you can give me 90% of your attention and also have some music going on in the background and then attention shifts back and forth and elsewhere .. I feel from past conversations had over the years this autopilot thingy when related to being the real self or super duper consciousness being at the helm whist a fictitious self identity is pretending to drive isn't correct at all . T here simply is the individual self driving and one's awareness can in a way be an impressive multitasker .. Yep that's it. And I think it's interesting to consider how that happens. ZD likes to talk about how the blood pumps around the body, so is that 'tasking' happening within this context, or is that a different context? .. I would say it's a different context . The mind body organism is designed so to speak to carry out functions . We don't have to mindfully make the blood circulate around the body . I remember conversations before speaking about the mind body can drive on it's own and that's why one can not be aware of driving and still get to your destination in one piece . I don't think that at all . like said, one is simply able to multitask and it depends on where one's full attention is at, or 20% or 50% If there was 100% attention of driving there cannot be 10% attention on what tune is playing on the car radio . The tricky part is not remembering being aware at the time when there has been a sense of absence experienced. |
|
|
|
Post by tenka on Apr 23, 2023 5:22:52 GMT -5
So it kinda boils down to being aware of the road on some level because if we fell asleep at the wheel or closed our eyes for 5 minutes we are going to end up in an almighty mess . Like you said you can give me 90% of your attention and also have some music going on in the background and then attention shifts back and forth and elsewhere .. I feel from past conversations had over the years this autopilot thingy when related to being the real self or super duper consciousness being at the helm whist a fictitious self identity is pretending to drive isn't correct at all . T here simply is the individual self driving and one's awareness can in a way be an impressive multitasker .. Yep that's it. And I think it's interesting to consider how that happens. ZD likes to talk about how the blood pumps around the body, so is that 'tasking' happening within this context, or is that a different context? I don't think there's a pat answer to that. Clearly there's a difference between the attention required to drive a car (even if it's just small amount of attention), and blood pumping round the body, but perhaps we could say that there is actually a 0.000001% aspect of our awareness that is involved with the blood pumping. This sort of relates to something I was asking lolly about...is breathing TOTALLY outside of our awareness, or in our attention participating in the breathing pattern? By using our mind, we can affect our blood pressure, heart rate, breathing, so that suggests that there is a tiny corner of our awareness that is involved with body functions that we naturally say are 'effortless'. I see many angles to this conversation, and it's an interesting one to me, because it does relate to creative potential, which in part, is about being responsible for everything that's happening. For sure .. our thoughts DO effect all self aspects . The mental, physical and emotional states are all entwined, it a package deal after all . The mind-body cells carry out their programming, but as a peep that like to work with energy, we can manipulate the programming . We can speak to our cells . The sky is the limit . |
|
|
|
Post by andrew on Apr 23, 2023 6:04:48 GMT -5
I also see value, but for clarity, could you explain the value in having the comparison? Is there practical value...experiential value...? It brings to the table an understanding of what you are that is mindful and what isn't . Just the same as knowing that what you are isn't separate from anything . What does it do for anyone in practical terms, perhaps not a lot . It won't stop the cost of living increasing or the clouds forming above . For myself I know that when there is self awareness present, there has to be an environment that sustains that . There has to be because there is what you are beyond that, which doesn't sustain a thought of that or anything else . When one's understanding expands in reflection of what you are I see value in that . Of course there is some value in being ignorant also .. I was just asking why one wouldn't see any value in having a broader understanding that pertains to what you are .. I get you, I'm asking because it's what I might want to know if I didn't already get you. Would you say that knowing the comparison has changed your experience in some regard? Or perhaps the way that you experience? |
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Apr 23, 2023 8:03:32 GMT -5
I also see value, but for clarity, could you explain the value in having the comparison? Is there practical value...experiential value...? It brings to the table an understanding of what you are that is mindful and what isn't . Just the same as knowing that what you are isn't separate from anything . What does it do for anyone in practical terms, perhaps not a lot . It won't stop the cost of living increasing or the clouds forming above . For myself I know that when there is self awareness present, there has to be an environment that sustains that . There has to be because there is what you are beyond that, which doesn't sustain a thought of that or anything else . When one's understanding expands in reflection of what you are I see value in that . Of course there is some value in being ignorant also .. I was just asking why one wouldn't see any value in having a broader understanding that pertains to what you are .. From my POV the value of understanding what you are is incalculable because it eradicates the idea of separation and eliminates the usual kinds of self-centered thinking. When there is sufficiently deep insight into what we are, one feels one-with whatever is happening because one understands that what one IS IS whatever is happening. It's like coming home and relaxing in a comfortable recliner called "Source." This results in a feeling of freedom, peace, effortlessness, and equanimity because all of the imagined false idols (fame, wealth, or attainment of any kind for a false self) are no longer seen as goals to be chased after. What could be better than discovering what we are, knowing what we are, and being what we are?  |
|
|
|
Post by justlikeyou on Apr 23, 2023 8:24:14 GMT -5
It brings to the table an understanding of what you are that is mindful and what isn't . Just the same as knowing that what you are isn't separate from anything . What does it do for anyone in practical terms, perhaps not a lot . It won't stop the cost of living increasing or the clouds forming above . For myself I know that when there is self awareness present, there has to be an environment that sustains that . There has to be because there is what you are beyond that, which doesn't sustain a thought of that or anything else . When one's understanding expands in reflection of what you are I see value in that . Of course there is some value in being ignorant also .. I was just asking why one wouldn't see any value in having a broader understanding that pertains to what you are .. From my POV the value of understanding what you are is incalculable because it eradicates the idea of separation and eliminates the usual kinds of self-centered thinking. When there is sufficiently deep insight into what we are, one feels one-with whatever is happening because one understands that what one IS IS whatever is happening. It's like coming home and relaxing in a comfortable recliner called "Source." This results in a feeling of freedom, peace, effortlessness, and equanimity because all of the imagined false idols (fame, wealth, or attainment of any kind for a false self) are no longer seen as goals to be chased after. What could be better than discovering what we are, knowing what we are, and being what we are? From the end of the Peaceful Warrior Dan, where are you? Here. What time is it? Now. What are you? This moment. |
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Apr 23, 2023 8:27:13 GMT -5
Yep that's it. And I think it's interesting to consider how that happens. ZD likes to talk about how the blood pumps around the body, so is that 'tasking' happening within this context, or is that a different context? .. I would say it's a different context . The mind body organism is designed so to speak to carry out functions . We don't have to mindfully make the blood circulate around the body . I remember conversations before speaking about the mind body can drive on it's own and that's why one can not be aware of driving and still get to your destination in one piece . I don't think that at all . like said, one is simply able to multitask and it depends on where one's full attention is at, or 20% or 50% If there was 100% attention of driving there cannot be 10% attention on what tune is playing on the car radio . The tricky part is not remembering being aware at the time when there has been a sense of absence experienced. From my POV, it's the same contextless context. A blood cell intelligently goes wherever it needs to go to fulfill whatever function it must fulfill. A human is exactly like that. The only difference is that THIS, in the form of humans, has evolved an intellect that can simulate reality in the form of images, ideas, and symbols, and can imagine that it is separate from all else. What is it that causes thoughts to arise in the mind? What is it that sees or hears? What is it that directs attention to one thing or another? What is it that drives a car when attention is focused on some conversation from last week? What is it that moves a blood cell wherever it needs to go or digests food? Call it "Source," or "the Unborn," or "What We Are," but THAT is the only doer of whatever is done. Can it be seen that either imagining a context, or imagining more than one context, are both acts of imagination? What we are is unimaginable and beyond the idea of context because what we are is an undivided whole. |
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Apr 23, 2023 9:05:24 GMT -5
From my POV the value of understanding what you are is incalculable because it eradicates the idea of separation and eliminates the usual kinds of self-centered thinking. When there is sufficiently deep insight into what we are, one feels one-with whatever is happening because one understands that what one IS IS whatever is happening. It's like coming home and relaxing in a comfortable recliner called "Source." This results in a feeling of freedom, peace, effortlessness, and equanimity because all of the imagined false idols (fame, wealth, or attainment of any kind for a false self) are no longer seen as goals to be chased after. What could be better than discovering what we are, knowing what we are, and being what we are? From the end of the Peaceful Warrior Dan, where are you? Here. What time is it? Now. What are you? This moment. That's good, but a more humorous answer to "What are you?" would have been to ask, "What's your name?" thereby answering the question while simultaneously challenging the questioner's understanding. Rinzai once gave a dharma talk about "the true man of no status" (a phrase he often used for pointing to Source in the form of humans). After he finished, a monk asked, "What is this true man of no status?" Rinzai grabbed him and shouted, "Speak! Speak!" The monk could not respond, so Rinzai flung him to one side and said, "What a worthless piece of dung this true man of no status is."  A more common Zen answer to the question, "What are you?" would be to turn around twice in silence and look at the questioner, or to hold up one's index finger in silence, or to silently wave at the questioner. |
|
|
|
Post by justlikeyou on Apr 23, 2023 10:53:26 GMT -5
From the end of the Peaceful Warrior Dan, where are you? Here. What time is it? Now. What are you? This moment. That's good, but a more humorous answer to "What are you?" would have been to ask, "What's your name?" thereby answering the question while simultaneously challenging the questioner's understanding. Rinzai once gave a dharma talk about "the true man of no status" (a phrase he often used for pointing to Source in the form of humans). After he finished, a monk asked, "What is this true man of no status?" Rinzai grabbed him and shouted, "Speak! Speak!" The monk could not respond, so Rinzai flung him to one side and said, "What a worthless piece of dung this true man of no status is." A more common Zen answer to the question, "What are you?" would be to turn around twice in silence and look at the questioner, or to hold up one's index finger in silence, or to silently wave at the questioner. Your Rinzai story made me laugh out loud. 😆 |
|
|
|
Post by tenka on Apr 23, 2023 13:42:44 GMT -5
It brings to the table an understanding of what you are that is mindful and what isn't . Just the same as knowing that what you are isn't separate from anything . What does it do for anyone in practical terms, perhaps not a lot . It won't stop the cost of living increasing or the clouds forming above . For myself I know that when there is self awareness present, there has to be an environment that sustains that . There has to be because there is what you are beyond that, which doesn't sustain a thought of that or anything else . When one's understanding expands in reflection of what you are I see value in that . Of course there is some value in being ignorant also .. I was just asking why one wouldn't see any value in having a broader understanding that pertains to what you are .. I get you, I'm asking because it's what I might want to know if I didn't already get you. Would you say that knowing the comparison has changed your experience in some regard? Or perhaps the way that you experience? It really is difficult to say in a way . I mean, if you realise that there is life after physical death and a loved one passes over, then you still grieve for them even though you know that they haven't died so to speak . You can't however take back what one has realised . So there is an accumulation of knowings and realisations that are integrated into your perception of life itself . Life itself in reflection of what you are . Knowing that all is what you are and what constitutes a mindful self and not are integrated into oneself . Does one still chop wood thereafter, of course, but the underlying knowings has a part to play in ones overall understandings . Like said, on a practical level, knowing what constitutes a mindful self and what doesn't won't change normal life and day to day activities, it's more to do with an understanding of what you are .. Knowing that everything is what you are has more of an impact I would say in regards to deliberately causing harm to others for example, but it doesn't mean one wouldn't defend themselves if need be . There are so many scenarios at play here I would say . I mean you hear of all these masters that seemingly know all that is and write books on it all, but still behave in a similar fashion at times prior to all those realisations . I appreciate the question, as I had to try and put it into words which was a journey for me in itself . |
|
|
|
Post by tenka on Apr 23, 2023 13:53:05 GMT -5
It brings to the table an understanding of what you are that is mindful and what isn't . Just the same as knowing that what you are isn't separate from anything . What does it do for anyone in practical terms, perhaps not a lot . It won't stop the cost of living increasing or the clouds forming above . For myself I know that when there is self awareness present, there has to be an environment that sustains that . There has to be because there is what you are beyond that, which doesn't sustain a thought of that or anything else . When one's understanding expands in reflection of what you are I see value in that . Of course there is some value in being ignorant also .. I was just asking why one wouldn't see any value in having a broader understanding that pertains to what you are .. From my POV the value of understanding what you are is incalculable because it eradicates the idea of separation and eliminates the usual kinds of self-centered thinking. When there is sufficiently deep insight into what we are, one feels one-with whatever is happening because one understands that what one IS IS whatever is happening. It's like coming home and relaxing in a comfortable recliner called "Source." This results in a feeling of freedom, peace, effortlessness, and equanimity because all of the imagined false idols (fame, wealth, or attainment of any kind for a false self) are no longer seen as goals to be chased after. What could be better than discovering what we are, knowing what we are, and being what we are? I understand what you are saying .. and it was kinda difficult explaining my take on it to Andy . Awareness of oneself in a way brings peace in relation to what was realised . I mean if one was a devoted seeker of finding self and realised that (for use of a better word) then the search is over . If one had an alien come visit then that would dissolve the thought if life exists elsewhere, but it doesn't really have an impact on day to day life in some respects . How would those resolvements reflect in one going to do the weekly shop or wash the dishes, simply cos one knows that life exists on Mars or that self awareness is mindful . |
|
|
|
Post by tenka on Apr 23, 2023 14:02:45 GMT -5
.. I would say it's a different context . The mind body organism is designed so to speak to carry out functions . We don't have to mindfully make the blood circulate around the body . I remember conversations before speaking about the mind body can drive on it's own and that's why one can not be aware of driving and still get to your destination in one piece . I don't think that at all . like said, one is simply able to multitask and it depends on where one's full attention is at, or 20% or 50% If there was 100% attention of driving there cannot be 10% attention on what tune is playing on the car radio . The tricky part is not remembering being aware at the time when there has been a sense of absence experienced. From my POV, it's the same contextless context. A blood cell intelligently goes wherever it needs to go to fulfill whatever function it must fulfill. A human is exactly like that. The only difference is that THIS, in the form of humans, has evolved an intellect that can simulate reality in the form of images, ideas, and symbols, and can imagine that it is separate from all else. What is it that causes thoughts to arise in the mind? What is it that sees or hears? What is it that directs attention to one thing or another? What is it that drives a car when attention is focused on some conversation from last week? What is it that moves a blood cell wherever it needs to go or digests food? Call it "Source," or "the Unborn," or "What We Are," but THAT is the only doer of whatever is done. Can it be seen that either imagining a context, or imagining more than one context, are both acts of imagination? What we are is unimaginable and beyond the idea of context because what we are is an undivided whole. As there is only what you are then the answer is that . It has to be . Within Individual experience, that what you are is localised to that point of perception . That point of perception that can think . That point of perception that can drive or ride a bike or surf the waves like the princess . Andy and I have spoken about percentages of being focused on something, like driving, but the quandary is that when there has seemingly been an absence of awareness when driving the car it's because there was no immediate memory of it . It doesn't mean to say that on a different level there was . It is like waking up after a nights sleep believing that one has been absent of awareness for 8 hrs . It's simply not true . One is always consciously aware and that includes driving a car not remembering doing that . When I have that experience of not knowing how I drove 10 miles, I don't recall having a memory of being somewhere else or having lots of thoughts running through my mind, enough so to totally blank out my perception of the road . Andy and I were talking about percentages, so that would mean that one was 100% thinking of what one was going to eat for dinner and have no awareness of anything else . |
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Apr 23, 2023 14:45:49 GMT -5
I get you, I'm asking because it's what I might want to know if I didn't already get you. Would you say that knowing the comparison has changed your experience in some regard? Or perhaps the way that you experience? It really is difficult to say in a way . I mean, if you realise that there is life after physical death and a loved one passes over, then you still grieve for them even though you know that they haven't died so to speak . You can't however take back what one has realised . So there is an accumulation of knowings and realisations that are integrated into your perception of life itself . Life itself in reflection of what you are . Knowing that all is what you are and what constitutes a mindful self and not are integrated into oneself . Does one still chop wood thereafter, of course, but the underlying knowings has a part to play in ones overall understandings . Like said, on a practical level, knowing what constitutes a mindful self and what doesn't won't change normal life and day to day activities, it's more to do with an understanding of what you are .. Knowing that everything is what you are has more of an impact I would say in regards to deliberately causing harm to others for example, but it doesn't mean one wouldn't defend themselves if need be . There are so many scenarios at play here I would say . I mean you hear of all these masters that seemingly know all that is and write books on it all, but still behave in a similar fashion at times prior to all those realisations . I appreciate the question, as I had to try and put it into words which was a journey for me in itself . I agree. Trying to explain the value of knowing what you are is difficult using language. One has to discover the truth for oneself to fully appreciate the wonder of it and the simplicity of it. Afterwards, one doesn't cease to be human, but it certainly changes one's understanding of "the Big Picture" and one's way of life. Ted Henry asked me about this during an interview in February, and how I responded has now been posted on his YouTube channel "Souljourns." I think Tyler Mattthew and Norio Kushi also responded in their own way to this same issue during interviews he had with them for Souljourns. |
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Apr 23, 2023 14:46:23 GMT -5
From my POV the value of understanding what you are is incalculable because it eradicates the idea of separation and eliminates the usual kinds of self-centered thinking. When there is sufficiently deep insight into what we are, one feels one-with whatever is happening because one understands that what one IS IS whatever is happening. It's like coming home and relaxing in a comfortable recliner called "Source." This results in a feeling of freedom, peace, effortlessness, and equanimity because all of the imagined false idols (fame, wealth, or attainment of any kind for a false self) are no longer seen as goals to be chased after. What could be better than discovering what we are, knowing what we are, and being what we are? I understand what you are saying .. and it was kinda difficult explaining my take on it to Andy . Awareness of oneself in a way brings peace in relation to what was realised . I mean if one was a devoted seeker of finding self and realised that (for use of a better word) then the search is over . If one had an alien come visit then that would dissolve the thought if life exists elsewhere, but it doesn't really have an impact on day to day life in some respects . How would those resolvements reflect in one going to do the weekly shop or wash the dishes, simply cos one knows that life exists on Mars or that self awareness is mindful . Exactly. |
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Apr 23, 2023 14:56:52 GMT -5
From my POV, it's the same contextless context. A blood cell intelligently goes wherever it needs to go to fulfill whatever function it must fulfill. A human is exactly like that. The only difference is that THIS, in the form of humans, has evolved an intellect that can simulate reality in the form of images, ideas, and symbols, and can imagine that it is separate from all else. What is it that causes thoughts to arise in the mind? What is it that sees or hears? What is it that directs attention to one thing or another? What is it that drives a car when attention is focused on some conversation from last week? What is it that moves a blood cell wherever it needs to go or digests food? Call it "Source," or "the Unborn," or "What We Are," but THAT is the only doer of whatever is done. Can it be seen that either imagining a context, or imagining more than one context, are both acts of imagination? What we are is unimaginable and beyond the idea of context because what we are is an undivided whole. As there is only what you are then the answer is that . It has to be . Within Individual experience, that what you are is localised to that point of perception . That point of perception that can think . That point of perception that can drive or ride a bike or surf the waves like the princess . Andy and I have spoken about percentages of being focused on something, like driving, but the quandary is that when there has seemingly been an absence of awareness when driving the car it's because there was no immediate memory of it . It doesn't mean to say that on a different level there was . It is like waking up after a nights sleep believing that one has been absent of awareness for 8 hrs . It's simply not true . One is always consciously aware and that includes driving a car not remembering doing that . When I have that experience of not knowing how I drove 10 miles, I don't recall having a memory of being somewhere else or having lots of thoughts running through my mind, enough so to totally blank out my perception of the road . Andy and I were talking about percentages, so that would mean that one was 100% thinking of what one was going to eat for dinner and have no awareness of anything else . Yes, no conscious awareness. I ascribe the ability to safely drive while thinking about something else to be a function of subconscious mental processing. What we are can obviously do a million different things at the same time, and to know that that's the case one only has to consider the millions, billions, or trillions of things that are happening each moment that sustain life in the form of a single human being. I'm sure that everyone has had occasions when they were driving along thinking about some issue and suddenly what we are brought attention back to conscious awareness of what was happening due to a potentially dangerous situation. What we are is clearly aware of everything happening that might result in a vehicle collision even when the intellect is ruminating about something one is planning for the future. That's what brings back conscious attention to the highway and what the cars and trucks are doing around us. |
|
|
|
Post by inavalan on Apr 23, 2023 15:13:20 GMT -5
There are so many different, many even opposing opinions about almost everything. It isn't that I dismiss them. I don't care about most of them. Surely, I believe that many are incorrect, but in most cases I have no motivation to argue their (in)validity. .. well you said to me about transcending mind that is my opinion, and you doubt its validity . You believe many opinions are incorrect, so what would constitute a correct opinion bearing in mind everything is based upon a subjective experience? This is why I asked you about the validity of experiencing logging on to the forums or going to the fridge for a beer. So what constitutes a true - real - correct opinion?What's it based on? This discussion took a turn that leads nowhere. Sorry. We won't get anywhere. I believe that there is no "true - real - correct opinion". Everything is subjective and to some degree distorted, including all experiences. Surely I have opinions / beliefs / views, with various degrees of confidence that they're correct, and act on them, but that doesn't mean that I consider them infallible. I don't "blindly" trust any of my experiences, and even less those of others,no matter who they are / were. I just play the game with what I have. |
|
