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Post by sree on Oct 2, 2022 10:43:12 GMT -5
Please explain what spirituality is about? Getting your head out of your butt, ideally. Good luck Metaphorically speaking, our butts are our minds, where our heads are in. It's all one, as Ramakrishna would say.
There is no getting out. Toughing it out is the only option.
"Bodhiharma facing the wall" is my spiritual practice. It's derived from Krishnamurti's teaching. Stillness. Don't move, he said. Watch every impulse to become like Joe Blow taking his hits in a world where Momo wants to die. Don't do it.
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Post by sree on Oct 2, 2022 10:50:03 GMT -5
Problems do not exist out there in the world, all problems exist within ourselves, ~we~ are the problem, that is, the conditioned self. It sounds like you have taken care of the needs of the body, food, shelter and clothes, so the problem is *satisfying* the needs of the conditioned self, your psychology. One of the first things I posted to you, Wherever you go, there you are. So it doesn't matter, a part of society, or not, you carry around your own problems. We are like velcro, there is a mesh side, you, and a hooks side, the world. The conditioned self, the mesh, the lock, is seeking to find something exterior to fulfill it, the hooks side of the velcro, or a key. So nothing has to be given up externally. Loneliness arises from the mesh (without the world-hooks). One can be alone in a crowd and be lonely, one can be alone, apart from people, and can be lonely, or not lonely. The mesh can be altered so that the hooks-world does not attach to it. This is real freedom. Momo had somehow detached from the world, nothing in the world was worth her interest. I'd say that was a failure, she was still living through her conditioned self. The mesh was still there, but could find nothing to 'go after' to bring fulfillment or satisfaction. It seemed Bourdain still needed something exterior to fulfill himself. It seemed he had found the perfect lady, mesh and hooks. But she left, betrayed him in some way. It seems that sree is ~afraid~ of being disappointed in life, so is withdrawing from life. But the conditioned-mesh is still there, it seems, from your own admission. There is a ~place~, ~space~ within, where there is no mesh, nothing for the world to attach to. This is freedom. This would be the key for Momo. This could have been the key for Bourdain. But it's not so easy to *~be that~*, to come to that, to **get there**. But then it doesn't matter, in the world, or separate from the world. Did you see any film of Hurricane Ian? In the eye of a hurricane is a still point, no wind, no storm. Sometimes above is a clear blue sky. Was just in that eye. Took my dogs for a walk. What you say about problems is true, mostly. Hurricane Ian move directly above you? Good alignment. Everyone except you got whacked.
Why do you keep dogs if what stardust said about problems is true to you?
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Post by zazeniac on Oct 2, 2022 11:35:58 GMT -5
Was just in that eye. Took my dogs for a walk. What you say about problems is true, mostly. Hurricane Ian move directly above you? Good alignment. Everyone except you got whacked.
Why do you keep dogs if what stardust said about problems is true to you?
I live where it hit, but opposite coast. At around 8 a.m. looked up the longitude and latitude on wunderground. It was exactly mine. It was calm. No wind or rain. The girls had been cooped up for days, so I walked them. I keep dogs because I love them. Dogs are problems? They have so much love to give. You need to give your mind a rest, dude. |
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Post by sree on Oct 2, 2022 11:37:20 GMT -5
Was just in that eye. Took my dogs for a walk. What you say about problems is true, mostly. , of course. When the problem of self is solved, yes, there are other problems. I see all of life in forces, 3 forces. So when the problem of self is solved, the forces still exist. They have different names, the 3 gunas of the Upanishads is one name. Rajas is first force, active force, positive, in the sense of polarity, initiative, yang. Tamas is second force, the force of opposition or negation, resistance, passive, yin. Sattva is neutralizing force, third force, which breaks the balance between yin and yang, second force and first force. You can't see third force like you can see first force and second force. If you look, you can see that first force always brings second force, always. These are what we call, problems. It's just life. But the three, derive from One, of course. One, unmanifest. Three, manifest. But they exist simultaneously. The problem of self, to you, may not be a problem of self to me. My problem with self is this state of awareness of being a minder of the body. This is as far as I can go in paring down the problems of the self. In a conventional life, the self has more problems living in a social setting in which other selves are tied to you. Living with no psychological relationships with comfort animals (i.e dog, cat, wife, grandfather, gurus, celebrities, etc.) is a load off. Laffy's suggestion to meet people to deal with loneliness would be an advice to a recovering alcoholic to have a few drinks and be happy.
I am developing a relationship with nature. In the mornings, I am with the trees in my garden. The ambience comes from a different culture absent of human energy. Krishnamurti said he could hear the sound of the trees in that quiet when not a leaf is moving. I have not gotten that far yet. The trees are still trees even though their conceptual nature is apparent and they are not perceived as objects of science. |
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Post by sree on Oct 2, 2022 11:48:59 GMT -5
Hurricane Ian move directly above you? Good alignment. Everyone except you got whacked.
Why do you keep dogs if what stardust said about problems is true to you?
I live where it hit, but opposite coast. At around 8 a.m. looked up the longitude and latitude on wunderground. It was exactly mine. It was calm. No wind or rain. The girls had been cooped up for days, so I walked them. I keep dogs because I love them.
Dogs are problems? They have so much love to give. You need to give your mind a rest, dude. No, dogs are not problems at all. As companions and working partners, they are living saints. I would definitely keep dogs is I need them for practical reasons. I am not a farmer. I don't hunt (ducks) anymore. My first dog was a German Shepherd. I kept a couple of Dobermans one time. The last one was a Brussels Griffon. He died in my arms at the vet. Liver cirrhosis.
I am talking about psychological problems. If yours are not working dogs, then you have a problem.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 2, 2022 12:08:00 GMT -5
Yes, of course. When the problem of self is solved, yes, there are other problems. I see all of life in forces, 3 forces. So when the problem of self is solved, the forces still exist. They have different names, the 3 gunas of the Upanishads is one name. Rajas is first force, active force, positive, in the sense of polarity, initiative, yang. Tamas is second force, the force of opposition or negation, resistance, passive, yin. Sattva is neutralizing force, third force, which breaks the balance between yin and yang, second force and first force. You can't see third force like you can see first force and second force. If you look, you can see that first force always brings second force, always. These are what we call, problems. It's just life. But the three, derive from One, of course. One, unmanifest. Three, manifest. But they exist simultaneously. The problem of self, to you, may not be a problem of self to me. My problem with self is this state of awareness of being a minder of the body. This is as far as I can go in paring down the problems of the self. In a conventional life, the self has more problems living in a social setting in which other selves are tied to you. Living with no psychological relationships with comfort animals (i.e dog, cat, wife, grandfather, gurus, celebrities, etc.) is a load off. Laffy's suggestion to meet people to deal with loneliness would be an advice to a recovering alcoholic to have a few drinks and be happy. I am developing a relationship with nature. In the mornings, I am with the trees in my garden. The ambience comes from a different culture absent of human energy. Krishnamurti said he could hear the sound of the trees in that quiet when not a leaf is moving. I have not gotten that far yet. The trees are still trees even though their conceptual nature is apparent and they are not perceived as objects of science. I'm going by what you posted, you said all people live lives with no meaning. You said you are disappointed with life. All includes sree. Those are self-problems. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 2, 2022 12:11:17 GMT -5
Was just in that eye. Took my dogs for a walk. What you say about problems is true, mostly. Hurricane Ian move directly above you? Good alignment. Everyone except you got whacked.
Why do you keep dogs if what stardust said about problems is true to you?
What is it that you think I meant, by describing problems? It's absurd to say that zazeniac has a problem if his dogs are not working dogs. |
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Post by zazeniac on Oct 2, 2022 12:11:43 GMT -5
I live where it hit, but opposite coast. At around 8 a.m. looked up the longitude and latitude on wunderground. It was exactly mine. It was calm. No wind or rain. The girls had been cooped up for days, so I walked them. I keep dogs because I love them.
Dogs are problems? They have so much love to give. You need to give your mind a rest, dude. No, dogs are not problems at all. As companions and working partners, they are living saints. I would definitely keep dogs is I need them for practical reasons. I am not a farmer. I don't hunt (ducks) anymore. My first dog was a German Shepherd. I kept a couple of Dobermans one time. The last one was a Brussels Griffon. He died in my arms at the vet. Liver cirrhosis.
I am talking about psychological problems. If yours are not working dogs, then you have a problem.
Yeah, you're right. They're rescues. One's deaf. She's so sweet. Love's an affliction? I have serious problems. Can you help? Nah, just kidding. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 2, 2022 12:16:48 GMT -5
I have been sitting with this thread and hesitant about wading in. The situation of Momo is central to my spiritual inquiry but no one wants to look into it any other way except as a mental illness. Wanting to die is a symptom but not a disease in itself. As I am writing this, I am eating oat porridge cooked Asian style with an egg, half done and runny, flavored with soya sauce, a dash of crushed malabar pepper, and a sprinkle of chopped scallions. I think fall is already here. Leaves have started turning, a spot of yellow here and there in the green canopies of the ornament trees of my garden. I sit on the deck under a flame maple and a redbud every morning to reflect. It could go on all day, immersed in nature, to look at the toxic human energy from which I cannot escape. Momo, the real one, is nothing like the character in the TV film. I know because I lived in Tokyo, not Japan but Tokyo, months at a time after I drifted away from living in Europe. TV Momo is what one would see behind counters serving you at top department stores, 5-star hotels, and bringing you your chocolates and brandy on a JAL flight back to the states. She is one reason why I never want to see those horrors on American airlines.
Wanting to die, I think, is a worse state than facing execution on Death Row. Not wanting to live is not the same as not wanting to die. I am speculating here. Momo wants to die. How different is this from psychological suicide: ending of the self? We are all seeking that other shore. The only difference between us and Momo is that we want to do it without killing the body.
Do you want to go into this further? |
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Post by sree on Oct 2, 2022 12:30:41 GMT -5
I have been sitting with this thread and hesitant about wading in. The situation of Momo is central to my spiritual inquiry but no one wants to look into it any other way except as a mental illness. Wanting to die is a symptom but not a disease in itself. As I am writing this, I am eating oat porridge cooked Asian style with an egg, half done and runny, flavored with soya sauce, a dash of crushed malabar pepper, and a sprinkle of chopped scallions. I think fall is already here. Leaves have started turning, a spot of yellow here and there in the green canopies of the ornament trees of my garden. I sit on the deck under a flame maple and a redbud every morning to reflect. It could go on all day, immersed in nature, to look at the toxic human energy from which I cannot escape. Momo, the real one, is nothing like the character in the TV film. I know because I lived in Tokyo, not Japan but Tokyo, months at a time after I drifted away from living in Europe. TV Momo is what one would see behind counters serving you at top department stores, 5-star hotels, and bringing you your chocolates and brandy on a JAL flight back to the states. She is one reason why I never want to see those horrors on American airlines.
Wanting to die, I think, is a worse state than facing execution on Death Row. Not wanting to live is not the same as not wanting to die. I am speculating here. Momo wants to die. How different is this from psychological suicide: ending of the self? We are all seeking that other shore. The only difference between us and Momo is that we want to do it without killing the body.
Do you want to go into this further? Absolutely! You are one of the few here who seems invested in self-exploration. Obviously, we are not all coming from the same place, nor are we heading in the same direction. We must not allow our different perspectives and hunches scuttle discourse. |
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Post by sree on Oct 2, 2022 12:48:56 GMT -5
No, dogs are not problems at all. As companions and working partners, they are living saints. I would definitely keep dogs is I need them for practical reasons. I am not a farmer. I don't hunt (ducks) anymore. My first dog was a German Shepherd. I kept a couple of Dobermans one time. The last one was a Brussels Griffon. He died in my arms at the vet. Liver cirrhosis.
I am talking about psychological problems. If yours are not working dogs, then you have a problem.
Yeah, you're right. They're rescues. One's deaf. She's so sweet. Love's an affliction? I have serious problems. Can you help? Nah, just kidding. You ARE kidding, the way a fat woman makes fun of her own chubbiness. She knows she is not right, and laughing it off is a way of asserting that she is ok and the dumbshit who is looking at her is not.
Rescues? Why not put them out of their miseries. Just the other day, I saw a woman walking her dog in a makeshift pram. The dog was in the pram and she was pushing it. And you have a deaf dog. Are you folks suffering from a savior complex? Is that a manifestation of love?
What is love? Shall we go into this?
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Post by zazeniac on Oct 2, 2022 12:58:47 GMT -5
Yeah, you're right. They're rescues. One's deaf. She's so sweet. Love's an affliction? I have serious problems. Can you help? Nah, just kidding. You ARE kidding, the way a fat woman makes fun of her own chubbiness. She knows she is not right, and laughing it off is a way of asserting that she is ok and the dumbshit who is looking at her is not.
Rescues? Why not put them out of their miseries. Just the other day, I saw a woman walking her dog in a makeshift pram. The dog was in the pram and she was pushing it. And you have a deaf dog. Are you folks suffering from a savior complex? Is that a manifestation of love?
What is love? Shall we go into this?
You keep trying. I have to hand it to you. You're dogged. Why I like you. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 2, 2022 13:15:06 GMT -5
Yeah, you're right. They're rescues. One's deaf. She's so sweet. Love's an affliction? I have serious problems. Can you help? Nah, just kidding. You ARE kidding, the way a fat woman makes fun of her own chubbiness. She knows she is not right, and laughing it off is a way of asserting that she is ok and the dumbshit who is looking at her is not.
Rescues? Why not put them out of their miseries. Just the other day, I saw a woman walking her dog in a makeshift pram. The dog was in the pram and she was pushing it. And you have a deaf dog. Are you folks suffering from a savior complex? Is that a manifestation of love?
What is love? Shall we go into this?
So you think love is an affliction? Honestly, if you think love is an affliction, I think I'm done for the 3rd or 4th time. You truly are Samuel Beckett. Do you know EM Cioran? If you don't, get the book On The Heights of Despair. Cioran might be your last hope. Another title, The Trouble With Being Born. Cioran was from Romania (I think it was). His father was an Eastern Orthodox Priest (if memory serves me). He was basically raised to follow in his father's footsteps, he didn't. He moved to Paris and lived there for the rest of his life (if memory serves me). He bled philosophy, he went to the very core of himself. Check him out, he's your man. I'll try to find a quote. If Cioran wasn't a Papagenos (I don't actually remember if he was), he very nearly was. He probably wrote to keep himself from exploding. He had insomnia. He would get on his bicycle and ride the streets of Paris at night to exhaust himself so sleep would come. Yes, you have to get On the Heights of Despair (there's about ten books, most with gut wrenching titles). On the Heights of Despair Quotes. 1. "I don’t understand why we must do things in this world, why we must have friends and aspirations, hopes and dreams. Wouldn’t it be better to retreat to a faraway corner of the world, where all its noise and complications would be heard no more? Then we could renounce culture and ambitions; we would lose everything and gain nothing; for what is there to be gained from this world?" - Emil Cioran, On the Heights of Despair 2. "As far as I am concerned, I resign from humanity. I no longer want to be, nor can still be, a man. What should I do? Work for a social and political system, make a girl miserable? Hunt for weaknesses in philosophical systems, fight for moral and esthetic ideals? It’s all too little. I renounce my humanity even though I may find myself alone. But am I not already alone in this world from which I no longer expect anything?" - Emil Cioran, On the Heights of Despair 3. "Tears do not burn except in solitude." - Emil Cioran, On the Heights of Despair 4. "If I were to be totally sincere, I would say that I do not know why I live and why I do not stop living. The answer probably lies in the irrational character of life which maintains itself without reason." - Emil Cioran, On the Heights of Despair 5. "True confessions are written with tears only. But my tears would drown the world, as my inner fire would reduce it to ashes." - Emil Cioran, On the Heights of Despair 6. "We are so lonely in life that we must ask ourselves if the loneliness of dying is not a symbol of our human existence." - Emil Cioran, On the Heights of Despair 7. "How important can it be that I suffer and think? My presence in this world will disturb a few tranquil lives and will unsettle the unconscious and pleasant naiveté of others. Although I feel that my tragedy is the greatest in history—greater than the fall of empires—I am nevertheless aware of my total insignificance. I am absolutely persuaded that I am nothing in this universe; yet I feel that mine is the only real existence." - Emil Cioran, On the Heights of Despair 8. "No matter which way we go, it is no better than any other. It is all the same whether you achieve something or not, have faith or not, just as it is all the same whether you cry or remain silent." - Emil Cioran, On the Heights of Despair 9. "I cannot contribute anything to this world because I only have one method: agony." - Emil Cioran, On the Heights of Despair 10. "Only those are happy who never think or, rather, who only think about life's bare necessities, and to think about such things means not to think at all. True thinking resembles a demon who muddies the spring of life or a sickness which corrupts its roots. To think all the time, to raise questions, to doubt your own destiny, to feel the weariness of living, to be worn out to the point of exhaustion by thoughts and life, to leave behind you, as symbols of your life's drama, a trail of smoke and blood - all this means you are so unhappy that reflection and thinking appear as a curse causing a violent revulsion in you." - Emil Cioran, On the Heights of Despair I take it back, you are not Samuel Beckett, you are EM Cioran. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 2, 2022 13:33:41 GMT -5
I probably started reading Cioran about 20 years ago. On the Heights of Despair was his first book, and I think his best. I remember pulling it off a Borders Books and Music bookshelf, the title spoke to me. I can usually tell if I'm not interested in a book within 30 seconds. I kept browsing it and even after I knew I was going to buy, kept browsing.
More quotes:
On the Heights of Despair Quotes.
11. "I hate wise men because they are lazy, cowardly, and prudent. To the philosophers' equanimity, which makes them indifferent to both pleasure and pain, I prefer devouring passions. The sage knows neither the tragedy of passion, nor the fear of death, nor risk and enthusiasm, nor barbaric, grotesque, or sublime heroism. He talks in proverbs and gives advice. He does not live, feel, desire, wait for anything. He levels down all the incongruities of life and then suffers the consequences. So much more complex is the man who suffers from limitless anxiety. The wise man's life is empty and sterile, for it is free from contradiction and despair. An existence full of irreconcilable contradictions is so much richer and creative. The wise man's resignation springs from inner void, not inner fire. I would rather die of fire than of void."
- Emil Cioran, On the Heights of Despair
12. "Eu nu am idei ci obsesii. Idei poate avea oricine. Nimeni nu s-a prăbușit din cauza ideilor."
- Emil Cioran, On the Heights of Despair
13. "There are people who are destined to taste only the poison in things, for whom any surprise is a painful surprise and any experience a new occasion for torture. if someone were to say to me that such suffering has subjective reasons, related to the individual's particular makeup, i would then ask; is there an objective criterion for evaluating suffering? who can say with precision that my neighbor suffers more than i do or that jesus suffered more than all of us? there is no objective standard because suffering cannot be measured according to the external stimulation or local irritation of the organism, but only as it is felt and reflected in consciousness. alas, from this point of view, any hierarchy is out of the question. each person remains with his own suffering, which he believes absolute and unlimited. how much would we diminish our own personal suffering if we were to compare it to all the world's sufferings until now, to the most horrifying agonies and the most complicated tortures, the mostcruel deaths and the most painful betrayals, all the lepers, all those burned alive or starved to death? nobody is comforted in his sufferings by the thought that we are all mortals, nor does anybody who suffers really find comfort in the past or present suffering of others. because in this organically insufficient and fragmentary world, the individual is set to live fully, wishing to make of his own existence an absolute."
- Emil Cioran, On the Heights of Despair
14. "I would like to be free, totaly free... free like an aborted child."
- Emil Cioran, On the Heights of Despair
15. "În somn uiți drama vieții tale, uiți complicațiile și obsesiile așa încât fiecare deșteptare este un început nou de viață, este o speranță nouă. Viața păstrează astfel o discontinuitate plăcută care dă impresia unei continue regenerări a unei renașteri permanente."
- Emil Cioran, On the Heights of Despair
16. "The deepest and most organic death is death in solitude, when even light becomes a principle of death. In such moments you will be severed from life, from love, smiles, friends and even from death. And you will ask yourself if there is anything besides the nothingness of the world and your own nothingness."
- Emil Cioran, On the Heights of Despair
17. "How I wish I didn't know anything about myself and this world!"
- Emil Cioran, On the Heights of Despair
18. "Personal imi dau demisia din omenire."
- Emil Cioran, On the Heights of Despair
19. "Nobody would dare look at himself in the mirror, because a grotesque, tragic image would mix in the contours of his face with stains and traces of blood, wounds which cannot be healed, and unstoppable streams of tears. I would experience a kind of voluptuous awe if I could see a volcano of blood, eruptions as red as fire and as burning as despair, burst into the midst of the comfortable and superficial harmony of everyday life, or if I could see all our hidden wounds open, making of us a bloody eruption forever. Only then would we truly understand and appreciate the advantage of loneliness, which silences our suffering and makes it inaccessible. The venom drawn out from suffering would be enough to poison the whole world in a bloody eruption, bursting out of the volcano of our being. There is so much venom, so much poison, in suffering!"
- Emil Cioran, On the Heights of Despair
20. "Nu esti un psiholog bun daca tu insuti nu esti un subiect de studiat daca materialul tau psihic nu ofera zilnic o complexitate si un inedit care sa excite curiozitatea ta continua. Nu te poti initia in misterul altuia daca tu insuti n-ai un mister in care sa te initiezi. Pentru a fi psiholog trebuie sa fii atat de nefericit incat sa pricepi fericirea si atat de rafinat incat sa poti deveni oricand barbar ... Simtul psihologic este expresia unei vieti care se contempla pe sine in fiecare momentu si care in celelalte vieti vede numai oglinzi."
- Emil Cioran, On the Heights of Despair
I will probably keep adding quotes for sree until this website runs out.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 2, 2022 13:46:39 GMT -5
I couldn't remember if I had mentioned Cioran here on ST's before or not. He's not exactly ST's material. But I found one quote, the title On the Heights of Despair comes from the quote. This was way before I had computer skills, so I typed it out from the > book<. Of course, for sree. > Another< mention of Cioran, already wrote about his insomnia. Only these 2 mentions in 13 years. ...But he helped me get through a rough time. 56. "There are experiences which one cannot survive, after which one feels that there is no meaning left in anything. Once you have reached the limits of life, having lived to extremity all that is offered at those dangerous borders, the everyday gesture and the usual aspiration lose their seductive charm. If you go on living, you do so only through your capacity for objectification, your ability to free yourself, in writing, from the infinite strain. Creativity is a temporary salvation from the claws of death" - Emil Cioran, On the Heights of Despair 57. "I feel I must burst because of all that life offers me and because of the prospect of death. I feel that I am dying of solitude, of love, of despair, of hatred, of all that this world offers me. With every experience I expand like a balloon blown up beyond its capacity. The most terrifying intensification bursts into nothingness. You grow inside, you dilate madly until there are no boundaries left, you reach the edge of light, where light is stolen by night, and from that plenitude as in a savage whirlwind you are thrown straight into nothingness. Life breeds both plenitude and void, exuberance and depression. What are we when confronted with the interior vortex which swallows us into absurdity? I feel my life cracking within me from too much intensity, too much disequilibrium. It is like an explosion which cannot be contained, which throws you up in the air along with everything else" - Emil Cioran, On the Heights of Despair There are over 60 quotes. I'll stop here, for now anyway. This particular website. www.aamboli.com/quotes/book/on-the-heights-of-despair/7 Only one quote on this page is in English. Only one on page 8 in English. 75. "I would like to forget everything, to forget myself and to forget the world." - Emil Cioran, On the Heights of Despair |
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