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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 10, 2022 12:56:00 GMT -5
This is a one hour Japanese short film/TV program about considering suicide. NHK World Japan. On from 2:00 PM - 3:00 PM Saturday. (ET) I didn't think to put this up earlier. I watched the second half earlier this morning, very good.
A papagenos is one who struggles with thoughts of suicide but chooses not to die. It's not a documentary. It's scripted, by by someone very familiar with the issue.
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Post by sree on Sept 15, 2022 10:17:40 GMT -5
I have been sitting with this thread and hesitant about wading in. The situation of Momo is central to my spiritual inquiry but no one wants to look into it any other way except as a mental illness. Wanting to die is a symptom but not a disease in itself.
As I am writing this, I am eating oat porridge cooked Asian style with an egg, half done and runny, flavored with soya sauce, a dash of crushed malabar pepper, and a sprinkle of chopped scallions. I think fall is already here. Leaves have started turning, a spot of yellow here and there in the green canopies of the ornament trees of my garden. I sit on the deck under a flame maple and a redbud every morning to reflect. It could go on all day, immersed in nature, to look at the toxic human energy from which I cannot escape.
Momo, the real one, is nothing like the character in the TV film. I know because I lived in Tokyo, not Japan but Tokyo, months at a time after I drifted away from living in Europe. TV Momo is what one would see behind counters serving you at top department stores, 5-star hotels, and bringing you your chocolates and brandy on a JAL flight back to the states. She is one reason why I never want to see those horrors on American airlines.
Wanting to die, I think, is a worse state than facing execution on Death Row. Not wanting to live is not the same as not wanting to die. I am speculating here. Momo wants to die. How different is this from psychological suicide: ending of the self? We are all seeking that other shore. The only difference between us and Momo is that we want to do it without killing the body.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 15, 2022 14:25:13 GMT -5
I read your post sree, just now, 4 hours later. Thanks. I think it's a significant post, I don't know how to reply yet. (But of course I already have, to some extent). It sounds like you watched the program?
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Post by sree on Sept 15, 2022 17:13:49 GMT -5
I read your post sree, just now, 4 hours later. Thanks. I think it's a significant post, I don't know how to reply yet. (But of course I already have, to some extent). It sounds like you watched the program? I watched parts of it here and there. After the first 5 minutes of the film, I got the drift. The film has a message: don't do it.
Why would anyone want to do it? If all conditions are the same, would responses to those conditions be the same also? I think we should examine this together if we are at all concerned about each other's welfare. After all, we are supposed to be super smart, right? Some of us here have been into meditation for years and years. Telling me not to jump when I am heading for the balcony would be too late.
By the way, suicide rate in the US is higher than that for Japan.
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Post by sree on Sept 27, 2022 16:44:44 GMT -5
Just saw the article below today. Anthony Bourdain was an interesting guy. I was a fan after reading his first book (Kitchen Confidentials). I met him in Kuala Lumpur. His suicide impacted me more than the Queen's death. His suicide puzzled me. I didn't realize that he got hurt so badly over his girlfriend. I can understand that kind of hurt over a woman's infidelity. But Bourdain was not a vulnerable teenager suffering a broken heart over his girlfriend being with another guy. pagesix.com/2022/09/27/anthony-bourdain-final-texts-before-death-revealed-in-book/ |
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Post by sree on Sept 27, 2022 21:18:53 GMT -5
Just saw the article below today. Anthony Bourdain was an interesting guy. I was a fan after reading his first book (Kitchen Confidentials). I met him in Kuala Lumpur. His suicide impacted me more than the Queen's death. His suicide puzzled me. I didn't realize that he got hurt so badly over his girlfriend. I can understand that kind of hurt over a woman's infidelity. But Bourdain was not a vulnerable teenager suffering a broken heart over his girlfriend being with another guy. pagesix.com/2022/09/27/anthony-bourdain-final-texts-before-death-revealed-in-book/ Bourdain had fans. He was a personable guy with a ton of charm. Women, many of them, could and would have fallen for him. It was the same with Elvis. And yet, they both came to a dead end. Neither found a viable relationship with another human being. Being alone must be unbearable.
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Post by sree on Sept 28, 2022 11:48:39 GMT -5
Just saw the article below today. Anthony Bourdain was an interesting guy. I was a fan after reading his first book (Kitchen Confidentials). I met him in Kuala Lumpur. His suicide impacted me more than the Queen's death. His suicide puzzled me. I didn't realize that he got hurt so badly over his girlfriend. I can understand that kind of hurt over a woman's infidelity. But Bourdain was not a vulnerable teenager suffering a broken heart over his girlfriend being with another guy. pagesix.com/2022/09/27/anthony-bourdain-final-texts-before-death-revealed-in-book/ Bourdain had fans. He was a personable guy with a ton of charm. Women, many of them, could and would have fallen for him. It was the same with Elvis. And yet, they both came to a dead end. Neither found a viable relationship with another human being. Being alone must be unbearable.
How is it possible to be alone in a world of billions of people? Bourdain said that he was “lonely and living in constant uncertainty”. I can relate with that. It is not a comfortable place to be. The response to that situation is to seek security in a world we know, a world in which Bourdain could find no solace. |
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Post by andrew on Sept 28, 2022 12:38:42 GMT -5
Bourdain had fans. He was a personable guy with a ton of charm. Women, many of them, could and would have fallen for him. It was the same with Elvis. And yet, they both came to a dead end. Neither found a viable relationship with another human being. Being alone must be unbearable.
How is it possible to be alone in a world of billions of people? Bourdain said that he was “lonely and living in constant uncertainty”. I can relate with that. It is not a comfortable place to be. The response to that situation is to seek security in a world we know, a world in which Bourdain could find no solace. There are many possible responses, another response might be to find one's passion and follow that, regardless of the discomfort and uncertainty. Maybe Bourdain got bored, no longer had a sense of growth. The bit I know about Elvis, that applied to him too. He wanted to tour the world, and got stuck in Vegas. Lost his passion for his craft. Sort of reminds me of the lockdowns in the last couple of years, in which so many people expressed a need for 'safety'. I reflected once on the kind of people that are 'daredevils' in their career...big wave surfers for example (a group that holds interest to me). They risk their lives more than most people, but because it's their passion, their joy...it's everything to them....then the risk of worth it. One thing I think lockdowns revealed is how bored people are in general, how dissatisfied they are with their lives, how little they are willing to risk, because there's no payoff. |
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Post by laughter on Sept 28, 2022 14:58:24 GMT -5
Bourdain had fans. He was a personable guy with a ton of charm. Women, many of them, could and would have fallen for him. It was the same with Elvis. And yet, they both came to a dead end. Neither found a viable relationship with another human being. Being alone must be unbearable.
How is it possible to be alone in a world of billions of people? Bourdain said that he was “lonely and living in constant uncertainty”. I can relate with that. It is not a comfortable place to be. The response to that situation is to seek security in a world we know, a world in which Bourdain could find no solace. Can't directly relate 'cause I've been married so long and when we met I was still in college so still had a naturally active social life. But the basis of most relationships I've had since then other than her and family have been transactional. I can imagine that absent any of that, in your situation, finding yourself alone was a sort of path of least resistance. Have you considered what interests you might pursue that might lead to meeting people outside of a transactional rubric? |
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Post by sree on Sept 28, 2022 18:50:36 GMT -5
How is it possible to be alone in a world of billions of people? Bourdain said that he was “lonely and living in constant uncertainty”. I can relate with that. It is not a comfortable place to be. The response to that situation is to seek security in a world we know, a world in which Bourdain could find no solace. Can't directly relate 'cause I've been married so long and when we met I was still in college so still had a naturally active social life. But the basis of most relationships I've had since then other than her and family have been transactional. I can imagine that absent any of that, in your situation, finding yourself alone was a sort of path of least resistance. Have you considered what interests you might pursue that might lead to meeting people outside of a transactional rubric?You are lucky to have a viable family which is the default anchor of the self to a conventional reality. A long stable marriage is the gold standard. There is nothing out there in the void. People like Bourdain, need something more. Why do explorers risk their lives? Sportsmen pushing the edge.
I have no interest in meeting people. I gave up conventional life because it was not for me. Fortunately, I was in a position to do it. I did not have to earn a living. So, why do it? I am not gay. Meeting people would end up being like Bourdain: sleeping around till a twin-flame appears. And then what? Raising a family in an unsettled world would be asking for trouble.
As long as the body is alive, I have to stay out of trouble. This means living a life like Bodhiharma facing the wall. Elvis couldn't do it. Bourdain couldn't either, and they both "went up in flames".
You are in a good place, Laffy. Don't seek.
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Post by sree on Sept 29, 2022 10:29:46 GMT -5
Can't directly relate 'cause I've been married so long and when we met I was still in college so still had a naturally active social life. But the basis of most relationships I've had since then other than her and family have been transactional. I can imagine that absent any of that, in your situation, finding yourself alone was a sort of path of least resistance. Have you considered what interests you might pursue that might lead to meeting people outside of a transactional rubric?You are lucky to have a viable family which is the default anchor of the self to a conventional reality. A long stable marriage is the gold standard. There is nothing out there in the void. People like Bourdain, need something more. Why do explorers risk their lives? Sportsmen pushing the edge.
I have no interest in meeting people. I gave up conventional life because it was not for me. Fortunately, I was in a position to do it. I did not have to earn a living. So, why do it? I am not gay. Meeting people would end up being like Bourdain: sleeping around till a twin-flame appears. And then what? Raising a family in an unsettled world would be asking for trouble.
As long as the body is alive, I have to stay out of trouble. This means living a life like Bodhiharma facing the wall. Elvis couldn't do it. Bourdain couldn't either, and they both "went up in flames".
You are in a good place, Laffy. Don't seek.
Perception is reality even if it doesn’t check out. I never thought it did when I was a kid, no older than 8, peering into the mirror. I looked at my face intently. My gaze was drawn to my eyes, and I instinctively snapped out of it when the sense of being me was not there. I still remember that moment, looking into the holes, the pupils, of my eyes. It frightened me. I get that same eerie feeling whenever I am at the dentist looking at that 3D x-ray of that human jaw with all those teeth stuck in it. Is that me?
Reefs said I have a crisis of identity. I do. I have not figured out what the hell I am yet. Life is a mystery that I can’t figure out. It’s the attempt to figure it out that causes the crisis. I am caught between a rock and a hard place: either accept Laffy’s real world of wife and family or live with a crisis of identity.
Momo wants to die. Don’t we all? Conventional wisdom deems this desire a mental illness. Is it? Bourdain, months before his death at 61, had a ripped physique. Good alignment. He was fully engaged in a successful career as the rock star of the culinary world. Excellent alignment. Are those the signs of psychological impairment? |
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Post by andrew on Sept 29, 2022 11:31:21 GMT -5
You are lucky to have a viable family which is the default anchor of the self to a conventional reality. A long stable marriage is the gold standard. There is nothing out there in the void. People like Bourdain, need something more. Why do explorers risk their lives? Sportsmen pushing the edge.
I have no interest in meeting people. I gave up conventional life because it was not for me. Fortunately, I was in a position to do it. I did not have to earn a living. So, why do it? I am not gay. Meeting people would end up being like Bourdain: sleeping around till a twin-flame appears. And then what? Raising a family in an unsettled world would be asking for trouble. As long as the body is alive, I have to stay out of trouble. This means living a life like Bodhiharma facing the wall. Elvis couldn't do it. Bourdain couldn't either, and they both "went up in flames".
You are in a good place, Laffy. Don't seek.
Perception is reality even if it doesn’t check out. I never thought it did when I was a kid, no older than 8, peering into the mirror. I looked at my face intently. My gaze was drawn to my eyes, and I instinctively snapped out of it when the sense of being me was not there. I still remember that moment, looking into the holes, the pupils, of my eyes. It frightened me. I get that same eerie feeling whenever I am at the dentist looking at that 3D x-ray of that human jaw with all those teeth stuck in it. Is that me? Reefs said I have a crisis of identity. I do. I have not figured out what the hell I am yet. Life is a mystery that I can’t figure out. It’s the attempt to figure it out that causes the crisis. I am caught between a rock and a hard place: either accept Laffy’s real world of wife and family or live with a crisis of identity. Momo wants to die. Don’t we all? Conventional wisdom deems this desire a mental illness. Is it? Bourdain, months before his death at 61, had a ripped physique. Good alignment. He was fully engaged in a successful career as the rock star of the culinary world. Excellent alignment. Are those the signs of psychological impairment? This might run a small bit counter to the forum (even though I am generally aligned to the collective view here on identity), but perhaps it's not that relevant i.e perhaps what is relevant is just that we enjoy what we are doing and that it is matters to us in some way. Although I believe in the value of spiritual practice, I also think practice can only take us 'so far', at which point it's better to get the hell on with life, and let the spiritual stuff take care of itself. I reckon go and fall in love with a woman (or a man, if that's your thing). Of if that action is a bit slow, then fall in love with a animal. Animals are generally much easier to love than people I find (my immediate family excepted...just about  ) |
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Post by sree on Sept 29, 2022 12:31:56 GMT -5
Perception is reality even if it doesn’t check out. I never thought it did when I was a kid, no older than 8, peering into the mirror. I looked at my face intently. My gaze was drawn to my eyes, and I instinctively snapped out of it when the sense of being me was not there. I still remember that moment, looking into the holes, the pupils, of my eyes. It frightened me. I get that same eerie feeling whenever I am at the dentist looking at that 3D x-ray of that human jaw with all those teeth stuck in it. Is that me? Reefs said I have a crisis of identity. I do. I have not figured out what the hell I am yet. Life is a mystery that I can’t figure out. It’s the attempt to figure it out that causes the crisis. I am caught between a rock and a hard place: either accept Laffy’s real world of wife and family or live with a crisis of identity. Momo wants to die. Don’t we all? Conventional wisdom deems this desire a mental illness. Is it? Bourdain, months before his death at 61, had a ripped physique. Good alignment. He was fully engaged in a successful career as the rock star of the culinary world. Excellent alignment. Are those the signs of psychological impairment?
This might run a small bit counter to the forum (even though I am generally aligned to the collective view here on identity), but perhaps it's not that relevant i.e perhaps what is relevant is just that we enjoy what we are doing and that it is matters to us in some way. Although I believe in the value of spiritual practice, I also think practice can only take us 'so far', at which point it's better to get the hell on with life, and let the spiritual stuff take care of itself. I reckon go and fall in love with a woman (or a man, if that's your thing). Of if that action is a bit slow, then fall in love with a animal. Animals are generally much easier to love than people I find (my immediate family excepted...just about ) Quite right. I think the spiritual stuff is in life itself in the real world when it is going well. Being content with your lot is all that counts be it having a good partner or making a million bucks on a good bet. It's when things don't go well (depression) or a probability of not going well (anxiety), that we look for that other shore devoid of all bad stuff (nonduality).
Bourdain was not into spirituality. He put all his eggs in one basket on this shore, so to speak. And when the bough broke, he fell. Elvis had a typical Christian background and was seeking a spiritual escape route from his pain. He probably lacked the IQ that you and folks here have. I don't mean that he was stupid. It's a matter of taste, and all the mentation that goes on here has no "sex appeal". Elvis had primal energy. Steve Jobs had primal energy also, and he too was into spirituality. Jobs was no lightweight when he checked out nonduality. He gave it a pass and moved on.
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Post by sree on Sept 29, 2022 16:38:25 GMT -5
You are lucky to have a viable family which is the default anchor of the self to a conventional reality. A long stable marriage is the gold standard. There is nothing out there in the void. People like Bourdain, need something more. Why do explorers risk their lives? Sportsmen pushing the edge.
I have no interest in meeting people. I gave up conventional life because it was not for me. Fortunately, I was in a position to do it. I did not have to earn a living. So, why do it? I am not gay. Meeting people would end up being like Bourdain: sleeping around till a twin-flame appears. And then what? Raising a family in an unsettled world would be asking for trouble.
As long as the body is alive, I have to stay out of trouble. This means living a life like Bodhiharma facing the wall. Elvis couldn't do it. Bourdain couldn't either, and they both "went up in flames".
You are in a good place, Laffy. Don't seek.
Perception is reality even if it doesn’t check out. I never thought it did when I was a kid, no older than 8, peering into the mirror. I looked at my face intently. My gaze was drawn to my eyes, and I instinctively snapped out of it when the sense of being me was not there. I still remember that moment, looking into the holes, the pupils, of my eyes. It frightened me. I get that same eerie feeling whenever I am at the dentist looking at that 3D x-ray of that human jaw with all those teeth stuck in it. Is that me?
Reefs said I have a crisis of identity. I do. I have not figured out what the hell I am yet. Life is a mystery that I can’t figure out. It’s the attempt to figure it out that causes the crisis. I am caught between a rock and a hard place: either accept Laffy’s real world of wife and family or live with a crisis of identity.
Momo wants to die. Don’t we all? Conventional wisdom deems this desire a mental illness. Is it? Bourdain, months before his death at 61, had a ripped physique. Good alignment. He was fully engaged in a successful career as the rock star of the culinary world. Excellent alignment. Are those the signs of psychological impairment? Bourdain was vulnerable; like a boat in the stormy sea of life. He was free to battle the elements. Momo was not vulnerable. Most of us are Momos, farmed animals, securely corralled and caged, for labor and slaughter. Momo wants to die.
There isn’t a day that goes by that I don’t get a feeling that it’s great to be alive. It has nothing to do with being successful, being loved, or in the midst of having a good time. It is a sudden elation brought on by something nice. It could be the sight of the grey block paving beneath the green canopy of the red bud tree in my garden evoking the al fresco setting of an osteria in Rome. Memory? Can spiritual ecstasy be a thing of mind?
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Post by laughter on Sept 30, 2022 9:10:05 GMT -5
Can't directly relate 'cause I've been married so long and when we met I was still in college so still had a naturally active social life. But the basis of most relationships I've had since then other than her and family have been transactional. I can imagine that absent any of that, in your situation, finding yourself alone was a sort of path of least resistance. Have you considered what interests you might pursue that might lead to meeting people outside of a transactional rubric?You are lucky to have a viable family which is the default anchor of the self to a conventional reality. A long stable marriage is the gold standard. There is nothing out there in the void. People like Bourdain, need something more. Why do explorers risk their lives? Sportsmen pushing the edge.
I have no interest in meeting people. I gave up conventional life because it was not for me. Fortunately, I was in a position to do it. I did not have to earn a living. So, why do it? I am not gay. Meeting people would end up being like Bourdain: sleeping around till a twin-flame appears. And then what? Raising a family in an unsettled world would be asking for trouble. As long as the body is alive, I have to stay out of trouble. This means living a life like Bodhiharma facing the wall. Elvis couldn't do it. Bourdain couldn't either, and they both "went up in flames".
You are in a good place, Laffy. Don't seek.
Yes, I'm quite aware of my good fortune. All this spiritual culture helped me get in touch with what can be expressed - but only as a sort of shadow - as gratitude. Also, the old adage .. "God protects fools". As for you, I'd just like to point out that you wrote that you could relate to Bourdain, his "lonely and living in constant uncertainty". Can you see how what you've expressed to me here has led you to that loneliness? Is that the way you want it to be? Please don't take this as some sort of attack. I'm just honestly responding to what you're expressing. |
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