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Post by zazeniac on Jul 20, 2022 13:27:35 GMT -5
the seeker can have this direct experience but it isn't permanent. When it becomes the natural choiceless state, it is Sahaja. And it is is the end of practice since no practices could result in bringing you to where you already are. To say that awareness is both subject and object is the best attempt to describe it conceptually. Ah, you made my point. Until it is permanent, regardless of conclusions. What I see often are conclusions without experience. And I see quite a lot of tail-chasing, pettiness, by folks who have concluded exactly what you say or other ideas. Who club you on the head with their ideas. If the mind is still agitated, grasping, there is no peace. They blame the world for their misery. I apologize for my strident tone, a triple shot of espresso, the real cause of war. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2022 20:20:56 GMT -5
the seeker can have this direct experience but it isn't permanent. When it becomes the natural choiceless state, it is Sahaja. And it is is the end of practice since no practices could result in bringing you to where you already are. To say that awareness is both subject and object is the best attempt to describe it conceptually. Ah, you made my point. Until it is permanent, regardless of conclusions. What I see often are conclusions without experience. And I see quite a lot of tail-chasing, pettiness, by folks who have concluded exactly what you say or other ideas. Who club you on the head with their ideas. If the mind is still agitated, grasping, there is no peace. They blame the world for their misery. you were right to point out my use of the word conclude which usually means you get to a intellectual resolution or outcome after considering some ideas and concepts. On reflection I should have used the word recognition instead. There is a recognition that consciousness is what I am but I can also reflect on it as something objectified. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2022 20:26:01 GMT -5
Ah, you made my point. Until it is permanent, regardless of conclusions. What I see often are conclusions without experience. And I see quite a lot of tail-chasing, pettiness, by folks who have concluded exactly what you say or other ideas. Who club you on the head with their ideas. If the mind is still agitated, grasping, there is no peace. They blame the world for their misery. I apologize for my strident tone, a triple shot of espresso, the real cause of war. No worries. I didn't take it like that at all. You know me, I like straight talking. As I read this I'm just settling down with a large coffee. I'm not really a short coffee expresso type myself. I prefer long coffees, americano style. |
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Post by tenka on Jul 22, 2022 13:41:20 GMT -5
Come on all you Self realised Folks  What is it that you have realised Consciousness to be? What does this reflect in all things manifest and unmanifest? Explain how what you are transcended mind and self and then had this grand realisation that you are Consciousness . what does this have to do with the self-realized? Go and ask anyone in the street if they're conscious or aware. Well the way peeps bang on about Consciousness, I wuda thought that one has realised it in order say what they say .. |
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Post by tenka on Jul 22, 2022 13:48:33 GMT -5
Hey tenka, I have realized consciousness to be me as sree and tenka and all the Self realized folks here. Hey sree - Nice to meet you What does that mean eggsactly? What is me? What is sree? are you alluding to dream characters or something more substantial? |
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Post by tenka on Jul 22, 2022 13:55:14 GMT -5
Come on all you Self realised Folks What is it that you have realised Consciousness to be? What does this reflect in all things manifest and unmanifest? Explain how what you are transcended mind and self and then had this grand realisation that you are Consciousness . what does this have to do with the self-realized? Go and ask anyone in the street if they're conscious or aware.So are you possibly suggesting that everything that is conscious and aware is consciousness? You don't know if your cat is aware or not, so who would you know that is conscious and aware that you could ask . Is it a koan? |
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Post by tenka on Jul 22, 2022 14:11:24 GMT -5
The interesting thing about consciousness is that upon close examination the subject/object paradigm does not work. Because without a subject, there are no objects and when you look for the subject, you can't find it. If I ask you to show me the perceiver, you can't. Whatever you show me, something is perceiving what you call the perceiver. The perceiver is a whole lot of nothing. But this is all interesting trivia, not related in the least to the nitty-gritty of life. Mind strutting. Even with that or any other interesting pointer, most folks still chase their tail. Cause even if you realize it's your tail, the compulsion to chase it persists, its locked in. So you invent sh$t, to convince yourself you're not and everyone else is which is proof that you still are. Haha. Happy tail-chasing! It's all about self awareness isn't it . What one makes of consciousness can only be concluded via self awareness . Subject, objects, perceiver, perceived are only referred to based upon self awareness . Beyond self awareness there are no relations to be made . In my eyes that reflects that consciousness is only of the mind where self has relations . You can't prise apart anything from anything in regards to what we are, same goes for mind and consciousness .. Whatever that is (realised or not) |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2022 23:48:41 GMT -5
what does this have to do with the self-realized? Go and ask anyone in the street if they're conscious or aware.So are you possibly suggesting that everything that is conscious and aware is consciousness? You don't know if your cat is aware or not, so who would you know that is conscious and aware that you could ask . Is it a koan? why don't you just ask someone if they are conscious, aware, sentient? It's that simple. No need for koans. |
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Post by tenka on Jul 23, 2022 7:18:48 GMT -5
So are you possibly suggesting that everything that is conscious and aware is consciousness? You don't know if your cat is aware or not, so who would you know that is conscious and aware that you could ask . Is it a koan? why don't you just ask someone if they are conscious, aware, sentient? It's that simple. No need for koans. So there is the realisation that there is only what you are for argument sakes . Then one thereafter doesn't know intuitively or inherently again, for arguments sake that the wife or the cat is a perceiver or not . So the answer would be simply to ask them if they are perceiving or not or conscious or not . I would of thought that if one marries the wife and has kids, feeds the meowing cat, then one has already made their mind up . Perhaps this is where Gopal has being going wrong all this time . He adores you, so perhaps he should listen to your words and ask his wife if she is a real perceiver or not . Maybe that will solve his dilemma despite having realised Self . |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2022 7:38:25 GMT -5
why don't you just ask someone if they are conscious, aware, sentient? It's that simple. No need for koans. So there is the realisation that there is only what you are for argument sakes . Then one thereafter doesn't know intuitively or inherently again, for arguments sake that the wife or the cat is a perceiver or not . So the answer would be simply to ask them if they are perceiving or not or conscious or not . I would of thought that if one marries the wife and has kids, feeds the meowing cat, then one has already made their mind up . Perhaps this is where Gopal has being going wrong all this time . He adores you, so perhaps he should listen to your words and ask his wife if she is a real perceiver or not . Maybe that will solve his dilemma despite having realised Self . I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here. I suggested you ask someone if they're conscious or aware because I assumed they would say yes because they are. |
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Post by tenka on Jul 23, 2022 7:45:04 GMT -5
So there is the realisation that there is only what you are for argument sakes . Then one thereafter doesn't know intuitively or inherently again, for arguments sake that the wife or the cat is a perceiver or not . So the answer would be simply to ask them if they are perceiving or not or conscious or not . I would of thought that if one marries the wife and has kids, feeds the meowing cat, then one has already made their mind up . Perhaps this is where Gopal has being going wrong all this time . He adores you, so perhaps he should listen to your words and ask his wife if she is a real perceiver or not . Maybe that will solve his dilemma despite having realised Self . I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here. I suggested you ask someone if they're conscious or aware because I assumed they would say yes because they are. I am basically trying to understand your train of thought regarding all of this this stuff said over the past few weeks or so . So if your wife said she was a real consciously aware peep then that would end your query? What if she said no I am not, but do you want a cold beer anyway .. In Gopal Land and ND Bot land the wife could be seen as just an appearance that pretends they are perceiving .. That is why I asked you before if you knew of an appearance that could have a baby that wasn't a real perceiver . I didn't get an answer . So you see, when I hear peeps talk in certain ways about reality I am drawn to ask a string of questions that reveals where they are coming from and for reasons why . All I have at the moment is you declaring you don't know if other's are perceiving or consciously aware, but all one has to do is ask them . |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2022 7:57:24 GMT -5
I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here. I suggested you ask someone if they're conscious or aware because I assumed they would say yes because they are. I am basically trying to understand your train of thought regarding all of this this stuff said over the past few weeks or so . So if your wife said she was a real consciously aware peep then that would end your query? What if she said no I am not, but do you want a cold beer anyway .. In Gopal Land and ND Bot land the wife could be seen as just an appearance that pretends they are perceiving .. That is why I asked you before if you knew of an appearance that could have a baby that wasn't a real perceiver . I didn't get an answer . So you see, when I hear peeps talk in certain ways about reality I am drawn to ask a string of questions that reveals where they are coming from and for reasons why . All I have at the moment is you declaring you don't know if other's are perceiving or consciously aware, but all one has to do is ask them . I've said several times that I assume others are sentient perceivers. |
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Post by tenka on Jul 23, 2022 8:00:38 GMT -5
I am basically trying to understand your train of thought regarding all of this this stuff said over the past few weeks or so . So if your wife said she was a real consciously aware peep then that would end your query? What if she said no I am not, but do you want a cold beer anyway .. In Gopal Land and ND Bot land the wife could be seen as just an appearance that pretends they are perceiving .. That is why I asked you before if you knew of an appearance that could have a baby that wasn't a real perceiver . I didn't get an answer . So you see, when I hear peeps talk in certain ways about reality I am drawn to ask a string of questions that reveals where they are coming from and for reasons why . All I have at the moment is you declaring you don't know if other's are perceiving or consciously aware, but all one has to do is ask them . I've said several times that I assume others are sentient perceivers. Butt if you asked them and they said they were, there would be no more assumptions? For the record E said that he guesses Marie is a real perceiver . Gopal believes his wife is a real perceiver butt still doesn't know . |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2022 8:03:48 GMT -5
I've said several times that I assume others are sentient perceivers. Butt if you asked them and they said they were, there would be no more assumptions? For the record E said that he guesses Marie is a real perceiver . Gopal believes his wife is a real perceiver butt still doesn't know . I don't think you are ever going to understand this. I'll have one more go. I know that I am conscious but I do not have the same direct evidence that someone else is conscious because I cannot get into their mind. |
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Post by tenka on Jul 23, 2022 8:04:09 GMT -5
Satch what if your wife said no I am not a real perceiver, but do you want a cold beer anyway ..
What would you think?
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