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Post by someNOTHING! on Jul 26, 2022 13:31:36 GMT -5
saw this on twitter this morning and thought it was pretty cool. it's called digital art I guess. Sound off? What a snob!  Sure it would be rather low on our personal playlists.. but it would be on the master playlist somewhere.. and who are we to judge? expand your horizons!  It is pretty dang cool. I am the ruler of my own crap music selection, so I'z got options.  But you need help, man.  |
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Post by laughter on Jul 26, 2022 19:18:13 GMT -5
Because you're using it to pretend as if it tells you something you can know. I have been clear about my POV for probably at least 10 years here. I think I understand somewhat your ontology. So just trying to clarify. There is nothing, for you, beyond the quantum "gap"? There is-only chaos? So for you the Implicate order is nonsense. Is that a fair assessment? Not a problem, a very few here consider reality is a "three-layer-cake". ouroboros is on to something, there about 3/4 of the iceberg hidden, the unmanifest. But it IS. The Bible says God dwells in unapproachable light. Do you know of the "mystical" writing the could of unknowing? I'm sure you are familiar with apophatic unknowing. All I think/know/surmise is that the quantum world is an opaque window (now we see through a window darkly), but 'on-the-other-side' is Consciousness and Originating Intelligence (the Implicate Order). If it were not so we might as well have material realism, and Darwinism. I don't know anything. I don't know anything. But I know I don't know anything. But I know there is a trail that crosses the quantum gap (metaphorically). There is a vast Intelligence, sdp does not accept that all-of-It is beyond knowing. If I am banging my head against an impenetrable existential wall, why does that bother you? I basically only write by metaphor and analogy and indirection. I can't help it if you sometimes read more into it than I wrote. Thusly, I know that transmission is outside the scriptures. I doubt we will ever see out of the same window. I can't help that. And yes, I point to a something else that it seems few see. Would you have me not-do-that? It's a free forum. It's not my problem if people are not interested. There is always further. simply doesn't comport with your content. Look, in relative terms, we're both relatively learned in certain topics which leads us into these dialogs. But that relative knowledge about these models of what we perceive has no ultimate value in terms of "defining existence", because existence, "Consciousness", "SOCI" or whatever you want to call it or what your mind believes to be the most important facets of it cannot be defined. That's the true meaning of knowing that you know nothing. The only value Physics has for self-inquiry is the potential some of these results offer you to stop looking to Physics as being of any value in the pursuit. And it has potential depth, this not-knowing. Anytime you notice the mind reaching for an explanation, there is some measure of falsity involved. My interest in QM lies in how it can be interpreted as a sort of anti-knowledge. It negates the assumption of objective reality, and if you refrain from reaching for some alternative explanation, you can rest, for just that moment, in a genuine absence of knowing. Don't worry, all this mind stuff will be here later. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 26, 2022 20:04:19 GMT -5
I have been clear about my POV for probably at least 10 years here. I think I understand somewhat your ontology. So just trying to clarify. There is nothing, for you, beyond the quantum "gap"? There is-only chaos? So for you the Implicate order is nonsense. Is that a fair assessment? Not a problem, a very few here consider reality is a "three-layer-cake". ouroboros is on to something, there about 3/4 of the iceberg hidden, the unmanifest. But it IS. The Bible says God dwells in unapproachable light. Do you know of the "mystical" writing the could of unknowing? I'm sure you are familiar with apophatic unknowing. All I think/know/surmise is that the quantum world is an opaque window (now we see through a window darkly), but 'on-the-other-side' is Consciousness and Originating Intelligence (the Implicate Order). If it were not so we might as well have material realism, and Darwinism. I don't know anything. I don't know anything. But I know I don't know anything. But I know there is a trail that crosses the quantum gap (metaphorically). There is a vast Intelligence, sdp does not accept that all-of-It is beyond knowing. If I am banging my head against an impenetrable existential wall, why does that bother you? I basically only write by metaphor and analogy and indirection. I can't help it if you sometimes read more into it than I wrote. Thusly, I know that transmission is outside the scriptures. I doubt we will ever see out of the same window. I can't help that. And yes, I point to a something else that it seems few see. Would you have me not-do-that? It's a free forum. It's not my problem if people are not interested. There is always further. simply doesn't comport with your content. Look, in relative terms, we're both relatively learned in certain topics which leads us into these dialogs. But that relative knowledge about these models of what we perceive has no ultimate value in terms of "defining existence", because existence, "Consciousness", "SOCI" or whatever you want to call it or what your mind believes to be the most important facets of it cannot be defined. That's the true meaning of knowing that you know nothing. The only value Physics has for self-inquiry is the potential some of these results offer you to stop looking to Physics as being of any value in the pursuit. And it has potential depth, this not-knowing. Anytime you notice the mind reaching for an explanation, there is some measure of falsity involved. My interest in QM lies in how it can be interpreted as a sort of anti-knowledge. It negates the assumption of objective reality, and if you refrain from reaching for some alternative explanation, you can rest, for just that moment, in a genuine absence of knowing. Don't worry, all this mind stuff will be here later. I don't equate QM with the (invisible) journey, they are separate domains, I'm not sure one can inform the other. The quantum domain is a kind of window, that's all I willing to say that has any significance (for me), concerning the invisible journey. I just like studying physics, period. As far as the unknown. I chose a label, pragmatic existentialist. There are certain things you, laughter, know. Correct? All I'm interested in is expanding the boundary of ~what sdp knows~. That's me in a nutshell. When I say I know I know nothing, that's pretty honest, relatively. But what I know, I know, and nothing can shake me from that, nothing, nobody. IOW, I know what's map and what's territory, and the means to move from one to the other. IOW, I'm only interested in expanding from the known, into the unknown, making that known, repeat. I know all maps are not trash. zd stated, exactly, in public, some things I say irritate him (the problem I have with you is bla, bla, bla. That's pretty close to a quote, not the bla, bla, bla part, I remember what he wrote). But that's not my problem. I don't know why I irritate you. But likewise, that's not my problem. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2022 1:40:03 GMT -5
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Post by tenka on Jul 27, 2022 5:48:54 GMT -5
No worries, it looks like you wear your heart on your sleeve . I am an easy going guy believe or not, but I don't stand for BS or any nonsense . Perhaps a little like yourself . I am not trying to trip you up or anything, My thread was an open question regarding what is Consciousness . Like said Consciousness isn't realised . It's just a word to refer to something or other, but in these circles it used as a trump card when no one really knows fcuk all about it . I understand that you and I are experiencing what we are within a physical environment . There is both self awareness and being self conscious . Peeps can call that Consciousness, but like said, it means nuffin to me to describe it as that . Some say all is Consciousness and then mix being conscious as that, and then throw in awareness as what we are also, and then swap them around when it suits . What we are is both conscious and aware . In my eyes there is no need to wrap that up into little Consciousness parcels and then say we are that and we arise in or of that . I like your line of questioning. It does cut out the BS. And when it does, peeps get annoyed.
Consciousness is a mystery. It has created a world and it has created me. Since we both don't care for BS, why don't you deal with me. I have been delving into this shit and dug out much to investigate with another pair of critical eyes. Some of the stuff will blow your mind. What do you say?
Stop wasting your time with peeps who need to wallow in BS. Let them be. They need it because they cannot handle the truth.
It's always been that way with certain peeps. You get to know something about other's not only by what they say butt by how they say it . If they are true to their realisations then they would be able to answer without effort and without ridicule or deflection. I am seeing jack Nicholson in the video clip and imagining you with your gun Kinda crazy hey? Any similarities I should know about? |
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Post by tenka on Jul 27, 2022 5:53:12 GMT -5
Come on all you Self realised Folks What is it that you have realised Consciousness to be? What does this reflect in all things manifest and unmanifest? Explain how what you are transcended mind and self and then had this grand realisation that you are Consciousness . Apparently "Consciousness" is a funny idea for you to sneer at.  I am questioning all those that speak about it with some kind of authority . I can speak about this kinda stuff without ever using the word . You see when peeps speak about reality and the nature of appearances and use Consciousness, it doesn't mean anything to me, especially when appearances just arise from out of it too . Perhaps you could put my mind at rest and tell me what you have realised Consciousness to be . So far there hasn't been many takers . |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2022 6:49:47 GMT -5
Apparently "Consciousness" is a funny idea for you to sneer at. I am questioning all those that speak about it with some kind of authority . I can speak about this kinda stuff without ever using the word . You see when peeps speak about reality and the nature of appearances and use Consciousness, it doesn't mean anything to me, especially when appearances just arise from out of it too . Perhaps you could put my mind at rest and tell me what you have realised Consciousness to be . So far there hasn't been many takers . Do you know what consciousness is? If so let's hear it. Here's some help www.thesaurus.com/browse/consciousness |
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Post by laughter on Jul 27, 2022 7:26:03 GMT -5
That simply doesn't comport with your content. Look, in relative terms, we're both relatively learned in certain topics which leads us into these dialogs. But that relative knowledge about these models of what we perceive has no ultimate value in terms of "defining existence", because existence, "Consciousness", "SOCI" or whatever you want to call it or what your mind believes to be the most important facets of it cannot be defined. That's the true meaning of knowing that you know nothing. The only value Physics has for self-inquiry is the potential some of these results offer you to stop looking to Physics as being of any value in the pursuit. And it has potential depth, this not-knowing. Anytime you notice the mind reaching for an explanation, there is some measure of falsity involved. My interest in QM lies in how it can be interpreted as a sort of anti-knowledge. It negates the assumption of objective reality, and if you refrain from reaching for some alternative explanation, you can rest, for just that moment, in a genuine absence of knowing. Don't worry, all this mind stuff will be here later. , I'm not sure one can inform the other. The quantum domain is a kind of window, that's all I willing to say that has any significance (for me), concerning the invisible journey. I just like studying physics, period. As far as the unknown. I chose a label, pragmatic existentialist. There are certain things you, laughter, know. Correct? All I'm interested in is expanding the boundary of ~what sdp knows~. That's me in a nutshell. When I say I know I know nothing, that's pretty honest, relatively. But what I know, I know, and nothing can shake me from that, nothing, nobody. IOW, I know what's map and what's territory, and the means to move from one to the other. IOW, I'm only interested in expanding from the known, into the unknown, making that known, repeat. I know all maps are not trash. zd stated, exactly, in public, some things I say irritate him (the problem I have with you is bla, bla, bla. That's pretty close to a quote, not the bla, bla, bla part, I remember what he wrote). But that's not my problem. I don't know why I irritate you. But likewise, that's not my problem. Any "irritation" as to this dialog is quite mild, I assure you. Especially since it's a re-hash of the same discussion we've had many times before. Get present to what you're projecting.  It's been explained to you many times that existential "knowledge" is actually an absence, a falling away. You don't gain anything in the realizations that can end the seeking, you actually lose the impetus to associate this relative knowledge with what you've realized. Among other things. I know you don't accept that, but it is what it is, and I'm not going to lie to you about it, nor remain silent in this instance. Yes, I think I know what I know about physics as I've discussed it with you in this dialog, but that is relative knowledge about the world of form. I'm not faulting you for that, and it can sometimes be fun bantering with you on the topic. I certainly understand the interest. But it is relative knowledge about what comes and goes. I find what you write now to be self-contradictory to what you wrote here: I know there is a trail that crosses the quantum gap (metaphorically). QM is not a window into the existential unkonwn. It's a window on a wall of an old apartment building that sold the air rights to the developer next door almost a hundred years ago now. As for the trail, do you remember the dream ZD described in Pouring Concrete? The one where he followed tracks (can't remember, might have been train tracks or not) .. he followed them out into a field where they just sort of faded away into the grass or the landscape. Do you remember reading that? |
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Post by laughter on Jul 27, 2022 7:29:17 GMT -5
Apparently "Consciousness" is a funny idea for you to sneer at. I am questioning all those that speak about it with some kind of authority . I can speak about this kinda stuff without ever using the word . You see when peeps speak about reality and the nature of appearances and use Consciousness, it doesn't mean anything to me, especially when appearances just arise from out of it too . Perhaps you could put my mind at rest and tell me what you have realised Consciousness to be . So far there hasn't been many takers . I've got no interest in responding to your question with any sincerity because I find the source of the question to be devoid of sincere curiosity. No hard feelings btw, and I would hope the same from you, I'm just being honest. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 27, 2022 8:19:09 GMT -5
I don't equate QM with the (invisible) journey, they are separate domains, I'm not sure one can inform the other. The quantum domain is a kind of window, that's all I willing to say that has any significance (for me), concerning the invisible journey. I just like studying physics, period. As far as the unknown. I chose a label, pragmatic existentialist. There are certain things you, laughter, know. Correct? All I'm interested in is expanding the boundary of ~what sdp knows~. That's me in a nutshell. When I say I know I know nothing, that's pretty honest, relatively. But what I know, I know, and nothing can shake me from that, nothing, nobody. IOW, I know what's map and what's territory, and the means to move from one to the other. IOW, I'm only interested in expanding from the known, into the unknown, making that known, repeat. I know all maps are not trash. zd stated, exactly, in public, some things I say irritate him (the problem I have with you is bla, bla, bla. That's pretty close to a quote, not the bla, bla, bla part, I remember what he wrote). But that's not my problem. I don't know why I irritate you. But likewise, that's not my problem. Any "irritation" as to this dialog is quite mild, I assure you. Especially since it's a re-hash of the same discussion we've had many times before. Get present to what you're projecting. It's been explained to you many times that existential "knowledge" is actually an absence, a falling away. You don't gain anything in the realizations that can end the seeking, you actually lose the impetus to associate this relative knowledge with what you've realized. Among other things. I know you don't accept that, but it is what it is, and I'm not going to lie to you about it, nor remain silent in this instance. Yes, I think I know what I know about physics as I've discussed it with you in this dialog, but that is relative knowledge about the world of form. I'm not faulting you for that, and it can sometimes be fun bantering with you on the topic. I certainly understand the interest. But it is relative knowledge about what comes and goes. I find what you write now to be self-contradictory to what you wrote here: I know there is a trail that crosses the quantum gap (metaphorically). QM is not a window into the existential unkonwn. It's a window on a wall of an old apartment building that sold the air rights to the developer next door almost a hundred years ago now. As for the trail, do you remember the dream ZD described in Pouring Concrete? The one where he followed tracks (can't remember, might have been train tracks or not) .. he followed them out into a field where they just sort of faded away into the grass or the landscape. Do you remember reading that? First, my journey is an existential journey, I think I've been pretty clear on this. I've said my journey is about blood, sweat and tears. For me, seeing through self, the illusion of self, the cultural self/small s self, is the beginning, it's just the first rung of the ladder. In the words of Simone Weil, then decreation begins (Gravity and Grace), in the words of Thomas Keating, dismantling begins (Invitation To Love, this in relation to the Desert Fathers, and Mothers). I'm about understanding, not realizations. You are right, I don't accept that, for me. It does not compute, for me (Not that it doesn't compute, I just think what you-all [ND] think is the end of the journey is just the beginning of the journey. I've told zd about 15 times, in public conversation, there's more, but I leave it there because that's all that can be said, on this end). I have no problem with anyone else's journey or not-journey or end of journey or ND not-journey. I know ~you all~ think I'm walking out to the desert-mirage with my canteen. But what you (plural) think of me is none of my business (unless anyone wants to engage). I read Pouring Concrete a long time ago, I don't remember the dream. (And I owe zd, as I bought it used). Lastly, what don't you get about the word (metaphorically)? |
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Post by zazeniac on Jul 27, 2022 8:39:40 GMT -5
You can't know others perceive because you can't get into their head. But you know you perceive, so you the perceiver must exist. But not what is perceived. So according to this thinking what can be known is pivotal. Which btw is far removed from ND, because what can't be known is actually much more important. But if we follow their logic, then in deep sleep we must not exist because there's no perception. Or is it we can't know we exist because there's no perception? Pretzelitis, definitely. Yah, mon. The dilemma for the mind is annoying as fuggall. What's NOTHING within which even the mind's imagined nothing/space/emptiness/stuff and the paradox pretzel appear? Can there actually be an 'answer'? Nah. No dilemma. I exist in deep sleep. |
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Post by someNOTHING! on Jul 27, 2022 8:51:03 GMT -5
Yah, mon. The dilemma for the mind is annoying as fuggall. What's NOTHING within which even the mind's imagined nothing/space/emptiness/stuff and the paradox pretzel appear? Can there actually be an 'answer'? Nah. No dilemma. I exist in deep sleep. So, no pretzel of confusion. Bueno. |
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Post by someNOTHING! on Jul 27, 2022 10:26:55 GMT -5
Any "irritation" as to this dialog is quite mild, I assure you. Especially since it's a re-hash of the same discussion we've had many times before. Get present to what you're projecting. It's been explained to you many times that existential "knowledge" is actually an absence, a falling away. You don't gain anything in the realizations that can end the seeking, you actually lose the impetus to associate this relative knowledge with what you've realized. Among other things. I know you don't accept that, but it is what it is, and I'm not going to lie to you about it, nor remain silent in this instance. Yes, I think I know what I know about physics as I've discussed it with you in this dialog, but that is relative knowledge about the world of form. I'm not faulting you for that, and it can sometimes be fun bantering with you on the topic. I certainly understand the interest. But it is relative knowledge about what comes and goes. I find what you write now to be self-contradictory to what you wrote here: QM is not a window into the existential unkonwn. It's a window on a wall of an old apartment building that sold the air rights to the developer next door almost a hundred years ago now. As for the trail, do you remember the dream ZD described in Pouring Concrete? The one where he followed tracks (can't remember, might have been train tracks or not) .. he followed them out into a field where they just sort of faded away into the grass or the landscape. Do you remember reading that? First, my journey is an existential journey, I think I've been pretty clear on this. I've said my journey is about blood, sweat and tears. For me, seeing through self, the illusion of self, the cultural self/small s self, is the beginning, it's just the first rung of the ladder. In the words of Simone Weil, then decreation begins (Gravity and Grace), in the words of Thomas Keating, dismantling begins (Invitation To Love, this in relation to the Desert Fathers, and Mothers). I'm about understanding, not realizations. You are right, I don't accept that, for me. It does not compute, for me (Not that it doesn't compute, I just think what you-all [ND] think is the end of the journey is just the beginning of the journey. I've told zd about 15 times, in public conversation, there's more, but I leave it there because that's all that can be said, on this end). I have no problem with anyone else's journey or not-journey or end of journey or ND not-journey. I know ~you all~ think I'm walking out to the desert-mirage with my canteen. But what you (plural) think of me is none of my business (unless anyone wants to engage). I read Pouring Concrete a long time ago, I don't remember the dream. (And I owe zd, as I bought it used). Lastly, what don't you get about the word (metaphorically)? I think what you're saying here is that now that you have SR behind you, with the dismantling done, you're more interested in following through with the plan as set up by what the Desert Fathers and Mothers said must happen afterwards. I sometimes think your take on what ND functions as is not correct. For example, if you think ND says anything like you can't do this or that after SR, I'd be curious where that idea came from. You are perfectly free to whatever tickles your fancy as you go about life. No one has any qualms about that; at least I don't. But, then, I have no idea why you would think that you are 'slow' in understanding these discussions of what ND points to, so the discussion might get thrown into a loop as part of the journey. Maybe that's just a terminology thing or some dissonance with a preferred model, not sure. In grappling with mind concepts that obscure the potential for Grace to shine through, 'essence' is one of those that would need to be cut through, because it's a distraction to SR. But, again, you're saying that now that you have uncovered what ND points to, you want to explore the nurturing 'essence'. Is that what you are sayng? If so, is that not something of a synonym for 'clarity in action', or something to the effect? |
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Post by tenka on Jul 27, 2022 13:38:10 GMT -5
I am questioning all those that speak about it with some kind of authority . I can speak about this kinda stuff without ever using the word . You see when peeps speak about reality and the nature of appearances and use Consciousness, it doesn't mean anything to me, especially when appearances just arise from out of it too . Perhaps you could put my mind at rest and tell me what you have realised Consciousness to be . So far there hasn't been many takers . I've got no interest in responding to your question with any sincerity because I find the source of the question to be devoid of sincere curiosity. No hard feelings btw, and I would hope the same from you, I'm just being honest. I have no idea why you came up with that in regards to what I said . It was a genuine question based upon the lack of actual answers I get from asking straightforward questions . Straightforward questions that should be relatively effortless to answer if one has realised Consciousness . You didn't care to answer what constitutes a person the other day . That's fine . You don't have to but it seems that any straightforward answers are pretty rare on non duality forums even though the philosophies flow . No hard feelings taken, I am more surprised by what you said more than anything else . All my questions are genuine . At times I am probably more seriously questioning what I do, it really depends on how the other person is behaving towards me . |
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Post by tenka on Jul 27, 2022 13:43:50 GMT -5
I am questioning all those that speak about it with some kind of authority . I can speak about this kinda stuff without ever using the word . You see when peeps speak about reality and the nature of appearances and use Consciousness, it doesn't mean anything to me, especially when appearances just arise from out of it too . Perhaps you could put my mind at rest and tell me what you have realised Consciousness to be . So far there hasn't been many takers . Do you know what consciousness is? If so let's hear it. Here's some help www.thesaurus.com/browse/consciousnessI haven't realised what Consciousness is . When I transcended, I didn't have the magic word pop up in my head . If peeps want to discuss the dictionary definitions then that is another matter . When peeps speak about appearances arising out of consciousness and the bus and the bus driver are consciousness and the bus and the bus driver only appear when you look at them etc etc, I want to know from them what is this Consciousness you have realised . It seems peeps like to swap awareness and Consciousness at times any willy nilly, What I am is conscious and aware .. I haven't realised I am Consciousess on the back of that . In order for peeps to make a self realised stance regarding appearances and all things then they have to have realised that . As you know non conceptual pointers don't work in these regards . If peeps were only honest . It's kinda odd really, all the supposed character traits of a Self realised peep seem to be abundantly missing on non duality forums . |
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