Death

[sree]

Martha passed away two weeks ago. Her death, or should I say her absence, is beginning to assert its presence. Her husband, my neighbor, now walks a dog every day - something he never did. Where is the grief? If he doesn't die within a year, theirs couldn't have been a relationship made in Heaven.

All those years of battling lung cancer next door took a toll even on me living across the fence from them.

Why do we burden ourselves with death and dread this phenomenon so much? Their upcoming "Celebration of Life" event is contrived melodrama. And their RSVP invite is a summons to me to appear. With each passing day, my feelings against going have gotten stronger. So, has the compulsion to comply with convention: attend a neighbor's ceremony of death.

[sree]

Jul 9, 2022 14:20:46 GMT -5 sree said:

Martha passed away two weeks ago. Her death, or should I say her absence, is beginning to assert its presence. Her husband, my neighbor, now walks a dog every day - something he never did. Where is the grief? If he doesn't die within a year, theirs couldn't have been a relationship made in Heaven.

All those years of battling lung cancer next door took a toll even on me living across the fence from them.

Why do we burden ourselves with death and dread this phenomenon so much? Their upcoming "Celebration of Life" event is contrived melodrama. And their RSVP invite is a summons to me to appear. With each passing day, my feelings against going have gotten stronger. So, has the compulsion to comply with convention: attend a neighbor's ceremony of death.

It’s strange that death only takes a toll on those close enough to be impacted by the event. The occurrence of death is like a missile strike. Casualties are at the epicenter of the carnage. No doubt Martha’s kids are feeling a gaping hole in their lives.

Even though it’s better for them that their ailing mother is now dead instead of suffering illness, the emptiness of her absence can bring forth sorrow. I am not at the epicenter. Martha’s death left no flesh wounds. No sorrow. Just a ringing sound in my ears from the blast next door. Far away in Chicago, the carnage that left six people dead made no impression on me. I am too far away and don’t feel a thing.

[sree]

Jul 10, 2022 15:10:28 GMT -5 sree said:

Jul 9, 2022 14:20:46 GMT -5 sree said:

Martha passed away two weeks ago. Her death, or should I say her absence, is beginning to assert its presence. Her husband, my neighbor, now walks a dog every day - something he never did. Where is the grief? If he doesn't die within a year, theirs couldn't have been a relationship made in Heaven.

All those years of battling lung cancer next door took a toll even on me living across the fence from them.

Why do we burden ourselves with death and dread this phenomenon so much? Their upcoming "Celebration of Life" event is contrived melodrama. And their RSVP invite is a summons to me to appear. With each passing day, my feelings against going have gotten stronger. So, has the compulsion to comply with convention: attend a neighbor's ceremony of death.

It’s strange that death only takes a toll on those close enough to be impacted by the event. The occurrence of death is like a missile strike. Casualties are at the epicenter of the carnage. No doubt Martha’s kids are feeling a gaping hole in their lives.

Even though it’s better for them that their ailing mother is now dead instead of suffering illness, the emptiness of her absence can bring forth sorrow. I am not at the epicenter. Martha’s death left no flesh wounds. No sorrow. Just a ringing sound in my ears from the blast next door. Far away in Chicago, the carnage that left six people dead made no impression on me. I am too far away and don’t feel a thing.

I still remember walking down a street in Singapore. The 2-storied townhouses ran down both sides of the narrow roadway. A death event was going on at one of the townhouses. I could see a Chinese coffin set up inside as I walked by. A framed photograph of the deceased was on the wall above the casket surrounded by mourners. Sounds of flute and cymbals wafted out into the street. Four houses down, a party was going on. Line-dancing revelers inside were totally into their own thing oblivious to the grieving in a parallel universe four houses up the street from them. Surreal.

Ours is a bizarre existential reality. Nobody can feel your pain. Humanity is a fractured organism, splintered into 8 billion discrete dog-eat-dog parts. This is why we can kill each other purposefully and without remorse.

[Deleted]

Jul 9, 2022 14:20:46 GMT -5 sree said:

Martha passed away two weeks ago. Her death, or should I say her absence, is beginning to assert its presence. Her husband, my neighbor, now walks a dog every day - something he never did. Where is the grief? If he doesn't die within a year, theirs couldn't have been a relationship made in Heaven.

All those years of battling lung cancer next door took a toll even on me living across the fence from them.

Why do we burden ourselves with death and dread this phenomenon so much? Their upcoming "Celebration of Life" event is contrived melodrama. And their RSVP invite is a summons to me to appear. With each passing day, my feelings against going have gotten stronger. So, has the compulsion to comply with convention: attend a neighbor's ceremony of death.

oh for heaven's sake, man up and go and pay your respects. It's not always about you! Here in Thailand when someone dies it's party time! They would think your morbid alienating view of death to be quite strange. I've had two people die near me within the last 3 weeks and it's been non-stop music, people turning up for meals a real party atmosphere and a celebration of life. I feel sad for you when I read your views on death and relationships. It seems you just want to sit out life until the whole thing is over. And then you come here and tell everyone about it incessantly. Try and think of something cheerful.

[ouroboros]

Jul 10, 2022 15:10:28 GMT -5 sree said:

Jul 9, 2022 14:20:46 GMT -5 sree said:

Martha passed away two weeks ago. Her death, or should I say her absence, is beginning to assert its presence. Her husband, my neighbor, now walks a dog every day - something he never did. Where is the grief? If he doesn't die within a year, theirs couldn't have been a relationship made in Heaven.

All those years of battling lung cancer next door took a toll even on me living across the fence from them.

Why do we burden ourselves with death and dread this phenomenon so much? Their upcoming "Celebration of Life" event is contrived melodrama. And their RSVP invite is a summons to me to appear. With each passing day, my feelings against going have gotten stronger. So, has the compulsion to comply with convention: attend a neighbor's ceremony of death.

It’s strange that death only takes a toll on those close enough to be impacted by the event. The occurrence of death is like a missile strike. Casualties are at the epicenter of the carnage. No doubt Martha’s kids are feeling a gaping hole in their lives.

Even though it’s better for them that their ailing mother is now dead instead of suffering illness, the emptiness of her absence can bring forth sorrow. I am not at the epicenter. Martha’s death left no flesh wounds. No sorrow. Just a ringing sound in my ears from the blast next door. Far away in Chicago, the carnage that left six people dead made no impression on me. I am too far away and don’t feel a thing.

You write well, and it's interesting musing. What I took from reading this is that in many respects death appears to be more of a 'local' event, as opposed to a 'non-local' event. Which I suppose would fit with the ideas expressed in many spiritual discourses and ontologies.

Just passing by though, I'm pretty much all talked out on the other thread for the time being.

[sree]

Jul 11, 2022 0:54:31 GMT -5 @satch said:

Jul 9, 2022 14:20:46 GMT -5 sree said:

Martha passed away two weeks ago. Her death, or should I say her absence, is beginning to assert its presence. Her husband, my neighbor, now walks a dog every day - something he never did. Where is the grief? If he doesn't die within a year, theirs couldn't have been a relationship made in Heaven.

All those years of battling lung cancer next door took a toll even on me living across the fence from them.

Why do we burden ourselves with death and dread this phenomenon so much? Their upcoming "Celebration of Life" event is contrived melodrama. And their RSVP invite is a summons to me to appear. With each passing day, my feelings against going have gotten stronger. So, has the compulsion to comply with convention: attend a neighbor's ceremony of death.

oh for heaven's sake, man up and go and pay your respects. It's not always about you! Here in Thailand when someone dies it's party time! They would think your morbid alienating view of death to be quite strange. I've had two people die near me within the last 3 weeks and it's been non-stop music, people turning up for meals a real party atmosphere and a celebration of life. I feel sad for you when I read your views on death and relationships. It seems you just want to sit out life until the whole thing is over. And then you come here and tell everyone about it incessantly. Try and think of something cheerful.

I know you guys are having a party stamping on Gopal and other stuff. I am mourning here over the human disease of heartlessness.

Now that you mention it (people dying near you), I came home from the car workshop this morning after learning that my favorite guy there died. I was shocked but not heartbroken. I talked to Elio just two weeks ago to make an appointment. He said: “Bring it in next Wednesday.” I did last Wednesday but was met by a sign on their closed door. It said, “Closed all week. Family emergency.” Didn’t look good to me. I thought Elio’s father, Stan, could have passed away. Stan is a white Italian in his seventies. Elio was a black guy in his late twenties or early thirties. He could have been adopted by Stan from a home for kids from troubled families. Stan had retired two years ago and handed the business to Elio. At that time, Stan had been the one tending to my precious BMW. I wasn’t comfortable with a rookie Elio looking after it. As it turned out, Elio did impress me. He was a chip off the old block and had all the same work ethics as Stan. My ride was in good hands. I was blown away this morning when I was informed that Elio died of a heart attack at the hospital. Apparently, Elio was in excellent health. I would say so because he looked great when I last saw him. “When he didn’t feel well, he went to the hospital, and never came back,” his uncle Fred (another white Italian) told me.

So, you are in Thailand. Colorful place. I remember drinking beer every night by the Chao Phraya. It was a time of disillusionment for me. I couldn’t crack the Krishnamurti puzzle. His teaching was impenetrable. I sailed up to Phuket from Singapore in my boat to catch up with a friend who was teaching there. He had quit his school administrator job at Brockwood Park, Krishnamurti’s Foundation in England. We had met earlier in India at the Indian Foundation in Chennai. I wanted to know if he had given up on the teaching.

You don’t come across as a native of Thailand. What are you doing there? Don’t tell me that you are a farang, an ex-pat looking for Nirvana, an ATM of a maiden from Chiang Mai.

[sree]

Jul 11, 2022 5:04:35 GMT -5 ouroboros said:

Jul 10, 2022 15:10:28 GMT -5 sree said:

It’s strange that death only takes a toll on those close enough to be impacted by the event. The occurrence of death is like a missile strike. Casualties are at the epicenter of the carnage. No doubt Martha’s kids are feeling a gaping hole in their lives.

Even though it’s better for them that their ailing mother is now dead instead of suffering illness, the emptiness of her absence can bring forth sorrow. I am not at the epicenter. Martha’s death left no flesh wounds. No sorrow. Just a ringing sound in my ears from the blast next door. Far away in Chicago, the carnage that left six people dead made no impression on me. I am too far away and don’t feel a thing.

You write well, and it's interesting musing. What I took from reading this is that in many respects death appears to be more of a 'local' event, as opposed to a 'non-local' event. Which I suppose would fit with the ideas expressed in many spiritual discourses and ontologies.

Just passing by though, I'm pretty much all talked out on the other thread for the time being.

We are talking animals, someone said. And when we have no one to talk to, we talk to ourselves. Talk is driven by thought…thought, thought, thought, thought. Alan Watts said that this is a sign of madness.

The kind of talk we indulged in here at Spiritual Forum cannot be done with non-spiritual types. To them, we are weirdos. It’s crazy talk. The kind Charles Manson could dive straight in and give us all a run for our money. Does that bother you?

I have no interest in death as a biological phenomenon. Frankly, the Swiss are quite rational about death. They accept euthanasia, which is the right to decommission the body when it is no longer viable as an organism. We decommission Boeing jetliners as a matter of course and don’t fly them till they break up while you are having your whiskey at 30,000 feet. Therefore, shutting down the body in a timely fashion is the smart thing to do. Martha lived ten years after being diagnosed for Stage 4 lung cancer. If she was a Boeing jet, that’s it. No more flights.

Martha was kept alive for nine years by offering herself as a guinea pig for ground-breaking cancer research clinical trials. Why should we even treat cancer when we don’t give a damn for people infested with parasitic worms and dying from famines? Do you see the disconnect? Martha was attended to by a team of dedicated leading oncologists in America. The Gopals in India are a different kettle of fish.

[ouroboros]

Jul 11, 2022 14:12:43 GMT -5 sree said:

Jul 11, 2022 5:04:35 GMT -5 ouroboros said:

You write well, and it's interesting musing. What I took from reading this is that in many respects death appears to be more of a 'local' event, as opposed to a 'non-local' event. Which I suppose would fit with the ideas expressed in many spiritual discourses and ontologies.

Just passing by though, I'm pretty much all talked out on the other thread for the time being.

We are talking animals, someone said. And when we have no one to talk to, we talk to ourselves. Talk is driven by thought…thought, thought, thought, thought. Alan Watts said that this is a sign of madness.

The kind of talk we indulged in here at Spiritual Forum cannot be done with non-spiritual types. To them, we are weirdos. It’s crazy talk. The kind Charles Manson could dive straight in and give us all a run for our money. Does that bother you?

I have no interest in death as a biological phenomenon. Frankly, the Swiss are quite rational about death. They accept euthanasia, which is the right to decommission the body when it is no longer viable as an organism. We decommission Boeing jetliners as a matter of course and don’t fly them till they break up while you are having your whiskey at 30,000 feet. Therefore, shutting down the body in a timely fashion is the smart thing to do. Martha lived ten years after being diagnosed for Stage 4 lung cancer. If she was a Boeing jet, that’s it. No more flights.

Martha was kept alive for nine years by offering herself as a guinea pig for ground-breaking cancer research clinical trials. Why should we even treat cancer when we don’t give a damn for people infested with parasitic worms and dying from famines? Do you see the disconnect? Martha was attended to by a team of dedicated leading oncologists in America. The Gopals in India are a different kettle of fish.

Then I shall consider it a boon that my propensity to want to talk, both on and offline is actually quite limited.

It doesn't bother me too much that people might think we are weirdos. Other than the usual social, and perhaps biological conditioning- to be accepted as part of the group. But being conscious of it tends to mitigate that somewhat. I'm a bit of a loner anyway, and truth be told I don't have a particularly high opinion of folks generally. So no, I don't bother too much what other people think of me. And I learnt a long time ago that talking about spirituality to those who's radar it isn't already on, tends to result in either incredulity or alarm. So I haven't bothered with that for a long time, and appreciate the value of a venue such as this.

What I said before wasn't strictly limited to the biological. Needless to say, death is the end of the psychological as well. And the absence felt by those left behind is of both in respect to their departed loved one. I'm aware of the Swiss Dignitas option. Although I couldn't imagine myself going that path.

I do see the disconnect. I could say that when it comes to healthcare money talks, and that it's a consequence of a consumer based society. Along with the 'out of sight out of mind' disposition you alluded to before. That ideally there'd be a better balance between prolonging life at all cost for the advantaged, and ignoring the plight of the disadvantaged entirely. I could say that ultimately the disconnect can be envisaged as coming about as a result of ignorance [of spiritual matters]. Basically shortsightedness and skewed values.

Idk, maybe the world moves at its own pace, with any improvement coming in fits and starts. Perhaps as the result of strife, or as great teachers pass through. But incrementally. Or perhaps it's that some things will never change. What do you think?

[Deleted]

Jul 11, 2022 12:20:34 GMT -5 sree said:

You don’t come across as a native of Thailand. What are you doing there? Don’t tell me that you are a farang, an ex-pat looking for Nirvana, an ATM of a maiden from Chiang Mai.

No I'm a Brit. Lived in Phuket for 25 years, 15 years of which was spent working in the real estate business. Now living in Isaan near Udon Thani where I built a house where my wife comes from. Nirvana was unrelated to the Thailand experience.

[sree]

Jul 11, 2022 19:38:59 GMT -5 @satch said:

Jul 11, 2022 12:20:34 GMT -5 sree said:

You don’t come across as a native of Thailand. What are you doing there? Don’t tell me that you are a farang, an ex-pat looking for Nirvana, an ATM of a maiden from Chiang Mai.

No I'm a Brit. Lived in Phuket for 25 years, 15 years of which was spent working in the real estate business. Now living in Isaan near Udon Thani where I built a house where my wife comes from. Nirvana was unrelated to the Thailand experience.

I can relate with you. Since giving up the conventional life, I have been living abroad six months a year - first in Europe, and the last 7 years mainly in Asia. I am familiar with South East Asia. I am now back home in the US on account of the Covid mess. My boat is still moored at a riverine marina, offshore Singapore. An Asian wife is good. A Thai wife is ideal.

If I am not committed to spirituality, I would also have an Asian wife. A white woman is not wife material, in my opinion. She can take you out if you get spiritual instead of getting a job.

Let's hope you die before your wife does.   

     

[Deleted]

Jul 11, 2022 23:13:03 GMT -5 sree said:

Jul 11, 2022 19:38:59 GMT -5 @satch said:

No I'm a Brit. Lived in Phuket for 25 years, 15 years of which was spent working in the real estate business. Now living in Isaan near Udon Thani where I built a house where my wife comes from. Nirvana was unrelated to the Thailand experience.

I can relate with you. Since giving up the conventional life, I have been living abroad six months a year - first in Europe, and the last 7 years mainly in Asia. I am familiar with South East Asia. I am now back home in the US on account of the Covid mess. My boat is still moored at a riverine marina, offshore Singapore. An Asian wife is good. A Thai wife is ideal.

If I am not committed to spirituality, I would also have an Asian wife. A white woman is not wife material, in my opinion. She can take you out if you get spiritual instead of getting a job.

Let's hope you die before your wife does.   

     

What a bizarre series of comments. 😃 If I'd seen you in that bar on the banks of the river in Bangkok I would have avoided you.

[Deleted]

Jul 11, 2022 23:13:03 GMT -5 sree said:

Jul 11, 2022 19:38:59 GMT -5 @satch said:

No I'm a Brit. Lived in Phuket for 25 years, 15 years of which was spent working in the real estate business. Now living in Isaan near Udon Thani where I built a house where my wife comes from. Nirvana was unrelated to the Thailand experience.

I can relate with you. Since giving up the conventional life, I have been living abroad six months a year - first in Europe, and the last 7 years mainly in Asia. I am familiar with South East Asia. I am now back home in the US on account of the Covid mess. My boat is still moored at a riverine marina, offshore Singapore. An Asian wife is good. A Thai wife is ideal.

If I am not committed to spirituality, I would also have an Asian wife. A white woman is not wife material, in my opinion. She can take you out if you get spiritual instead of getting a job.

Let's hope you die before your wife does.   

     

Not sure whether you are serious about this comment. But made me laugh so heavily

[Deleted]

Jul 12, 2022 0:42:53 GMT -5 @satch said:

Jul 11, 2022 23:13:03 GMT -5 sree said:

I can relate with you. Since giving up the conventional life, I have been living abroad six months a year - first in Europe, and the last 7 years mainly in Asia. I am familiar with South East Asia. I am now back home in the US on account of the Covid mess. My boat is still moored at a riverine marina, offshore Singapore. An Asian wife is good. A Thai wife is ideal.

If I am not committed to spirituality, I would also have an Asian wife. A white woman is not wife material, in my opinion. She can take you out if you get spiritual instead of getting a job.

Let's hope you die before your wife does.   

     

What a bizarre series of comments. 😃 If I'd seen you in that bar on the banks of the river in Bangkok I would have avoided you.

Looks like he is talking seriously

[sree]

Jul 11, 2022 0:54:31 GMT -5 @satch said:

Jul 9, 2022 14:20:46 GMT -5 sree said:

Martha passed away two weeks ago. Her death, or should I say her absence, is beginning to assert its presence. Her husband, my neighbor, now walks a dog every day - something he never did. Where is the grief? If he doesn't die within a year, theirs couldn't have been a relationship made in Heaven.

All those years of battling lung cancer next door took a toll even on me living across the fence from them.

Why do we burden ourselves with death and dread this phenomenon so much? Their upcoming "Celebration of Life" event is contrived melodrama. And their RSVP invite is a summons to me to appear. With each passing day, my feelings against going have gotten stronger. So, has the compulsion to comply with convention: attend a neighbor's ceremony of death.

oh for heaven's sake, man up and go and pay your respects. It's not always about you! Here in Thailand when someone dies it's party time! They would think your morbid alienating view of death to be quite strange. I've had two people die near me within the last 3 weeks and it's been non-stop music, people turning up for meals a real party atmosphere and a celebration of life. I feel sad for you when I read your views on death and relationships. It seems you just want to sit out life until the whole thing is over. And then you come here and tell everyone about it incessantly. Try and think of something cheerful.

I can’t think of anything cheerful. Even in party-time Thailand, there are things to be sad about. Thailand has a party king. He parties mainly in Europe. And ex-pats from Europe party in the bars along the Chao Phraya river. Most of them have Thai wives. One German guy told me that Thai wives can be lethal. He said that an ex-pat had his penis sliced clean off by his Thai wife. She used a razor while he was asleep. Apparently, he had been fooling around with other Thai women he met at the riverside bars in Bangkok. The poor guy screamed in pain and frantically look for the severed part. There was hope because Thai doctors are the world’s leading penile re-attachment experts. He shook the bedclothes and his penis fell out onto the floor and through a gap between the floorboards to the rice paddy below. He ran down to retrieve it but a duck got it first, gobbled it down, and ran off.

Have you ever tried chasing a duck, satch? Don’t party so much.

[someNOTHING!]

Jul 12, 2022 9:19:13 GMT -5 sree said:

Jul 11, 2022 0:54:31 GMT -5 @satch said:

oh for heaven's sake, man up and go and pay your respects. It's not always about you! Here in Thailand when someone dies it's party time! They would think your morbid alienating view of death to be quite strange. I've had two people die near me within the last 3 weeks and it's been non-stop music, people turning up for meals a real party atmosphere and a celebration of life. I feel sad for you when I read your views on death and relationships. It seems you just want to sit out life until the whole thing is over. And then you come here and tell everyone about it incessantly. Try and think of something cheerful.

I can’t think of anything cheerful. Even in party-time Thailand, there are things to be sad about. Thailand has a party king. He parties mainly in Europe. And ex-pats from Europe party in the bars along the Chao Phraya river. Most of them have Thai wives. One German guy told me that Thai wives can be lethal. He said that an ex-pat had his penis sliced clean off by his Thai wife. She used a razor while he was asleep. Apparently, he had been fooling around with other Thai women he met at the riverside bars in Bangkok. The poor guy screamed in pain and frantically look for the severed part. There was hope because Thai doctors are the world’s leading penile re-attachment experts. He shook the bedclothes and his penis fell out onto the floor and through a gap between the floorboards to the rice paddy below. He ran down to retrieve it but a duck got it first, gobbled it down, and ran off.

Have you ever tried chasing a duck, satch? Don’t party so much.

Wow, sounds like a great short film. Who's to blame in such a story? Does life imaginate art or does art imitate life, hehe?

It's OK to feel sadness and, for a while, it is OK to suffer, though it's not necessary.

I think you are misunderstanding Satch and, perhaps, how members on this forum usually conduct themselves. In other words, try to bring it into the realm of searching for the depths to which maybe Krishnamurti would have you aspire.

So, here's a koan-like thingy to potentially ponder that might help rise above the encapsulating thoughts that seem to be clouding your perception--- but only if you choose.

These thoughts are appearing and taking on a life of their own somehow. What are they indicating with respect to one's beliefs in Existence? Do the thoughts imaginate Existence as it actually is, or what imaginates the thoughts/beliefs via the mind?

If nothing else, that's a lot of what we're on about here.

Take it or leave it.