|
|
Post by andrew on Jul 6, 2022 16:35:52 GMT -5
 Good point, can't believe I missed that one! "You" weren't there! OK, a bit of an annoying over-the-top expression (for my tastes, anyway), but he covers the key points. Hafta say, I really quite enjoyed his exuberantly eloquent expression. And he sort of reminded me of Tony Robbins a bit. But, not sure I could listen to him for more than 3 minutes! It did bring up a memory of being 19, and taking 'substances' with friends at a rave. I won't go into details here, but my friend and I both agreed that what we were feeling in that moment was even better than sex. To be fair, at the ripe age of 19, I probably still had a bit to learn on the sex front |
|
|
|
Post by andrew on Jul 6, 2022 16:49:17 GMT -5
Interesting, I hadn't looked at death from that angle before. And yes, I remember a Niz quote saying that people don't fear death itself, they fear the sense of 'I am going away' that they associate with death....and which of course also relates to the no-self fear. I've definitely experienced that fear, but even that is an interesting one, after all, we aren't scared of falling asleep each night, which in its own way, is 'self-annihilation'. In fact, many folks lay in bed with a pleasurable sense of 'I am going away'. So when I've looked at the 'no-self' fear, I think it relates more to stuff like....'what will people think of me in a no-self state' or 'how will I function in a no self state'....and those fears obviously don't apply to sleep. So my impression is that even the 'no self' fear isn't an inevitable one...if our apparent world was set up in such way that 'no self' was the norm, then dropping the self would be easy enough. Though if 'no self' was the cultural norm, then it begs the question as to whether the 'self' would even be part of our conditioning to start with. I know you know this one, but the coffee had me buzzing and thinking about Billy Shakes in reference to what you'd written here. I have never fully understood (and have always been a little curious about) why some peeps seems so averse to others using the dream metaphor. The Tempest Act 4, scene 1, 148–158Such stuff as dreams are made on Prospero: Our revels now are ended. These our actors, As I foretold you, were all spirits, and Are melted into air, into thin air: And like the baseless fabric of this vision, The cloud-capp'd tow'rs, the gorgeous palaces, The solemn temples, the great globe itself, Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff As dreams are made on; and our little life Is rounded with a sleep. Culture is derived from the ability to think/remember/believe, and of which self is imagined. Self, once identified with, then, due to some DNA tricks, aspires to group identity. With a few more fibrous layers of neo cortex thrown in, culture could blossom. So, yeah, with respect to cultural norms, assumptions of 'self' are mostly indicative of not being fully conscious of what mind does, which is probably where the idea of 'looking inward' came about, with respect to the spiritual search. The realization/insight of 'no self' typically brings that assumption into greater conscious awareness, sometimes fully. That is, it can come across as a peak 'experience', like in an LSD/mushroom trip or something more out of the blue, and then fade into the waves of mind/thought (i.e., the momentum of conditoning). With greater focus on coming to terms with the realization/insight, it can be sustained and clearly SEEN, as the sky is boundless, in the present, with or without thought (i.e., discussions on appearances and the like is alluding to this). A norm of 'no self', I suspect, would likely only ever be a distinct sub-culture/group, which is why it is cool to have a cyber-sanitorium like ths one to hash perspectives out. The desire to communicate it is somewhat indicative of the same DNA tweak giving rise to the social dynamics of the minds perceived through. It's a truly wondrous thing, given the backdrop of all that the mind can understand in how physical form came to be. To die psychologically before you die is to KNOW, is to steal the fire of the -believed in- gods. Such is SR/THE INSIGHT of all insights. Death levels the playing field, so when the α becomes the Ω and vice versa, it can certainly feel dreamy. That dude Billy really had a way with words didn't he? I started to highlight sections I liked, but actually, I like a lot of what you said, so it doesn't seem worth highlighting sections. As someone that believes in cycles (e.g Piscean/Aquarian), I do believe the potential is there for creation to produce 'enlightened societies'. I'm okay with the dream analogy/metaphor, depending on how its used. The idea of 'God' dreaming is definitely fine with me. I tend to be less comfortable when nightly dreams are being literally used to say something about what we know or don't know. Though if it was being suggested that it's possible that 'I' (individual context) are being dreamed by a broader 'I, then logically, I would probably be cool with that. |
|
|
|
Death
Jul 6, 2022 16:57:01 GMT -5
Post by andrew on Jul 6, 2022 16:57:01 GMT -5
There was a time when I used to assume that death was the 'big fear', but at some point I looked closely at it, and decided that it may be somewhat over-hyped. People risk their own lives, and not just to save others....people do all sorts of ridiculous dangerous things for the adventure of it. Even just getting in a car every day. And of course people take their own lives. And many old people die without fear. So I think there are considerably bigger fears. Maybe fears of being alone. Fears of being ashamed. Fears of suffering. Certainly I think humans do have a fear of death, but I see it as more a tip of the iceberg, it is a way our deeper fears manifest at a conscious level. And with animals, I've had plenty of pets over the years and witnessed them die without an ounce of fear, particularly when they are very old. Animals are wired to avoid certain sensations, and it makes sense to interpret this as a 'survival instinct', but I don't think this is an actual 'fear of death' as humans neurotically experience it. Perhaps the idea of 'survival instinct' deserves a more positive framing e.g 'the will to experience being alive'. I like what you said that fear of death is terrorism. There is this advice on the right way to live: be prepared for death.
Are we ever ready to die, drop everything and check out anytime without getting caught with our pants down?
Our conventional lifestyle has no provision for a dead stop and instant fade out. Rather, it is patterned on the flight of a commercial jetliner with a schedule from city of departure to city of destination. And our destination is somewhere past 80 years of age or more. We live like passengers on the way from JFK to Amsterdam: watching movies in our seats, chatting about anything but death with the person sitting next to us, or hitting on the stewardess at the back of the cabin with a drink in our hand.
The reason for our “fear of death” is that it is a bummer, a disappointment that wrecks our lives. Death? No, not now. Not ever. The body is not afraid of death because it has nothing going on for it. Life is all about the self and its agenda. Animals and plants have nothing going on for them either. I am asking you, one self to another. What is causing this spiritual pursuit of the no-self state? I've sometimes had the thought that all that we do, as humans, is continually distract ourselves from the reality of impending death. Not the most uplifting thought I've ever had but there we go. I really liked the bit I highlighted. what causes the spiritual pursuit of the no-self state? I would say it's the pain of the self, coupled with an intuitive sense that we are being misrepresented by our 'self-stories', simply, there is more (though as it turns out, also 'less') to 'me' than the story I believe about 'me'. I think that varying levels of intuition and pain drives the spirit of curiosity, though this curiosity may be fuelled for some by the sense that the 'outer world' can't give the answers or satisfaction we long for. I also liked the question you asked laughter, I can't remember the exact wording, but it was something like, 'why are you alive'....something along those lines. |
|
|
|
Death
Jul 6, 2022 17:02:46 GMT -5
Post by someNOTHING! on Jul 6, 2022 17:02:46 GMT -5
"You" weren't there! OK, a bit of an annoying over-the-top expression (for my tastes, anyway), but he covers the key points. Hafta say, I really quite enjoyed his exuberantly eloquent expression. And he sort of reminded me of Tony Robbins a bit. But, not sure I could listen to him for more than 3 minutes! It did bring up a memory of being 19, and taking 'substances' with friends at a rave. I won't go into details here, but my friend and I both agreed that what we were feeling in that moment was even better than sex. To be fair, at the ripe age of 19, I probably still had a bit to learn on the sex front Yeah, 3mins tops! With respect to rave scenes, my mom is considering potentially trying a ketamine infusion treatment for her severe depression/anxiety. I mentioned it to her, she asked about it, I gave her a bit more to read, and she's tinkering with it. The literature does mention the disassociative experience that might be indicative of the "little death" (i.e., of self). This is purported to be quite successful in giving people a detached view of their negative state, which can then be reinforced via cognitive behavioral and sorts of psych therapy to enable more constructive activities to engage the mind and/or rewire the synapses. As for the sexual dynamo wisdom you obviously are implying here, I'd suggest just staying open to some lifelong learning. |
|
|
|
Death
Jul 6, 2022 17:10:28 GMT -5
Post by sree on Jul 6, 2022 17:10:28 GMT -5
Your glimpse is quite something. Its authenticity is unquestionable because it’s a personal experience. What we can discuss is the learning you have derived from it.
After reading it again a few times, I got a sense of why “death” seems to have an association. Your glimpse could be what those conscious final moments are as the body “gives up the ghost”. I think of Steve Jobs. He was reported (by those around him at his “death bed”) to have uttered “oh wow, oh wow” as he checked out.
Our consciousness is quite amazing. And when it goes “off track”, we get a glimpse of the extraordinary.
Why the sadness? I don't know.  I might not have the same reaction today. It was many years ago, and as others have suggested it's better not to cling to or try to recreate anything. But at some point I hope to get some more insight.
Interesting about Jobs. Insight into what? You have had a "death experience", so had laughter, Krishnamurti, and me. By this, I mean an "altered state" when consciousness is scrambled to bring about an abnormal experience of existential reality.
Krishnamurti never explained what his "death experience" was all about other than describing it in terms of a selfless state. I have often been skeptical about his authorship of those very well-written passages considering his lack of scholarship. Associating Krishnamurti with intellectual dishonesty is awful. Editors working over and cleaning up writers' manuscripts is an accepted practice. An editor may rewrite the text to make it understandable to the reader.
My own takeaway from my fleeting experiences of my "altered state" is "feel-good moments" when my sensory perception is not capturing actionable information. This tells me that the consciousness can go into "sleep mode" like a motion detector cutting out when there is no need for sentry duty. As I said, my "sleep mode" experiences are fleeting. Could they be like Krishnamurti's if "sleep mode" was protracted and lasted several seconds or even minutes? That is an exciting thought. But I am not looking for ecstasy. My theory is that such "altered states" are a normal state of consciousness when there is freedom from danger and stress. Therefore, it is critically important that our world be absolutely safe and secure. This is the reason why the transformation of the human consciousness - to bring about a world free from the suffering that selfishness brings - is necessary.
|
|
|
|
Post by andrew on Jul 6, 2022 17:15:15 GMT -5
Hafta say, I really quite enjoyed his exuberantly eloquent expression. And he sort of reminded me of Tony Robbins a bit. But, not sure I could listen to him for more than 3 minutes! It did bring up a memory of being 19, and taking 'substances' with friends at a rave. I won't go into details here, but my friend and I both agreed that what we were feeling in that moment was even better than sex. To be fair, at the ripe age of 19, I probably still had a bit to learn on the sex front Yeah, 3mins tops! With respect to rave scenes, my mom is considering potentially trying a ketamine infusion treatment for her severe depression/anxiety. I mentioned it to her, she asked about it, I gave her a bit more to read, and she's tinkering with it. The literature does mention the disassociative experience that might be indicative of the "little death" (i.e., of self). This is purported to be quite successful in giving people a detached view of their negative state, which can then be reinforced via cognitive behavioral and sorts of psych therapy to enable more constructive activities to engage the mind and/or rewire the synapses. As for the sexual dynamo wisdom you obviously are implying here, I'd suggest just staying open to some lifelong learning. Best advice I've ever been given That's very interesting. I don't actually know much about ketamine, it was only seen as desirable a few years later, at which point I was moving in a different direction. By I do recall people speaking of a 'K-Hole', which...as you say....created a sense of 'distance', that they found enjoyable. I also know that both MDMA and micro-dosing LSD have been used as successful therapies in recent years. It wouldn't be appropriate for me to recommend them obviously, but it does make a lot of sense to me that they could be used therapeutically. |
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 6, 2022 17:34:02 GMT -5
Hafta say, I really quite enjoyed his exuberantly eloquent expression. And he sort of reminded me of Tony Robbins a bit. But, not sure I could listen to him for more than 3 minutes! It did bring up a memory of being 19, and taking 'substances' with friends at a rave. I won't go into details here, but my friend and I both agreed that what we were feeling in that moment was even better than sex. To be fair, at the ripe age of 19, I probably still had a bit to learn on the sex front Yeah, 3mins tops! With respect to rave scenes, my mom is considering potentially trying a ketamine infusion treatment for her severe depression/anxiety. I mentioned it to her, she asked about it, I gave her a bit more to read, and she's tinkering with it. The literature does mention the disassociative experience that might be indicative of the "little death" (i.e., of self). This is purported to be quite successful in giving people a detached view of their negative state, which can then be reinforced via cognitive behavioral and sorts of psych therapy to enable more constructive activities to engage the mind and/or rewire the synapses. As for the sexual dynamo wisdom you obviously are implying here, I'd suggest just staying open to some lifelong learning. Once upon a time I read just about all of John C Lilly's books (all except the Dolphin books). I guess it was in the '70's, maybe '60's, he took a drug he only named as K (The Scientist, a novel autobiography one source. I dare anyone to get through Programing and Metaprograming in the Human Biocomputer. I don't know much of anything about NLP, but I think they stole from Lilly's book). Many years later I learned it was ketamine. I'm sure the amount used for therapy would be no where near the amount Lilly used. He basically used it to 'get outside the body'. It put him into spaces where he could communicate with what he was sure were exterior (from his own psyche) beings, highly intelligent beings, agents even, I think he used the word. Agents of what he called CCC, Cosmic Coincidence Control. (Edit: looked it up, add center. CCCCenter). I think I recall there were 4 letters in there, don't remember the other. I have read a little about ketamine therapy, it sounds very promising. What I would like to try at some point is the isolation tank. Lilly invented it from his study of Dolphins, what would it be like to be immersed in water, like a Dolphin? Now, from extensive research by others, as well as Lilly, as I understand it, once the mind is deprived of sensory input, one very quickly begins to hallucinate, no drugs involved. That would be a cool psychological experiment. He had a "signature" statement of the way he operated. I'll look it up to get it right. The link is a very short synopsis of Lilly. trance-scripts.com/2022/04/07/cosmic-coincidence-control-center/ |
|
|
|
Post by someNOTHING! on Jul 6, 2022 17:55:39 GMT -5
Yeah, 3mins tops! With respect to rave scenes, my mom is considering potentially trying a ketamine infusion treatment for her severe depression/anxiety. I mentioned it to her, she asked about it, I gave her a bit more to read, and she's tinkering with it. The literature does mention the disassociative experience that might be indicative of the "little death" (i.e., of self). This is purported to be quite successful in giving people a detached view of their negative state, which can then be reinforced via cognitive behavioral and sorts of psych therapy to enable more constructive activities to engage the mind and/or rewire the synapses. As for the sexual dynamo wisdom you obviously are implying here, I'd suggest just staying open to some lifelong learning. Best advice I've ever been given That's very interesting. I don't actually know much about ketamine, it was only seen as desirable a few years later, at which point I was moving in a different direction. By I do recall people speaking of a 'K-Hole', which...as you say....created a sense of 'distance', that they found enjoyable. I also know that both MDMA and micro-dosing LSD have been used as successful therapies in recent years. It wouldn't be appropriate for me to recommend them obviously, but it does make a lot of sense to me that they could be used therapeutically. Yeah, I'm mostly in the same boat as far as recommending. Yeah, I haven't heard of LSD micro-dosing, but there are a few states in which the MDMA and psilocybin micro-dosing is allowed, but not here. There are even companies propping up that are prepping for deregulation that appears to be in swing. Wild world. Glad I got a ticket. |
|
|
|
Death
Jul 6, 2022 18:02:01 GMT -5
Post by someNOTHING! on Jul 6, 2022 18:02:01 GMT -5
Yeah, 3mins tops! With respect to rave scenes, my mom is considering potentially trying a ketamine infusion treatment for her severe depression/anxiety. I mentioned it to her, she asked about it, I gave her a bit more to read, and she's tinkering with it. The literature does mention the disassociative experience that might be indicative of the "little death" (i.e., of self). This is purported to be quite successful in giving people a detached view of their negative state, which can then be reinforced via cognitive behavioral and sorts of psych therapy to enable more constructive activities to engage the mind and/or rewire the synapses. As for the sexual dynamo wisdom you obviously are implying here, I'd suggest just staying open to some lifelong learning. Once upon a time I read just about all of John C Lilly's books (all except the Dolphin books). I guess it was in the '70's, maybe '60's, he took a drug he only named as K (The Scientist, a novel autobiography one source. I dare anyone to get through Programing and Metaprograming in the Human Biocomputer). Many years later I learned it was ketamine. I'm sure the amount used for therapy would be no where near the amount Lilly used. He basically used it to 'get outside the body'. It put him into spaces where he could communicate with what he was sure were exterior (from his own psyche) beings, highly intelligent beings, agents even, I think he used the word. Agents of what he called CCC, Cosmic Coincidence Control. (Edit: looked it up, add center. CCCCenter). I think I recall there were 4 letters in there, don't remember the other. I have read a little about ketamine therapy, it sounds very promising. What I would like to try at some point is the isolation tank. Lilly invented it from his study of Dolphins, what would it be like to be immersed in water, like a Dolphin? Now, from extensive research by others, as well as Lilly, as I understand it, once the mind is deprived of sensory input, one very quickly begins to hallucinate, no drugs involved. That would be a cool psychological experiment. He had a "signature" statement of the way he operated. I'll look it up to get it right. The link is a very short synopsis of Lilly. trance-scripts.com/2022/04/07/cosmic-coincidence-control-center/Sounds more like ayahuasca, though I've never experienced. |
|
|
|
Post by sree on Jul 7, 2022 16:37:40 GMT -5
There is this advice on the right way to live: be prepared for death.
Are we ever ready to die, drop everything and check out anytime without getting caught with our pants down?
Our conventional lifestyle has no provision for a dead stop and instant fade out. Rather, it is patterned on the flight of a commercial jetliner with a schedule from city of departure to city of destination. And our destination is somewhere past 80 years of age or more. We live like passengers on the way from JFK to Amsterdam: watching movies in our seats, chatting about anything but death with the person sitting next to us, or hitting on the stewardess at the back of the cabin with a drink in our hand.
The reason for our “fear of death” is that it is a bummer, a disappointment that wrecks our lives. Death? No, not now. Not ever. The body is not afraid of death because it has nothing going on for it. Life is all about the self and its agenda. Animals and plants have nothing going on for them either. I am asking you, one self to another. What is causing this spiritual pursuit of the no-self state? I've sometimes had the thought that all that we do, as humans, is continually distract ourselves from the reality of impending death. Not the most uplifting thought I've ever had but there we go. I really liked the bit I highlighted. what causes the spiritual pursuit of the no-self state? I would say it's the pain of the self, coupled with an intuitive sense that we are being misrepresented by our 'self-stories', simply, there is more (though as it turns out, also 'less') to 'me' than the story I believe about 'me'. I think that varying levels of intuition and pain drives the spirit of curiosity, though this curiosity may be fuelled for some by the sense that the 'outer world' can't give the answers or satisfaction we long for.
I also liked the question you asked laughter, I can't remember the exact wording, but it was something like, 'why are you alive'....something along those lines. Laughter said he doesn’t have fear of death anymore but that doesn’t mean he wants to die anytime soon. So, I asked him what was his reason for not wanting to die?
I know why you like the question. It’s childlike, a question typically asked by 3-4 year-old kids. Such questions pack power because they have no guile. And they can blow the Buddha away let alone the likes of Ramana, Alan Watts and Ekchart Tolle.
|
|
|
|
Death
Jul 8, 2022 13:51:01 GMT -5
Post by sree on Jul 8, 2022 13:51:01 GMT -5
There is this advice on the right way to live: be prepared for death.
Are we ever ready to die, drop everything and check out anytime without getting caught with our pants down?
Our conventional lifestyle has no provision for a dead stop and instant fade out. Rather, it is patterned on the flight of a commercial jetliner with a schedule from city of departure to city of destination. And our destination is somewhere past 80 years of age or more. We live like passengers on the way from JFK to Amsterdam: watching movies in our seats, chatting about anything but death with the person sitting next to us, or hitting on the stewardess at the back of the cabin with a drink in our hand.
The reason for our “fear of death” is that it is a bummer, a disappointment that wrecks our lives. Death? No, not now. Not ever. The body is not afraid of death because it has nothing going on for it. Life is all about the self and its agenda. Animals and plants have nothing going on for them either. I am asking you, one self to another. What is causing this spiritual pursuit of the no-self state? I've sometimes had the thought that all that we do, as humans, is continually distract ourselves from the reality of impending death. Not the most uplifting thought I've ever had but there we go. I really liked the bit I highlighted. what causes the spiritual pursuit of the no-self state? I would say it's the pain of the self, coupled with an intuitive sense that we are being misrepresented by our 'self-stories', simply, there is more (though as it turns out, also 'less') to 'me' than the story I believe about 'me'. I think that varying levels of intuition and pain drives the spirit of curiosity, though this curiosity may be fuelled for some by the sense that the 'outer world' can't give the answers or satisfaction we long for. I also liked the question you asked laughter, I can't remember the exact wording, but it was something like, 'why are you alive'....something along those lines. 1. Pain of the self. 2. Intuitive sense of misrepresentation by Self-stories. 3. No answers.
So, spiritual pursuit of the no-self state is driven by our intuitive sense of an illusory world of pain in which the self is entrapped. I agree but let’s check it out.
Spiritual pursuit can be a form of escapism to free the self from the world of pain. Engaging you and others in conversation is meditative. It does shut out the bad stuff going on in the world. This is the reason why we all log on to talk to each other regardless of subject matter and purpose. No purpose? This is what spiritual inquiry is supposed to be, isn’t it? “No goal, no direction” (Krishnamurti).
The spirit of curiosity is something else. It is not spiritual pursuit which is a directionless, goal-less activity. Curiosity has a goal: to seek the cause of a phenomenon; namely, “pain of the self”.
Is the selfless state a “self-story”? I have an intuitive sense of misrepresentation by this story. What is the self-story? Is it the story about you, the person, the human being existing in a temporal world? The human body dies and you vanish. Until it dies, you suffer “pain of the self”: a life of insecurity and conflict.
Why can’t we find answers? |
|
|
|
Death
Jul 8, 2022 15:06:16 GMT -5
Post by sree on Jul 8, 2022 15:06:16 GMT -5
Death is a many splendored thing. Does this make sense? There is a song by that name if we replace "Death" with "Love".
I have often tried to get into Krishnamurti's head to fathom the workings of consciousness unfettered by conditioning.
Death is love, he said. Here again, he has used a conventional word and given it an esoteric meaning.
|
|
|
|
Death
Jul 8, 2022 15:08:31 GMT -5
Post by sree on Jul 8, 2022 15:08:31 GMT -5
Death is a many splendored thing. Does this make sense? There is a song by that name if we replace "Death" with "Love". I have often tried to get into Krishnamurti's head to fathom the workings of consciousness unfettered by conditioning. Death is love, he said. Here again, he has used a conventional word and given it an esoteric meaning.
Death is love, he says. Let's listen to the song and see if that perfume of truth is in the air.
|
|
|
|
Death
Jul 9, 2022 8:28:08 GMT -5
Post by sree on Jul 9, 2022 8:28:08 GMT -5
Nope. Played this song several times and listened intently. No perfume. Let's see what Krishnamurti meant by "love". What has it got to do with death?
|
|
|
|
Death
Jul 9, 2022 13:19:48 GMT -5
Post by sree on Jul 9, 2022 13:19:48 GMT -5
Towards the end of the above video, Krishnamurti says that "out of the depth of perception comes this strange flower with its extraordinary perfume...that is love."
So, love is this "strange flower with its extra-ordinary perfume" that comes out of the depth of perception. And this love has to do with death when the self is not.
No wonder David Bohm couldn't get it.
|
|
I might not have the same reaction today. It was many years ago, and as others have suggested it's better not to cling to or try to recreate anything. But at some point I hope to get some more insight.
