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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2022 6:38:19 GMT -5
Growing old is a pain in the ass.  Love it though.  No doubt that when the body finally succumbs it will be a relief. That's the proctologist. 
But at least you love it.  Nothing personal, just life loving itself. |
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Death
Jul 6, 2022 6:46:14 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2022 6:46:14 GMT -5
Silence can't cure arthritis but it can make it bearable. |
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Post by someNOTHING! on Jul 6, 2022 7:00:15 GMT -5
I've read in several places that public speaking is numero uno. I also contemplated McKenna's assertion that it's actually the fear of "no self" that is closer to the core. And, of course, there's the saying, "People don't fear death, but the dying" which, ironically, everyone is doing, regardless of their awareness of it. The phenomenon of entropy provides a nuanced look at the physical level: "Real processes tend to go in the direction of increasing entropy. Aging can be envisioned as an irreversible process of entropy accumulation. Getting older means having less control of body functions, being more disordered. Death is the ultimate disorder, a state of maximum entropy". Interesting, I hadn't looked at death from that angle before. And yes, I remember a Niz quote saying that people don't fear death itself, they fear the sense of 'I am going away' that they associate with death....and which of course also relates to the no-self fear. I've definitely experienced that fear, but even that is an interesting one, after all, we aren't scared of falling asleep each night, which in its own way, is 'self-annihilation'. In fact, many folks lay in bed with a pleasurable sense of 'I am going away'. So when I've looked at the 'no-self' fear, I think it relates more to stuff like....'what will people think of me in a no-self state' or 'how will I function in a no self state'....and those fears obviously don't apply to sleep. So my impression is that even the 'no self' fear isn't an inevitable one...if our apparent world was set up in such way that 'no self' was the norm, then dropping the self would be easy enough. Though if 'no self' was the cultural norm, then it begs the question as to whether the 'self' would even be part of our conditioning to start with. I know you know this one, but the coffee had me buzzing and thinking about Billy Shakes in reference to what you'd written here. I have never fully understood (and have always been a little curious about) why some peeps seems so averse to others using the dream metaphor. The Tempest Act 4, scene 1, 148–158Such stuff as dreams are made on Prospero: Our revels now are ended. These our actors, As I foretold you, were all spirits, and Are melted into air, into thin air: And like the baseless fabric of this vision, The cloud-capp'd tow'rs, the gorgeous palaces, The solemn temples, the great globe itself, Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff As dreams are made on; and our little life Is rounded with a sleep. Culture is derived from the ability to think/remember/believe, and of which self is imagined. Self, once identified with, then, due to some DNA tricks, aspires to group identity. With a few more fibrous layers of neo cortex thrown in, culture could blossom. So, yeah, with respect to cultural norms, assumptions of 'self' are mostly indicative of not being fully conscious of what mind does, which is probably where the idea of 'looking inward' came about, with respect to the spiritual search. The realization/insight of 'no self' typically brings that assumption into greater conscious awareness, sometimes fully. That is, it can come across as a peak 'experience', like in an LSD/mushroom trip or something more out of the blue, and then fade into the waves of mind/thought (i.e., the momentum of conditoning). With greater focus on coming to terms with the realization/insight, it can be sustained and clearly SEEN, as the sky is boundless, in the present, with or without thought (i.e., discussions on appearances and the like is alluding to this). A norm of 'no self', I suspect, would likely only ever be a distinct sub-culture/group, which is why it is cool to have a cyber-sanitorium like ths one to hash perspectives out. The desire to communicate it is somewhat indicative of the same DNA tweak giving rise to the social dynamics of the minds perceived through. It's a truly wondrous thing, given the backdrop of all that the mind can understand in how physical form came to be. To die psychologically before you die is to KNOW, is to steal the fire of the -believed in- gods. Such is SR/THE INSIGHT of all insights. Death levels the playing field, so when the α becomes the Ω and vice versa, it can certainly feel dreamy. |
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Death
Jul 6, 2022 7:08:45 GMT -5
Post by someNOTHING! on Jul 6, 2022 7:08:45 GMT -5
That's the proctologist.
But at least you love it. Nothing personal, just life loving itself. Silence can't cure arthritis but it can make it bearable. Right, mental silence is something of a death if one gets right down to it. A truer sense of Love/Gratitude can emerge. |
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Death
Jul 6, 2022 9:41:20 GMT -5
Post by sree on Jul 6, 2022 9:41:20 GMT -5
[...] I cannot corroborate your experiences, robertk's experience, or Krishnamurti's experiences. I think I know what they are. You guys were spacing out. I space out also but momentarily [...] I don't know what it was, but I guarantee you it wasn't "spacing out". More below. I didn't mean to ignore you here, but I'm taking some time to reassess my use of this forum. I have mixed feelings about sharing things that are personal, and feel almost sacred, in any environment, and more so on the internet if people are getting into competitive "debate" and dog-mount-dog dialogs. Recently it took a turn for the worse here when I debated some q-anon "Trump really won" types in a private thread and it turned to disdain and condescension. So I need a breather, but I can try to answer your question from above. I think the important point is that, if you are genuinely interested, you can discover some deep things within yourself. The saying "knock, and the door will open" ... there is truth to it. But it may be humbling. A bit about the glimpse... It started when I noticed a pattern in my mind of "me-assertion". Something that ran all the time, kind of like a program - "look at me! I'm wonderful!" (the personal self). It was embarrassing. I then felt as if somehow some aspect of consciousness detached and was turning around. Odd, because I was still looking forward out by eyes, in that sense. I felt a rush of intense happiness and "love", like nothing else in life, and also intense sadness, because I felt like if the "turning" completed, to face 180° to what was behind me, my existence as a human was done for eternity, and I wasn't ready for that. I was attached to hopes and dreams about "life". The feeling of saying goodbye to being a human being - to earth, trees, people, having hands, eyes, family, etc – the feeling of saying goodbye to that, forever, was so close and intense. It blew my mind that a state like this was accessible just sitting in my chair, perfect health, no drugs. Other things happened, I feel I got some thoughts from a higher place. This was a long time ago, and I don't think about it much anymore, but I can never be an atheist after that. I share it just to say that if you want to find something interesting within yourself, I think it can be done. It was not a final answer for me. About the "fear" of death, I did not feel fear, which surprised me when I thought about it. The only negative was the sadness.
Your glimpse is quite something. Its authenticity is unquestionable because it’s a personal experience. What we can discuss is the learning you have derived from it.
After reading it again a few times, I got a sense of why “death” seems to have an association. Your glimpse could be what those conscious final moments are as the body “gives up the ghost”. I think of Steve Jobs. He was reported (by those around him at his “death bed”) to have uttered “oh wow, oh wow” as he checked out.
Our consciousness is quite amazing. And when it goes “off track”, we get a glimpse of the extraordinary.
Why the sadness?
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Death
Jul 6, 2022 11:59:55 GMT -5
Post by sree on Jul 6, 2022 11:59:55 GMT -5
What do you mean? You don't have fear of death any more? There was a time when I used to assume that death was the 'big fear', but at some point I looked closely at it, and decided that it may be somewhat over-hyped. People risk their own lives, and not just to save others....people do all sorts of ridiculous dangerous things for the adventure of it. Even just getting in a car every day. And of course people take their own lives. And many old people die without fear. So I think there are considerably bigger fears. Maybe fears of being alone. Fears of being ashamed. Fears of suffering. Certainly I think humans do have a fear of death, but I see it as more a tip of the iceberg, it is a way our deeper fears manifest at a conscious level. And with animals, I've had plenty of pets over the years and witnessed them die without an ounce of fear, particularly when they are very old. Animals are wired to avoid certain sensations, and it makes sense to interpret this as a 'survival instinct', but I don't think this is an actual 'fear of death' as humans neurotically experience it. Perhaps the idea of 'survival instinct' deserves a more positive framing e.g 'the will to experience being alive'. I like what you said that fear of death is terrorism. There is this advice on the right way to live: be prepared for death.
Are we ever ready to die, drop everything and check out anytime without getting caught with our pants down?
Our conventional lifestyle has no provision for a dead stop and instant fade out. Rather, it is patterned on the flight of a commercial jetliner with a schedule from city of departure to city of destination. And our destination is somewhere past 80 years of age or more. We live like passengers on the way from JFK to Amsterdam: watching movies in our seats, chatting about anything but death with the person sitting next to us, or hitting on the stewardess at the back of the cabin with a drink in our hand.
The reason for our “fear of death” is that it is a bummer, a disappointment that wrecks our lives. Death? No, not now. Not ever. The body is not afraid of death because it has nothing going on for it. Life is all about the self and its agenda. Animals and plants have nothing going on for them either.
I am asking you, one self to another. What is causing this spiritual pursuit of the no-self state? |
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Death
Jul 6, 2022 12:16:46 GMT -5
Post by zendancer on Jul 6, 2022 12:16:46 GMT -5
There was a time when I used to assume that death was the 'big fear', but at some point I looked closely at it, and decided that it may be somewhat over-hyped. People risk their own lives, and not just to save others....people do all sorts of ridiculous dangerous things for the adventure of it. Even just getting in a car every day. And of course people take their own lives. And many old people die without fear. So I think there are considerably bigger fears. Maybe fears of being alone. Fears of being ashamed. Fears of suffering. Certainly I think humans do have a fear of death, but I see it as more a tip of the iceberg, it is a way our deeper fears manifest at a conscious level. And with animals, I've had plenty of pets over the years and witnessed them die without an ounce of fear, particularly when they are very old. Animals are wired to avoid certain sensations, and it makes sense to interpret this as a 'survival instinct', but I don't think this is an actual 'fear of death' as humans neurotically experience it. Perhaps the idea of 'survival instinct' deserves a more positive framing e.g 'the will to experience being alive'. I like what you said that fear of death is terrorism. There is this advice on the right way to live: be prepared for death.
Are we ever ready to die, drop everything and check out anytime without getting caught with our pants down?
Our conventional lifestyle has no provision for a dead stop and instant fade out. Rather, it is patterned on the flight of a commercial jetliner with a schedule from city of departure to city of destination. And our destination is somewhere past 80 years of age or more. We live like passengers on the way from JFK to Amsterdam: watching movies in our seats, chatting about anything but death with the person sitting next to us, or hitting on the stewardess at the back of the cabin with a drink in our hand.
The reason for our “fear of death” is that it is a bummer, a disappointment that wrecks our lives. Death? No, not now. Not ever. The body is not afraid of death because it has nothing going on for it. Life is all about the self and its agenda. Animals and plants have nothing going on for them either. I am asking you, one self to another. What is causing this spiritual pursuit of the no-self state? Curiosity, pure and simple. All it takes is one glimpse of the Infinite, and the fear of death disappears. |
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Death
Jul 6, 2022 12:23:39 GMT -5
Post by sree on Jul 6, 2022 12:23:39 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing your experience. The fear of death is really something, isn't it? I am open to whatever you have uncovered with regard to altered states of consciousness. We can always talk about it in a spirit of inquiry and exploration into the mystery of being human.
Fear of death is terrorism.
 There are many ways to these different states. The most benign and easiest to pursue is meditation, although that's not a great match for everyone. For decades I pursued these states unconsciously through sport and the pursuit of pleasure, especially time outdoors or even just walks in the City. I was a ski bum for several years leading up to and after having stumbled onto self-inquiry and meditation by reading Tolle's The Power of Now. The slopes are a great natural field for cultivating deep mental silence in the motion of the body. Tolle makes a suggestion in that book that one might be amused by the antics of mind if they are observed dispassionately and from a sort of distance. Tolle doesn't use the word "witness" but his suggestions along these lines are very much like Nisargadatta, who does. But TM, Zen meditation .. the experiences described by people who have followed those paths seem quite familiar to me in some ways. As are those by people who have experimented with psychedelics or even a few who are open and honest about having shed the medications after having been medically restrained because of what the doctors consider a mental break. Tolle talks about what I'll paraphrase as the insanity of the common mind, deep unconsciousness. In many respects I think some people who are labeled as crazy are far more sane than average. And the link between meditation and prayer is significant as well. Meditation states being similar to prayer but without asking for or apologizing for anything. A church service is sort of like a hypnosis, similar to what happens in a crowded nightclub with the lights flashing and music too loud to hear yourself think, or at a sports arena packed with tens of thousands of others, everyone with the same focus. Seems to me that many people who commonly experience these states aren't involved in any process of consciously questioning their sense of reality. Combining the two though, well, that can be quite the ride.  Why pursue these states? What is their significance to you? What do such states reveal about our real world?
Are these states a means to distance ourselves from the real world in which we live?
I thought meditation brings about enlightenment that alters perception of realty. Do you see life differently now? How has that change your lifestyle or your relationships with people in a way that is beneficial at least to you if not for all in your world?
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Death
Jul 6, 2022 12:32:18 GMT -5
Post by sree on Jul 6, 2022 12:32:18 GMT -5
There is this advice on the right way to live: be prepared for death.
Are we ever ready to die, drop everything and check out anytime without getting caught with our pants down?
Our conventional lifestyle has no provision for a dead stop and instant fade out. Rather, it is patterned on the flight of a commercial jetliner with a schedule from city of departure to city of destination. And our destination is somewhere past 80 years of age or more. We live like passengers on the way from JFK to Amsterdam: watching movies in our seats, chatting about anything but death with the person sitting next to us, or hitting on the stewardess at the back of the cabin with a drink in our hand.
The reason for our “fear of death” is that it is a bummer, a disappointment that wrecks our lives. Death? No, not now. Not ever. The body is not afraid of death because it has nothing going on for it. Life is all about the self and its agenda. Animals and plants have nothing going on for them either. I am asking you, one self to another. What is causing this spiritual pursuit of the no-self state? Curiosity, pure and simple. All it takes is one glimpse of the Infinite, and the fear of death disappears. Freedom from the fear of death. Would that imply freedom for the agenda of the self? With nothing going on, one's life would be empty of all worldly pursuits and concerns. Is that what you mean?
What about having to work for a living?
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Death
Jul 6, 2022 13:21:15 GMT -5
Post by someNOTHING! on Jul 6, 2022 13:21:15 GMT -5
Curiosity, pure and simple. All it takes is one glimpse of the Infinite, and the fear of death disappears. Freedom from the fear of death. Would that imply freedom for the agenda of the self? With nothing going on, one's life would be empty of all worldly pursuits and concerns. Is that what you mean? What about having to work for a living?
Curiosity, pure and simple. You are referring to bodily and psychological death at the same time, and then seemingly concerned with certain implications, which sound more aligned with the psychological/moral (i.e., "freedom for the agenda of the self"). We're not really here hoping everyone becomes a psychopath or sociopath. Dang, we got enough of them running around already, and they are all fully in the clutches of and serving the illusory self. And then, do you think that after psychological death, all worldly pursuits and concerns vanish and life collapses into some blob of nothing going on? Think of all the baggage and energy it takes to keep propping up the self you are identifying as. Contemplate this: *Latin persona "human being, person, personage; *a part in a drama, assumed character," originally "a mask, a false face," such as those of wood or clay, covering the whole head, worn by the actors in later Roman theater What is the Actor behind the mask of personality? Attune your attention to finding that, and be honest about what you see. Self-deception prolongs the suffering. Krishnamurti constantly focused on shedding light on the unconsciously conditioned self and its ramifications for society (the drama). |
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Jul 6, 2022 13:37:47 GMT -5
Post by zendancer on Jul 6, 2022 13:37:47 GMT -5
Curiosity, pure and simple. All it takes is one glimpse of the Infinite, and the fear of death disappears. Freedom from the fear of death. Would that imply freedom for the agenda of the self? With nothing going on, one's life would be empty of all worldly pursuits and concerns. Is that what you mean? What about having to work for a living?
No, freedom from the fear of death implies a loss of concern about self. In the absence of a personal "me" life continues, but without the usual sense of being a separate volitional entity at the center of whatever is happening. Sure, one can continue to work, but there's no "me" doing anything. Someone once asked Ramana if he should quit working and become a sannyasin. Ramana replied, "No. Continue to work but contemplate what vivifies the body." The fundamental question is "What is it that sees, hears, feels, thinks, and acts?" It isn't what most people think. |
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Death
Jul 6, 2022 13:52:14 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2022 13:52:14 GMT -5
Part of why I'm interested in "Nirvikalpa Samadhi" is that I think it may be like a "death experience", where you die before you die, so to speak, and find out directly what remains, if anything. There are conflicting reports – some gurus seem to talk about NS like it's just a deep meditation, others talk about like it's a bigger deal. Richard Rose said "You're going to walk through death, so you're going to need some vitality." I need to see for myself, but I haven't yet. NS is not a death experience. It is a deep state of meditation during which everything disappears except pure awareness without content. It is a blissful state of deep relaxation. I suspect that NS loosens up neural circuits in some unknown way because a lot of meditators report having CC's after experiencing NS. Followers of Ramakrishna were enamored of his ability to enter NS intermittently during ordinary daily life, but IMO such admiration was misplaced. Most meditators only fall into NS while doing sitting meditation, but Ramakrishna apparently fell into that state even in the midst of a sentence or while walking with his followers. He would stand in suspended animation like a statue for ten or twenty minutes lost to the world, and then snap out of it as if nothing had happened. That's highly unusual, but not something worthy of any special acclaim. To "die before you die" is a phrase pointing to SR rather than NS. The best explanation for how to attain NS is "Zen Training" by Katsuki Sekida. In that book he refers to NS as "absolute samadhi." I'm may be just playing with logic here, in a context where it won't work, but I wonder how it's possible to go to the most minimal state possible, where everything disappears, and yet somehow hang on to the "self", or not notice that it disappeared and yet "you/awareness" on another level remained. (?) In my past experience, I may have had an emotional reaction to something because of relative youth or personality type. I don't expect it to repeat or be the same today. I wonder if some of these emotional or woo-woo experiences are simply different minds and different personality types reacting to NS, or almost-NS. |
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Jul 6, 2022 13:57:35 GMT -5
Post by zendancer on Jul 6, 2022 13:57:35 GMT -5
There are many ways to these different states. The most benign and easiest to pursue is meditation, although that's not a great match for everyone. For decades I pursued these states unconsciously through sport and the pursuit of pleasure, especially time outdoors or even just walks in the City. I was a ski bum for several years leading up to and after having stumbled onto self-inquiry and meditation by reading Tolle's The Power of Now. The slopes are a great natural field for cultivating deep mental silence in the motion of the body. Tolle makes a suggestion in that book that one might be amused by the antics of mind if they are observed dispassionately and from a sort of distance. Tolle doesn't use the word "witness" but his suggestions along these lines are very much like Nisargadatta, who does. But TM, Zen meditation .. the experiences described by people who have followed those paths seem quite familiar to me in some ways. As are those by people who have experimented with psychedelics or even a few who are open and honest about having shed the medications after having been medically restrained because of what the doctors consider a mental break. Tolle talks about what I'll paraphrase as the insanity of the common mind, deep unconsciousness. In many respects I think some people who are labeled as crazy are far more sane than average. And the link between meditation and prayer is significant as well. Meditation states being similar to prayer but without asking for or apologizing for anything. A church service is sort of like a hypnosis, similar to what happens in a crowded nightclub with the lights flashing and music too loud to hear yourself think, or at a sports arena packed with tens of thousands of others, everyone with the same focus. Seems to me that many people who commonly experience these states aren't involved in any process of consciously questioning their sense of reality. Combining the two though, well, that can be quite the ride. Why pursue these states? What is their significance to you? What do such states reveal about our real world? Are these states a means to distance ourselves from the real world in which we live?
I thought meditation brings about enlightenment that alters perception of realty. Do you see life differently now? How has that change your lifestyle or your relationships with people in a way that is beneficial at least to you if not for all in your world?
1. Why pursue these states? Curiosity. (Some people fall into these states without knowing about them, so the idea of "pursuit" doesn't always apply) 2. What is their significance? They can reveal things that would otherwise remain unknown. 3. What do they reveal about our real world? That it is not what is usually imagined. 4. Are these states a means to distance ourselves from the real world? Just the opposite. One becomes fully immersed in being one-with "what is." 5. Meditation may or may not trigger existential realizations, but it does for many people. 6. Do you see (understand?) life differently now? Yes. 7. How has that changed your lifestyle or your relationships with people? Too many ways to enumerate, but most importantly--(1) no more questions or seeking, (2) no more efforting, (3) happy to be of service, (4) gratitude, etc. |
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Jul 6, 2022 14:06:58 GMT -5
Post by zendancer on Jul 6, 2022 14:06:58 GMT -5
NS is not a death experience. It is a deep state of meditation during which everything disappears except pure awareness without content. It is a blissful state of deep relaxation. I suspect that NS loosens up neural circuits in some unknown way because a lot of meditators report having CC's after experiencing NS. Followers of Ramakrishna were enamored of his ability to enter NS intermittently during ordinary daily life, but IMO such admiration was misplaced. Most meditators only fall into NS while doing sitting meditation, but Ramakrishna apparently fell into that state even in the midst of a sentence or while walking with his followers. He would stand in suspended animation like a statue for ten or twenty minutes lost to the world, and then snap out of it as if nothing had happened. That's highly unusual, but not something worthy of any special acclaim. To "die before you die" is a phrase pointing to SR rather than NS. The best explanation for how to attain NS is "Zen Training" by Katsuki Sekida. In that book he refers to NS as "absolute samadhi." I'm may be just playing with logic here, in a context where it won't work, but I wonder how it's possible to go to the most minimal state possible, where everything disappears, and yet somehow hang on to the "self", or not notice that it disappeared and yet "you/awareness" on another level remained. (?) In my past experience, I may have had an emotional reaction to something because of relative youth or personality type. I don't expect it to repeat or be the same today. I wonder if some of these emotional or woo-woo experiences are simply different minds and different personality types reacting to NS, or almost-NS. You can't go into NS and retain any sense of selfhood. That's because NS is a non-dual state of pure awareness with no separate observer of it. In fact, you can feel everything coalescing into a state of unity prior to the disappearance of everything. FWIW, I don't think of NS as a woo-woo state. It is more like an extremely deep state of relaxation and is blissful. There's not much to say about it because there's no content. Kensho is a different matter, and a deep kensho may have a lot of bells and whistles. Yes, each human is unique, so how people will react to existential insights will vary a great deal. Most people who have written about CC's (deep kensho events) have reported a lot of emotional response that usually includes both laughter and tears. |
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Death
Jul 6, 2022 14:39:40 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2022 14:39:40 GMT -5
I don't know what it was, but I guarantee you it wasn't "spacing out". More below. [...] About the "fear" of death, I did not feel fear, which surprised me when I thought about it. The only negative was the sadness.
Your glimpse is quite something. Its authenticity is unquestionable because it’s a personal experience. What we can discuss is the learning you have derived from it.
After reading it again a few times, I got a sense of why “death” seems to have an association. Your glimpse could be what those conscious final moments are as the body “gives up the ghost”. I think of Steve Jobs. He was reported (by those around him at his “death bed”) to have uttered “oh wow, oh wow” as he checked out.
Our consciousness is quite amazing. And when it goes “off track”, we get a glimpse of the extraordinary.
Why the sadness? I don't know. I might not have the same reaction today. It was many years ago, and as others have suggested it's better not to cling to or try to recreate anything. But at some point I hope to get some more insight. Interesting about Jobs. |
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Love it though. 
