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Post by laughter on Jul 5, 2022 17:27:41 GMT -5
What do you mean? You don't have fear of death any more? There was a time when I used to assume that death was the 'big fear', but at some point I looked closely at it, and decided that it may be somewhat over-hyped. People risk their own lives, and not just to save others....people do all sorts of ridiculous dangerous things for the adventure of it. Even just getting in a car every day. And of course people take their own lives. And many old people die without fear. So I think there are considerably bigger fears. Maybe fears of being alone. Fears of being ashamed. Fears of suffering. Certainly I think humans do have a fear of death, but I see it as more a tip of the iceberg, it is a way our deeper fears manifest at a conscious level. And with animals, I've had plenty of pets over the years and witnessed them die without an ounce of fear, particularly when they are very old. Animals are wired to avoid certain sensations, and it makes sense to interpret this as a 'survival instinct', but I don't think this is an actual 'fear of death' as humans neurotically experience it. Perhaps the idea of 'survival instinct' deserves a more positive framing e.g 'the will to experience being alive'. I like what you said that fear of death is terrorism. Young people often don't fear death because they're essentially oblivious to the possibility and it seems that there is a sort of clinical condition where even the survival instinct is suppressed. That doesn't account for all of the fearless, but some of them.  |
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Post by andrew on Jul 5, 2022 17:44:16 GMT -5
There was a time when I used to assume that death was the 'big fear', but at some point I looked closely at it, and decided that it may be somewhat over-hyped. People risk their own lives, and not just to save others....people do all sorts of ridiculous dangerous things for the adventure of it. Even just getting in a car every day. And of course people take their own lives. And many old people die without fear. So I think there are considerably bigger fears. Maybe fears of being alone. Fears of being ashamed. Fears of suffering. Certainly I think humans do have a fear of death, but I see it as more a tip of the iceberg, it is a way our deeper fears manifest at a conscious level. And with animals, I've had plenty of pets over the years and witnessed them die without an ounce of fear, particularly when they are very old. Animals are wired to avoid certain sensations, and it makes sense to interpret this as a 'survival instinct', but I don't think this is an actual 'fear of death' as humans neurotically experience it. Perhaps the idea of 'survival instinct' deserves a more positive framing e.g 'the will to experience being alive'. I like what you said that fear of death is terrorism. Young people often don't fear death because they're essentially oblivious to the possibility and it seems that there is a sort of clinical condition where even the survival instinct is suppressed. That doesn't account for all of the fearless, but some of them. These are all amazing, but the last one....at 9.37  www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pe7T-IgNbKA |
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Post by someNOTHING! on Jul 5, 2022 17:59:12 GMT -5
What do you mean? You don't have fear of death any more? There was a time when I used to assume that death was the 'big fear', but at some point I looked closely at it, and decided that it may be somewhat over-hyped. People risk their own lives, and not just to save others....people do all sorts of ridiculous dangerous things for the adventure of it. Even just getting in a car every day. And of course people take their own lives. And many old people die without fear. So I think there are considerably bigger fears. Maybe fears of being alone. Fears of being ashamed. Fears of suffering. Certainly I think humans do have a fear of death, but I see it as more a tip of the iceberg, it is a way our deeper fears manifest at a conscious level. And with animals, I've had plenty of pets over the years and witnessed them die without an ounce of fear, particularly when they are very old. Animals are wired to avoid certain sensations, and it makes sense to interpret this as a 'survival instinct', but I don't think this is an actual 'fear of death' as humans neurotically experience it. Perhaps the idea of 'survival instinct' deserves a more positive framing e.g 'the will to experience being alive'. I like what you said that fear of death is terrorism. I've read in several places that public speaking is numero uno. I also contemplated McKenna's assertion that it's actually the fear of "no self" that is closer to the core. And, of course, there's the saying, "People don't fear death, but the dying" which, ironically, everyone is doing, regardless of their awareness of it. The phenomenon of entropy provides a nuanced look at the physical level: "Real processes tend to go in the direction of increasing entropy. Aging can be envisioned as an irreversible process of entropy accumulation. Getting older means having less control of body functions, being more disordered. Death is the ultimate disorder, a state of maximum entropy". |
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Post by andrew on Jul 5, 2022 18:09:47 GMT -5
There was a time when I used to assume that death was the 'big fear', but at some point I looked closely at it, and decided that it may be somewhat over-hyped. People risk their own lives, and not just to save others....people do all sorts of ridiculous dangerous things for the adventure of it. Even just getting in a car every day. And of course people take their own lives. And many old people die without fear. So I think there are considerably bigger fears. Maybe fears of being alone. Fears of being ashamed. Fears of suffering. Certainly I think humans do have a fear of death, but I see it as more a tip of the iceberg, it is a way our deeper fears manifest at a conscious level. And with animals, I've had plenty of pets over the years and witnessed them die without an ounce of fear, particularly when they are very old. Animals are wired to avoid certain sensations, and it makes sense to interpret this as a 'survival instinct', but I don't think this is an actual 'fear of death' as humans neurotically experience it. Perhaps the idea of 'survival instinct' deserves a more positive framing e.g 'the will to experience being alive'. I like what you said that fear of death is terrorism. I've read in several places that public speaking is numero uno. I also contemplated McKenna's assertion that it's actually the fear of "no self" that is closer to the core. And, of course, there's the saying, "People don't fear death, but the dying" which, ironically, everyone is doing, regardless of their awareness of it. The phenomenon of entropy provides a nuanced look at the physical level: "Real processes tend to go in the direction of increasing entropy. Aging can be envisioned as an irreversible process of entropy accumulation. Getting older means having less control of body functions, being more disordered. Death is the ultimate disorder, a state of maximum entropy". Interesting, I hadn't looked at death from that angle before. And yes, I remember a Niz quote saying that people don't fear death itself, they fear the sense of 'I am going away' that they associate with death....and which of course also relates to the no-self fear. I've definitely experienced that fear, but even that is an interesting one, after all, we aren't scared of falling asleep each night, which in its own way, is 'self-annihilation'. In fact, many folks lay in bed with a pleasurable sense of 'I am going away'. So when I've looked at the 'no-self' fear, I think it relates more to stuff like....'what will people think of me in a no-self state' or 'how will I function in a no self state'....and those fears obviously don't apply to sleep. So my impression is that even the 'no self' fear isn't an inevitable one...if our apparent world was set up in such way that 'no self' was the norm, then dropping the self would be easy enough. Though if 'no self' was the cultural norm, then it begs the question as to whether the 'self' would even be part of our conditioning to start with. |
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Death
Jul 5, 2022 18:16:52 GMT -5
Post by sree on Jul 5, 2022 18:16:52 GMT -5
[...] I cannot corroborate your experiences, robertk's experience, or Krishnamurti's experiences. I think I know what they are. You guys were spacing out. I space out also but momentarily [...] I don't know what it was, but I guarantee you it wasn't "spacing out". More below. I didn't mean to ignore you here, but I'm taking some time to reassess my use of this forum. I have mixed feelings about sharing things that are personal, and feel almost sacred, in any environment, and more so on the internet if people are getting into competitive "debate" and dog-mount-dog dialogs. Recently it took a turn for the worse here when I debated some q-anon "Trump really won" types in a private thread and it turned to disdain and condescension. So I need a breather, but I can try to answer your question from above. I think the important point is that, if you are genuinely interested, you can discover some deep things within yourself. The saying "knock, and the door will open" ... there is truth to it. But it may be humbling. A bit about the glimpse... It started when I noticed a pattern in my mind of "me-assertion". Something that ran all the time, kind of like a program - "look at me! I'm wonderful!" (the personal self). It was embarrassing. I then felt as if somehow some aspect of consciousness detached and was turning around. Odd, because I was still looking forward out by eyes, in that sense. I felt a rush of intense happiness and "love", like nothing else in life, and also intense sadness, because I felt like if the "turning" completed, to face 180° to what was behind me, my existence as a human was done for eternity, and I wasn't ready for that. I was attached to hopes and dreams about "life". The feeling of saying goodbye to being a human being - to earth, trees, people, having hands, eyes, family, etc – the feeling of saying goodbye to that, forever, was so close and intense. It blew my mind that a state like this was accessible just sitting in my chair, perfect health, no drugs. Other things happened, I feel I got some thoughts from a higher place. This was a long time ago, and I don't think about it much anymore, but I can never be an atheist after that. I share it just to say that if you want to find something interesting within yourself, I think it can be done. It was not a final answer for me. About the "fear" of death, I did not feel fear, which surprised me when I thought about it. The only negative was the sadness. I did not mean to be dismissive of your experience, which I associated with that of laughter and Krishnamurti. I just checked the meaning of the phrase "spacing out" on the internet and it says: "to become inattentive, distracted, or mentally remote".
I would never consider Krishnamurti's "selfless state" experiences as distracted states. As I said, I can't corroborate your experience but my own fleeting moments were instances of oneness with whatever I was watching. I could have been "in the zone" referred to by artists, dancers, athletes, when they were "aligned" with a power that performed their feats of perfection.
Just as your experiences were not the outcome of contrivance, the restoration of harmony - in everyone's life as one holistic human organism comprising the human race - cannot be brought about by the self.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2022 18:21:27 GMT -5
Growing old is a pain in the ass. Love it though.  No doubt that when the body finally succumbs it will be a relief. |
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Death
Jul 5, 2022 18:29:41 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2022 18:29:41 GMT -5
[...] I cannot corroborate your experiences, robertk's experience, or Krishnamurti's experiences. I think I know what they are. You guys were spacing out. I space out also but momentarily [...] I don't know what it was, but I guarantee you it wasn't "spacing out". More below. I didn't mean to ignore you here, but I'm taking some time to reassess my use of this forum. I have mixed feelings about sharing things that are personal, and feel almost sacred, in any environment, and more so on the internet if people are getting into competitive "debate" and dog-mount-dog dialogs. Recently it took a turn for the worse here when I debated some q-anon "Trump really won" types in a private thread and it turned to disdain and condescension. So I need a breather, but I can try to answer your question from above. I think the important point is that, if you are genuinely interested, you can discover some deep things within yourself. The saying "knock, and the door will open" ... there is truth to it. But it may be humbling. A bit about the glimpse... It started when I noticed a pattern in my mind of "me-assertion". Something that ran all the time, kind of like a program - "look at me! I'm wonderful!" (the personal self). It was embarrassing. I then felt as if somehow some aspect of consciousness detached and was turning around. Odd, because I was still looking forward out by eyes, in that sense. I felt a rush of intense happiness and "love", like nothing else in life, and also intense sadness, because I felt like if the "turning" completed, to face 180° to what was behind me, my existence as a human was done for eternity, and I wasn't ready for that. I was attached to hopes and dreams about "life". The feeling of saying goodbye to being a human being - to earth, trees, people, having hands, eyes, family, etc – the feeling of saying goodbye to that, forever, was so close and intense. It blew my mind that a state like this was accessible just sitting in my chair, perfect health, no drugs. Other things happened, I feel I got some thoughts from a higher place. This was a long time ago, and I don't think about it much anymore, but I can never be an atheist after that. I share it just to say that if you want to find something interesting within yourself, I think it can be done. It was not a final answer for me. About the "fear" of death, I did not feel fear, which surprised me when I thought about it. The only negative was the sadness. That may be because it's locked from the inside. The intent to have it opened, is essentially the laying down of all of the protective mechanisms. |
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Post by someNOTHING! on Jul 5, 2022 18:32:20 GMT -5
I've read in several places that public speaking is numero uno. I also contemplated McKenna's assertion that it's actually the fear of "no self" that is closer to the core. And, of course, there's the saying, "People don't fear death, but the dying" which, ironically, everyone is doing, regardless of their awareness of it. The phenomenon of entropy provides a nuanced look at the physical level: "Real processes tend to go in the direction of increasing entropy. Aging can be envisioned as an irreversible process of entropy accumulation. Getting older means having less control of body functions, being more disordered. Death is the ultimate disorder, a state of maximum entropy". Interesting, I hadn't looked at death from that angle before. And yes, I remember a Niz quote saying that people don't fear death itself, they fear the sense of 'I am going away' that they associate with death....and which of course also relates to the no-self fear. I've definitely experienced that fear, but even that is an interesting one, after all, we aren't scared of falling asleep each night, which in its own way, is 'self-annihilation'. In fact, many folks lay in bed with a pleasurable sense of 'I am going away'. So when I've looked at the 'no-self' fear, I think it relates more to stuff like....'what will people think of me in a no-self state' or 'how will I function in a no self state'....and those fears obviously don't apply to sleep. So my impression is that even the 'no self' fear isn't an inevitable one...if our apparent world was set up in such way that 'no self' was the norm, then dropping the self would be easy enough. Though if 'no self' was the cultural norm, then it begs the question as to whether the 'self' would even be part of our conditioning to start with. And don't forget an orgasm, which has been alluded to as a "little death" with no self present at the moment of climax! /  /  Think there was even a docu about it, but never saw it. |
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Death
Jul 5, 2022 18:35:42 GMT -5
Post by someNOTHING! on Jul 5, 2022 18:35:42 GMT -5
Growing old is a pain in the ass. Love it though. No doubt that when the body finally succumbs it will be a relief. That's the proctologist.  But at least you love it.  |
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Death
Jul 5, 2022 18:54:31 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2022 18:54:31 GMT -5
Growing old is a pain in the ass. Love it though. No doubt that when the body finally succumbs it will be a relief. That's the proctologist. But at least you love it. The proctologist is just a habit of mind, it doesn't have to get involved. It's better to just recognize a situation, and respond. |
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Death
Jul 5, 2022 19:01:31 GMT -5
Post by someNOTHING! on Jul 5, 2022 19:01:31 GMT -5
That's the proctologist. But at least you love it. The proctologist is just a habit of mind, it doesn't have to get involved. It's better to just recognize a situation, and respond.  |
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Post by andrew on Jul 5, 2022 19:15:47 GMT -5
Interesting, I hadn't looked at death from that angle before. And yes, I remember a Niz quote saying that people don't fear death itself, they fear the sense of 'I am going away' that they associate with death....and which of course also relates to the no-self fear. I've definitely experienced that fear, but even that is an interesting one, after all, we aren't scared of falling asleep each night, which in its own way, is 'self-annihilation'. In fact, many folks lay in bed with a pleasurable sense of 'I am going away'. So when I've looked at the 'no-self' fear, I think it relates more to stuff like....'what will people think of me in a no-self state' or 'how will I function in a no self state'....and those fears obviously don't apply to sleep. So my impression is that even the 'no self' fear isn't an inevitable one...if our apparent world was set up in such way that 'no self' was the norm, then dropping the self would be easy enough. Though if 'no self' was the cultural norm, then it begs the question as to whether the 'self' would even be part of our conditioning to start with. And don't forget an orgasm, which has been alluded to as a "little death" with no self present at the moment of climax! / / Think there was even a docu about it, but never saw it. Good point, can't believe I missed that one! |
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Post by someNOTHING! on Jul 5, 2022 19:18:30 GMT -5
And don't forget an orgasm, which has been alluded to as a "little death" with no self present at the moment of climax! / / Think there was even a docu about it, but never saw it. Good point, can't believe I missed that one! "You" weren't there! OK, a bit of an annoying over-the-top expression (for my tastes, anyway), but he covers the key points. |
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Death
Jul 5, 2022 20:03:42 GMT -5
Post by sree on Jul 5, 2022 20:03:42 GMT -5
What do you mean? You don't have fear of death any more? Yes, that's what I mean. It doesn't mean the end of the survival instinct, but the survival instinct is an after-the-fact description tied to specific sorts of events. It also doesn't mean that I want to die anytime soon. 
Yes, I get that. My reason for not wanting to die is on account of my love of this life. Ok, the human suffering is horrible and it really messes up my day. God can keep his Heaven, I prefer this world of Caesar. I really have a good life because we have made it so wonderful to live. I have got to admit that I am a bit conflicted about this. I love the good life which is only possible if there are people making it wonderful for me.
Sitting at a table of a fine restaurant can't happen without the crew in the kitchen manned by people washing dishes, peeling vegetables, cooking all kinds of stuff for hours. And the finer the dish they put before me, the harder they slog. And this is just the dining experience in the west. In the east, life gets better.
Are there sailboats and golf courses in Heaven? What about fine horses to ride and and well-built cars to drive? Krishnamurti had a good life also. I believe I live better than him.
What is your reason for not wanting to die?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2022 6:19:42 GMT -5
The proctologist is just a habit of mind, it doesn't have to get involved. It's better to just recognize a situation, and respond. Just don't give yourself a cancer diagnosis before the doctor does. Hypochondria is a good example of an out of control obsessive mind. |
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