Death

[sree]

Jul 1, 2022 15:39:18 GMT -5 @robertc said:

Jul 1, 2022 10:00:19 GMT -5 sree said:

Your body is going to die. It's like me telling you that the airplane you are flying in is going to fail and disintegrate. All the world religions are handed down to us from people who had a different mindset shaped by an existential reality that is nothing like yours.

Your dog's existential reality is also nothing like yours. It does not know that it is living on planet Earth. Neither did the Buddha. Would you listen to your dog about Samadhi if it could talk? 

Needing to see for yourself is not unwise but don't take too long.The plane is going down.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you saying that the people who gave us the teachings about the pure state of awareness/consciousness called "nirvikalpa samadhi" are so different from me, that trying to take their ideas seriously is like trying to talk to a dog? But modern humans also talk about experiencing this state. Also, what makes you think that 2000 years ago people were in a "mindset" that is "nothing like [mine]". I doubt that's the case. We've got a lot of shiny technology but the basic human body-mind is about the same.

Yes, that is exactly right but only if the dog could speak and articulate its perception of reality in the English language.

Perennial truths do exist but they are not to be found in spiritual scammers who are hawking that ancient stuff to you today.

Modern humans talk about experiencing “this state” is not different from charismatic people speaking in tongues. Whatever their faiths, modern humans testify to experiences in an altered state. If their pitch resonates with you, you swallow it. Selling spiritualism is like selling cars.

Our consciousness is conditioned by knowledge that grows with time. Perception is reality. We perceived ourselves at the center of the universe. Now, we see that we revolve around the Sun. How can you reject this argument?

If you could be transported back to the time of the Buddha and you tell him that humans can go to the moon, he and his band of monks would laugh at you. And that would be sufficient evidence to convince you to reject the Dharma. But we are not rational beings. Chances are, the Buddha could still sweep you off your feet like a modern-day rock star.

[Deleted]

Jul 1, 2022 22:59:28 GMT -5 sree said:

Jul 1, 2022 15:39:18 GMT -5 @robertc said:

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you saying that the people who gave us the teachings about the pure state of awareness/consciousness called "nirvikalpa samadhi" are so different from me, that trying to take their ideas seriously is like trying to talk to a dog? But modern humans also talk about experiencing this state. Also, what makes you think that 2000 years ago people were in a "mindset" that is "nothing like [mine]". I doubt that's the case. We've got a lot of shiny technology but the basic human body-mind is about the same.

Yes, that is exactly right but only if the dog could speak and articulate its perception of reality in the English language.

Perennial truths do exist but they are not to be found in spiritual scammers who are hawking that ancient stuff to you today.

Modern humans talk about experiencing “this state” is not different from charismatic people speaking in tongues. Whatever their faiths, modern humans testify to experiences in an altered state. If their pitch resonates with you, you swallow it. Selling spiritualism is like selling cars.

Our consciousness is conditioned by knowledge that grows with time. Perception is reality. We perceived ourselves at the center of the universe. Now, we see that we revolve around the Sun. How can you reject this argument?

If you could be transported back to the time of the Buddha and you tell him that humans can go to the moon, he and his band of monks would laugh at you. And that would be sufficient evidence to convince you to reject the Dharma. But we are not rational beings. Chances are, the Buddha could still sweep you off your feet like a modern-day rock star.

I know it's more than charismatic car salesman, because 1. I had the intuition about it myself, before reading about accounts from others. No one "sold" me on it. 2. I've glimpsed the state myself. While not a complete resolution, it was intense and enough to show me that this is more than "scammers" and car salesman. 

Are you here to crap on people's spiritual paths and interests, while not really knowing what they're talking about? Good luck with that.

[sree]

Jul 2, 2022 13:45:03 GMT -5 @robertc said:

Jul 1, 2022 22:59:28 GMT -5 sree said:

Yes, that is exactly right but only if the dog could speak and articulate its perception of reality in the English language.

Perennial truths do exist but they are not to be found in spiritual scammers who are hawking that ancient stuff to you today.

Modern humans talk about experiencing “this state” is not different from charismatic people speaking in tongues. Whatever their faiths, modern humans testify to experiences in an altered state. If their pitch resonates with you, you swallow it. Selling spiritualism is like selling cars.

Our consciousness is conditioned by knowledge that grows with time. Perception is reality. We perceived ourselves at the center of the universe. Now, we see that we revolve around the Sun. How can you reject this argument?

If you could be transported back to the time of the Buddha and you tell him that humans can go to the moon, he and his band of monks would laugh at you. And that would be sufficient evidence to convince you to reject the Dharma. But we are not rational beings. Chances are, the Buddha could still sweep you off your feet like a modern-day rock star.

I know it's more than charismatic car salesman, because 1. I had the intuition about it myself, before reading about accounts from others. No one "sold" me on it. 2. I've glimpsed the state myself. While not a complete resolution, it was intense and enough to show me that this is more than "scammers" and car salesman. 

Are you here to crap on people's spiritual paths and interests, while not really knowing what they're talking about? Good luck with that.

Whoa. I got blind-sided back there when you mentioned Nirvikalpa Samadhi. I have checked and opted out of conventional spirituality a long time ago. I don't condemn it as a practice for other people. Freedom of worship is protected by our Constitution, right?

This thread is about Death. I have studied Krishnamurti's take of this matter and found it compelling. He talked about "dying before the body dies" (somewhat similar to what you said in your Post 497 of June 30).

The state of death - in which the personal self is absent and ceases to exist while the body is fully functioning in the real world - could have been subjected to empirical investigation and authenticated. Such a study was never done even though Krishnamurti was accessible to scientists and academics (Dr. Bohm and others). My conviction in this regard is that the state "when the self is not" is a normal human condition unconnected to esoteric beliefs. The fact that it rarely occurs in daily life is tragic.

Could you say more about your glimpses?   

 

[sree]

Jul 1, 2022 16:28:38 GMT -5 laughter said:

Jul 1, 2022 12:32:11 GMT -5 sree said:

Being polite is an excuse for caving into social conditioning. In this case, it is mindless conformity to a norm. No criticism here, just an observation.

One time, I was on my way walking through the small seaside town of Port Dickson on the Malacca Straits. I came across an elderly Tamil sitting on the grassy ground by the roadside. On seeing him, I hesitated (my mistake). Our eyes met and he stuck out his hand to beg. I could have given something, coins in my pocket or even a ringgit (local dollar) and moved on. It's the same as being polite, being the good guy, and conforming. I didn't. The psychological compulsion to get with the program caught my attention.

I was reading Krishnamurti at the time, and watching thought was central to his teaching. It was egging me to give to the poor, the Tamil, the evil in my mind that must be dealt with. The old man implored and I just stood there and watched. After a minute of non-action, he got uncomfortable. Me also, due to the guilt of heartlessness tearing me up inside. I was getting tired standing there and so was his out-stretched hand. I saw a tree stump next to me and sat down to keep up with my vigil. The old man, puzzled by the situation, got uncomfortable. He lowered his hand, sat there before me for a few moments, then got up and walked unsteadily away. I felt horrible. I was being cruel. Just when I was coming to the conclusion that watching thought was silly, something on the ground where the Tamil was sitting, caught my eye. It was an empty bottle of cheap toddy, a local poor man's alcohol. He was sitting on it so I couldn't see it.

Ok, I survived the Maya of the rich man poor man gauntlet of loving-kindness in which mankind is caught. Did that confer upon me the liberation from suffering? No. Now, I have to deal with and get through another level of hell: compassion of the sage (as Reefs called it) in joining my neighbor in his time of grief.

What do you think, laughter? Shall I become the sage and comply with my neighbor's call to grief over his wife's passing or be a cold-hearted sonovabitch and ignore his RSVP invite to attend Martha's "Celebration of Life" gathering?             

As with discovering the old Tamil's game, I have a feeling that there is neither grief nor mourning involved here. Krishnamurti called it "seeing truth in the false". Freedom from being a sucker is what it is.

Thanks for recounting that. My "yes" there was to your last question: "Is it possible to live together without grief?", not the first one about polity.

The end of such suffering in what I described there is also the end of agonizing about decisions or 2nd-guessing or regretting them .. which doesn't mean that you can't learn from your mistakes, similarly to how the end of the fear of death is not the end of the survival instinct.

I used to kill the mice in my house, now I catch them, drive them to a forest and let them go. Is that any less cruel? Cruelty is a mind-made construct, and that's not to say that it's not sometimes an apt one, but that alternative perspective I suggested, and those potential altered states of consciousness, both put cruelty into perspective and make it far less likely that you'll ever engage in it yourself, certainly not deliberately or carelessly, although, in the infinite game, nothing is ever completely out of the question.

There are two topics (in bold above) I would like to explore with you. Since this thread is about death, let's deal with the second one here. We can take up "grief" in another thread.

I think "fear of death" is the survival instinct. The latter is a non-volitional, reflexive response that kicks in when the body is endangered.

Fear of death has nothing to do with the body but everything to do with the self, the person, the psychological entity called laughter or sree. This is why Martha - at great expense, as well as, misery to herself and her family - went on living for ten more years after being diagnosed for Stage 4 lung cancer. To her credit, she was always cheerful even when she lost weight and looked better (physically). The final 6 months she disappeared, never came out of her house.

Krishnamurti said that thought breeds fear. Wishful thinkers believe that being aware of the fact that the self is an illusion frees the impersonal observer from fear. They wish.

Death of the body is not an idea. If it happens in sleep, great. In such an event, you don't have a say and won't know it when it happens.

Overcoming the fear death is what drives people into spirituality. Zen. The Bushido moral code defines the way of the warrior: he who is afraid of death, lives like a dog.

I don't know about you, but I have been feeling like a mutt in a dog pound all my life.  

 

 

[laughter]

Jul 4, 2022 15:41:35 GMT -5 sree said:

Jul 1, 2022 16:28:38 GMT -5 laughter said:

Thanks for recounting that. My "yes" there was to your last question: "Is it possible to live together without grief?", not the first one about polity.

The end of such suffering in what I described there is also the end of agonizing about decisions or 2nd-guessing or regretting them .. which doesn't mean that you can't learn from your mistakes, similarly to how the end of the fear of death is not the end of the survival instinct.

I used to kill the mice in my house, now I catch them, drive them to a forest and let them go. Is that any less cruel? Cruelty is a mind-made construct, and that's not to say that it's not sometimes an apt one, but that alternative perspective I suggested, and those potential altered states of consciousness, both put cruelty into perspective and make it far less likely that you'll ever engage in it yourself, certainly not deliberately or carelessly, although, in the infinite game, nothing is ever completely out of the question.

There are two topics (in bold above) I would like to explore with you. Since this thread is about death, let's deal with the second one here. We can take up "grief" in another thread.

I think "fear of death" is the survival instinct. The latter is a non-volitional, reflexive response that kicks in when the body is endangered.

Fear of death has nothing to do with the body but everything to do with the self, the person, the psychological entity called laughter or sree. This is why Martha - at great expense, as well as, misery to herself and her family - went on living for ten more years after being diagnosed for Stage 4 lung cancer. To her credit, she was always cheerful even when she lost weight and looked better (physically). The final 6 months she disappeared, never came out of her house.

Krishnamurti said that thought breeds fear. Wishful thinkers believe that being aware of the fact that the self is an illusion frees the impersonal observer from fear. They wish.

Death of the body is not an idea. If it happens in sleep, great. In such an event, you don't have a say and won't know it when it happens.

Overcoming the fear death is what drives people into spirituality. Zen. The Bushido moral code defines the way of the warrior: he who is afraid of death, lives like a dog.

I don't know about you, but I have been feeling like a mutt in a dog pound all my life.  

 

 

Kant relate, sorry, no, I've always been rather enthusiastic about life. Even during times that I suffered, even now, if I experience pain, but it goes differently now.

I accidentally stumbled onto and into meditation and self-inquiry about 13 years back, and had this funny, rather deep experience that lasted for several months off and on to one degree or another and it lingered for years afterward. At times I was walking, talking and acting all without a sense of centered self. With no sense of "I". I sometimes joke that it's one of those "ya' kinda' had to not have been there deals". It was quite blissful.

As it started to fade I got curious and took up meditation a bit more deliberately. I went looking for the fear of death that is secondary, and based on existential dread, and it's gone. I recall reading something in my late 20's where the author wrote something like this:

"One day, although I'd never thought of it before, I considered the possibility of my own death. After that day, the thought would recur to me, and more often as time went on, until, a time came when there wasn't a day where the thought did not occur to me."

Perhaps it was a sort of hypnotic suggestion, but I found myself in a similar arc. And not only that, on occasion I'd contemplate, rather deeply, the notion that I'd cease to exist, and it would fill me with a sort of visceral panic, complete with an adrenaline rush and elevated heart rate. Would always pass quite quickly, and happened only maybe a half dozen times that I recall, but it was rather unforgettable.

My life wasn't threatened during those moments, the panic was completely mind-made at the simple contemplation of the inevitable. This is one perspective on the distinction between the "fear of death", on one hand, and the "survival instinct", on the other. My body/mind, in those moments, mistook the anticipation of death and reacted as you'd expect during an episode of survival instinct in response to a dire event.

Another perspective on the distinction is the fact of existential dread. At the root of existential dread is the survival instinct, a sort of depression and anxiety not in response to any immediate threat, but again, to the inevitable.

I was quite surprised by the disappearance of all of this. It wasn't anything I expected. It's why I've been trying to interest you in the topic of altered states of consciousness.

[sree]

Jul 4, 2022 19:43:30 GMT -5 laughter said:

Jul 4, 2022 15:41:35 GMT -5 sree said:

There are two topics (in bold above) I would like to explore with you. Since this thread is about death, let's deal with the second one here. We can take up "grief" in another thread.

I think "fear of death" is the survival instinct. The latter is a non-volitional, reflexive response that kicks in when the body is endangered.

Fear of death has nothing to do with the body but everything to do with the self, the person, the psychological entity called laughter or sree. This is why Martha - at great expense, as well as, misery to herself and her family - went on living for ten more years after being diagnosed for Stage 4 lung cancer. To her credit, she was always cheerful even when she lost weight and looked better (physically). The final 6 months she disappeared, never came out of her house.

Krishnamurti said that thought breeds fear. Wishful thinkers believe that being aware of the fact that the self is an illusion frees the impersonal observer from fear. They wish.

Death of the body is not an idea. If it happens in sleep, great. In such an event, you don't have a say and won't know it when it happens.

Overcoming the fear death is what drives people into spirituality. Zen. The Bushido moral code defines the way of the warrior: he who is afraid of death, lives like a dog.

I don't know about you, but I have been feeling like a mutt in a dog pound all my life.  

 

 

Kant relate, sorry, no, I've always been rather enthusiastic about life. Even during times that I suffered, even now, if I experience pain, but it goes differently now.

I accidentally stumbled onto and into meditation and self-inquiry about 13 years back, and had this funny, rather deep experience that lasted for several months off and on to one degree or another and it lingered for years afterward. At times I was walking, talking and acting all without a sense of centered self. With no sense of "I". I sometimes joke that it's one of those "ya' kinda' had to not have been there deals". It was quite blissful.

As it started to fade I got curious and took up meditation a bit more deliberately. I went looking for the fear of death that is secondary, and based on existential dread, and it's gone. I recall reading something in my late 20's where the author wrote something like this:

"One day, although I'd never thought of it before, I considered the possibility of my own death. After that day, the thought would recur to me, and more often as time went on, until, a time came when there wasn't a day where the thought did not occur to me."

Perhaps it was a sort of hypnotic suggestion, but I found myself in a similar arc. And not only that, on occasion I'd contemplate, rather deeply, the notion that I'd cease to exist, and it would fill me with a sort of visceral panic, complete with an adrenaline rush and elevated heart rate. Would always pass quite quickly, and happened only maybe a half dozen times that I recall, but it was rather unforgettable.

My life wasn't threatened during those moments, the panic was completely mind-made at the simple contemplation of the inevitable. This is one perspective on the distinction between the "fear of death", on one hand, and the "survival instinct", on the other. My body/mind, in those moments, mistook the anticipation of death and reacted as you'd expect during an episode of survival instinct in response to a dire event.

Another perspective on the distinction is the fact of existential dread. At the root of existential dread is the survival instinct, a sort of depression and anxiety not in response to any immediate threat, but again, to the inevitable.

I was quite surprised by the disappearance of all of this. It wasn't anything I expected. It's why I've been trying to interest you in the topic of altered states of consciousness.

Thanks for sharing your experience. The fear of death is really something, isn't it? I am open to whatever you have uncovered with regard to altered states of consciousness. We can always talk about it in a spirit of inquiry and exploration into the mystery of being human.

Fear of death is terrorism.

[sree]

Jul 4, 2022 19:43:30 GMT -5 laughter said:

Jul 4, 2022 15:41:35 GMT -5 sree said:

There are two topics (in bold above) I would like to explore with you. Since this thread is about death, let's deal with the second one here. We can take up "grief" in another thread.

I think "fear of death" is the survival instinct. The latter is a non-volitional, reflexive response that kicks in when the body is endangered.

Fear of death has nothing to do with the body but everything to do with the self, the person, the psychological entity called laughter or sree. This is why Martha - at great expense, as well as, misery to herself and her family - went on living for ten more years after being diagnosed for Stage 4 lung cancer. To her credit, she was always cheerful even when she lost weight and looked better (physically). The final 6 months she disappeared, never came out of her house.

Krishnamurti said that thought breeds fear. Wishful thinkers believe that being aware of the fact that the self is an illusion frees the impersonal observer from fear. They wish.

Death of the body is not an idea. If it happens in sleep, great. In such an event, you don't have a say and won't know it when it happens.

Overcoming the fear death is what drives people into spirituality. Zen. The Bushido moral code defines the way of the warrior: he who is afraid of death, lives like a dog.

I don't know about you, but I have been feeling like a mutt in a dog pound all my life.  

 

 

Kant relate, sorry, no, I've always been rather enthusiastic about life. Even during times that I suffered, even now, if I experience pain, but it goes differently now.

I accidentally stumbled onto and into meditation and self-inquiry about 13 years back, and had this funny, rather deep experience that lasted for several months off and on to one degree or another and it lingered for years afterward. At times I was walking, talking and acting all without a sense of centered self. With no sense of "I". I sometimes joke that it's one of those "ya' kinda' had to not have been there deals". It was quite blissful.

As it started to fade I got curious and took up meditation a bit more deliberately. I went looking for the fear of death that is secondary, and based on existential dread, and it's gone. I recall reading something in my late 20's where the author wrote something like this:

"One day, although I'd never thought of it before, I considered the possibility of my own death. After that day, the thought would recur to me, and more often as time went on, until, a time came when there wasn't a day where the thought did not occur to me."

Perhaps it was a sort of hypnotic suggestion, but I found myself in a similar arc. And not only that, on occasion I'd contemplate, rather deeply, the notion that I'd cease to exist, and it would fill me with a sort of visceral panic, complete with an adrenaline rush and elevated heart rate. Would always pass quite quickly, and happened only maybe a half dozen times that I recall, but it was rather unforgettable.

My life wasn't threatened during those moments, the panic was completely mind-made at the simple contemplation of the inevitable. This is one perspective on the distinction between the "fear of death", on one hand, and the "survival instinct", on the other. My body/mind, in those moments, mistook the anticipation of death and reacted as you'd expect during an episode of survival instinct in response to a dire event.

Another perspective on the distinction is the fact of existential dread. At the root of existential dread is the survival instinct, a sort of depression and anxiety not in response to any immediate threat, but again, to the inevitable.

I was quite surprised by the disappearance of all of this. It wasn't anything I expected. It's why I've been trying to interest you in the topic of altered states of consciousness.

I am not a depressive. The regrettable state of the world doesn't stop me from living well. Having fun is something else.

Your experience of the "selfless state" was reported by Krishnamurti in his Notebook and Journal. Robertk also testified that he had direct experience of it. We all assert that the self is an illusion. This is not a big deal. Look at the mirror. All you see is the human body. But when you are not looking at the mirror, the person repossesses the body and reasserts itself as the living entity. This is a rational thing to do, and it is not unspiritual to live as a person. It is the irrational personal responses that are indicative of an unwholesome affliction. This mental sickness is akin to an actor who has become Napoleon, the part he is playing.

This is why attentiveness is important when living in a world where everyone has become the part they are playing. When that happens, selfishness reigns supreme. The human body is relegated to being a tool of the person. Tools are dispensable and when they are not yours, you don't care if they are mutilated or destroyed.

Yesterday, a mass killing happened in Chicago. The shooter didn't care about the bodies he shot up. Neither do the people in the community and the nation. It's all about grieving and assigning blame to exact retribution. It was reported as the 309th mass shooting in 2022. What about the other conditions we create that subject the human body to harm?

Do you know where I am going with this? Let me spell it out. And don't hesitate to correct me if I am deluded. Craziness is the cause of human suffering and we need to help each other end it.

In those times when you lost the sense of self, it must have been pleasant; otherwise, you wouldn't be trying to recover them. I cannot corroborate your experiences, robertk's experience, or Krishnamurti's experiences. I think I know what they are. You guys were spacing out. I space out also but momentarily when I am feeling great. And because my experiences were fleeting, I never got into that zone when the self was evidently absent.

In a world that we have created for ourselves, a world of constant toiling for a living, a world of fierce competition for resources and military superiority, a world of insecurity and violence, the mind is constantly working overtime and under pressure to protect the self, its family, its possessions, its emotional survival. If we all want to space out, we must clean up our act and make our world a safe place for all. Humanity – like the body - is an organism. If one cell is cancerous, the entire body is sick.

There is no such thing as spiritual bliss for one guy through meditation. Can it happen? Sure. It’s no different from having a billion dollars and living like a king. I would rather have the money.

[sree]

Jul 4, 2022 19:43:30 GMT -5 laughter said:

Jul 4, 2022 15:41:35 GMT -5 sree said:

There are two topics (in bold above) I would like to explore with you. Since this thread is about death, let's deal with the second one here. We can take up "grief" in another thread.

I think "fear of death" is the survival instinct. The latter is a non-volitional, reflexive response that kicks in when the body is endangered.

Fear of death has nothing to do with the body but everything to do with the self, the person, the psychological entity called laughter or sree. This is why Martha - at great expense, as well as, misery to herself and her family - went on living for ten more years after being diagnosed for Stage 4 lung cancer. To her credit, she was always cheerful even when she lost weight and looked better (physically). The final 6 months she disappeared, never came out of her house.

Krishnamurti said that thought breeds fear. Wishful thinkers believe that being aware of the fact that the self is an illusion frees the impersonal observer from fear. They wish.

Death of the body is not an idea. If it happens in sleep, great. In such an event, you don't have a say and won't know it when it happens.

Overcoming the fear death is what drives people into spirituality. Zen. The Bushido moral code defines the way of the warrior: he who is afraid of death, lives like a dog.

I don't know about you, but I have been feeling like a mutt in a dog pound all my life.  

 

 

Kant relate, sorry, no, I've always been rather enthusiastic about life. Even during times that I suffered, even now, if I experience pain, but it goes differently now.

I accidentally stumbled onto and into meditation and self-inquiry about 13 years back, and had this funny, rather deep experience that lasted for several months off and on to one degree or another and it lingered for years afterward. At times I was walking, talking and acting all without a sense of centered self. With no sense of "I". I sometimes joke that it's one of those "ya' kinda' had to not have been there deals". It was quite blissful.

As it started to fade I got curious and took up meditation a bit more deliberately. I went looking for the fear of death that is secondary, and based on existential dread, and it's gone. I recall reading something in my late 20's where the author wrote something like this:

"One day, although I'd never thought of it before, I considered the possibility of my own death. After that day, the thought would recur to me, and more often as time went on, until, a time came when there wasn't a day where the thought did not occur to me."

Perhaps it was a sort of hypnotic suggestion, but I found myself in a similar arc. And not only that, on occasion I'd contemplate, rather deeply, the notion that I'd cease to exist, and it would fill me with a sort of visceral panic, complete with an adrenaline rush and elevated heart rate. Would always pass quite quickly, and happened only maybe a half dozen times that I recall, but it was rather unforgettable.

My life wasn't threatened during those moments, the panic was completely mind-made at the simple contemplation of the inevitable. This is one perspective on the distinction between the "fear of death", on one hand, and the "survival instinct", on the other. My body/mind, in those moments, mistook the anticipation of death and reacted as you'd expect during an episode of survival instinct in response to a dire event.

Another perspective on the distinction is the fact of existential dread. At the root of existential dread is the survival instinct, a sort of depression and anxiety not in response to any immediate threat, but again, to the inevitable.

I was quite surprised by the disappearance of all of this. It wasn't anything I expected. It's why I've been trying to interest you in the topic of altered states of consciousness.

What do you mean? You don't have fear of death any more?

[sree]

Ending of the self, the selfless state, or dying before the body dies as Krishnamurti put it, is a state of bliss. This is my take on what can happen. It is not a testimony of direct experience on my part.

The self is a state of awareness of the observer when the need to act brings forth the actor. When there is no need to act in response to needs of the body, the actor fades out, and there is just a state of awareness in which the self is not.

What is the state of awareness like when the self ceases to exist? Krishnamurti asked this question in another way. "What is the nature of the mind of the man who has stepped out of the stream of sorrow?"

[zendancer]

Jun 30, 2022 17:36:58 GMT -5 @robertc said:

Part of why I'm interested in "Nirvikalpa Samadhi" is that I think it may be like a "death experience", where you die before you die, so to speak, and find out directly what remains, if anything. There are conflicting reports – some gurus seem to talk about NS like it's just a deep meditation, others talk about like it's a bigger deal. Richard Rose said "You're going to walk through death, so you're going to need some vitality." I need to see for myself, but I haven't yet.

NS is not a death experience. It is a deep state of meditation during which everything disappears except pure awareness without content. It is a blissful state of deep relaxation. I suspect that NS loosens up neural circuits in some unknown way because a lot of meditators report having CC's after experiencing NS.

Followers of Ramakrishna were enamored of his ability to enter NS intermittently during ordinary daily life, but IMO such admiration was misplaced. Most meditators only fall into NS while doing sitting meditation, but Ramakrishna apparently fell into that state even in the midst of a sentence or while walking with his followers. He would stand in suspended animation like a statue for ten or twenty minutes lost to the world, and then snap out of it as if nothing had happened. That's highly unusual, but not something worthy of any special acclaim.

To "die before you die" is a phrase pointing to SR rather than NS.

The best explanation for how to attain NS is "Zen Training" by Katsuki Sekida. In that book he refers to NS as "absolute samadhi."

[andrew]

Jul 5, 2022 13:12:32 GMT -5 sree said:

Jul 4, 2022 19:43:30 GMT -5 laughter said:

Kant relate, sorry, no, I've always been rather enthusiastic about life. Even during times that I suffered, even now, if I experience pain, but it goes differently now.

I accidentally stumbled onto and into meditation and self-inquiry about 13 years back, and had this funny, rather deep experience that lasted for several months off and on to one degree or another and it lingered for years afterward. At times I was walking, talking and acting all without a sense of centered self. With no sense of "I". I sometimes joke that it's one of those "ya' kinda' had to not have been there deals". It was quite blissful.

As it started to fade I got curious and took up meditation a bit more deliberately. I went looking for the fear of death that is secondary, and based on existential dread, and it's gone. I recall reading something in my late 20's where the author wrote something like this:

"One day, although I'd never thought of it before, I considered the possibility of my own death. After that day, the thought would recur to me, and more often as time went on, until, a time came when there wasn't a day where the thought did not occur to me."

Perhaps it was a sort of hypnotic suggestion, but I found myself in a similar arc. And not only that, on occasion I'd contemplate, rather deeply, the notion that I'd cease to exist, and it would fill me with a sort of visceral panic, complete with an adrenaline rush and elevated heart rate. Would always pass quite quickly, and happened only maybe a half dozen times that I recall, but it was rather unforgettable.

My life wasn't threatened during those moments, the panic was completely mind-made at the simple contemplation of the inevitable. This is one perspective on the distinction between the "fear of death", on one hand, and the "survival instinct", on the other. My body/mind, in those moments, mistook the anticipation of death and reacted as you'd expect during an episode of survival instinct in response to a dire event.

Another perspective on the distinction is the fact of existential dread. At the root of existential dread is the survival instinct, a sort of depression and anxiety not in response to any immediate threat, but again, to the inevitable.

I was quite surprised by the disappearance of all of this. It wasn't anything I expected. It's why I've been trying to interest you in the topic of altered states of consciousness.

What do you mean? You don't have fear of death any more?

There was a time when I used to assume that death was the 'big fear', but at some point I looked closely at it, and decided that it may be somewhat over-hyped. People risk their own lives, and not just to save others....people do all sorts of ridiculous dangerous things for the adventure of it. Even just getting in a car every day. And of course people take their own lives. And many old people die without fear. So I think there are considerably bigger fears. Maybe fears of being alone. Fears of being ashamed. Fears of suffering. Certainly I think humans do have a fear of death, but I see it as more a tip of the iceberg, it is a way our deeper fears manifest at a conscious level.

And with animals, I've had plenty of pets over the years and witnessed them die without an ounce of fear, particularly when they are very old. Animals are wired to avoid certain sensations, and it makes sense to interpret this as a 'survival instinct', but I don't think this is an actual 'fear of death' as humans neurotically experience it. Perhaps the idea of 'survival instinct' deserves a more positive framing e.g 'the will to experience being alive'.

I like what you said that fear of death is terrorism.

[Deleted]

Jul 5, 2022 9:39:47 GMT -5 sree said:

Jul 4, 2022 19:43:30 GMT -5 laughter said:

[...]

[...] I cannot corroborate your experiences, robertk's experience, or Krishnamurti's experiences. I think I know what they are. You guys were spacing out. I space out also but momentarily [...]

I don't know what it was, but I guarantee you it wasn't "spacing out". More below.

I didn't mean to ignore you here, but I'm taking some time to reassess my use of this forum. I have mixed feelings about sharing things that are personal, and feel almost sacred, in any environment, and more so on the internet if people are getting into competitive "debate" and dog-mount-dog dialogs. Recently it took a turn for the worse here when I debated some q-anon "Trump really won" types in a private thread and it turned to disdain and condescension. So I need a breather, but I can try to answer your question from above. 

I think the important point is that, if you are genuinely interested, you can discover some deep things within yourself. The saying "knock, and the door will open" ... there is truth to it. But it may be humbling. 

A bit about the glimpse... It started when I noticed a pattern in my mind of "me-assertion". Something that ran all the time, kind of like a program - "look at me! I'm wonderful!" (the personal self). It was embarrassing. I then felt as if somehow some aspect of consciousness detached and was turning around. Odd, because I was still looking forward out by eyes, in that sense. I felt a rush of intense happiness and "love", like nothing else in life, and also intense sadness, because I felt like if the "turning" completed, to face 180° to what was behind me, my existence as a human was done for eternity, and I wasn't ready for that. I was attached to hopes and dreams about "life". The feeling of saying goodbye to being a human being - to earth, trees, people, having hands, eyes, family, etc – the feeling of saying goodbye to that, forever, was so close and intense. It blew my mind that a state like this was accessible just sitting in my chair, perfect health, no drugs. Other things happened, I feel I got some thoughts from a higher place. 

This was a long time ago, and I don't think about it much anymore, but I can never be an atheist after that. I share it just to say that if you want to find something interesting within yourself, I think it can be done. It was not a final answer for me. 

About the "fear" of death, I did not feel fear, which surprised me when I thought about it. The only negative was the sadness.

[Deleted]

I want to add, because I may have emphasized the death and sadness part too much...

At the same time, I felt an incredible lightness and happiness. It was as a huge release, it felt transcendental, like all weight was removed from my shoulders. Very positive. A kind of energy was flowing through the body. 

edit: and of course I was crying...  
edit2: this happened when I sat down to "meditate". I was just sitting in my office chair. But that bit of "intent" did get it started.

[laughter]

Jul 4, 2022 23:26:39 GMT -5 sree said:

Jul 4, 2022 19:43:30 GMT -5 laughter said:

Kant relate, sorry, no, I've always been rather enthusiastic about life. Even during times that I suffered, even now, if I experience pain, but it goes differently now.

I accidentally stumbled onto and into meditation and self-inquiry about 13 years back, and had this funny, rather deep experience that lasted for several months off and on to one degree or another and it lingered for years afterward. At times I was walking, talking and acting all without a sense of centered self. With no sense of "I". I sometimes joke that it's one of those "ya' kinda' had to not have been there deals". It was quite blissful.

As it started to fade I got curious and took up meditation a bit more deliberately. I went looking for the fear of death that is secondary, and based on existential dread, and it's gone. I recall reading something in my late 20's where the author wrote something like this:

"One day, although I'd never thought of it before, I considered the possibility of my own death. After that day, the thought would recur to me, and more often as time went on, until, a time came when there wasn't a day where the thought did not occur to me."

Perhaps it was a sort of hypnotic suggestion, but I found myself in a similar arc. And not only that, on occasion I'd contemplate, rather deeply, the notion that I'd cease to exist, and it would fill me with a sort of visceral panic, complete with an adrenaline rush and elevated heart rate. Would always pass quite quickly, and happened only maybe a half dozen times that I recall, but it was rather unforgettable.

My life wasn't threatened during those moments, the panic was completely mind-made at the simple contemplation of the inevitable. This is one perspective on the distinction between the "fear of death", on one hand, and the "survival instinct", on the other. My body/mind, in those moments, mistook the anticipation of death and reacted as you'd expect during an episode of survival instinct in response to a dire event.

Another perspective on the distinction is the fact of existential dread. At the root of existential dread is the survival instinct, a sort of depression and anxiety not in response to any immediate threat, but again, to the inevitable.

I was quite surprised by the disappearance of all of this. It wasn't anything I expected. It's why I've been trying to interest you in the topic of altered states of consciousness.

Thanks for sharing your experience. The fear of death is really something, isn't it? I am open to whatever you have uncovered with regard to altered states of consciousness. We can always talk about it in a spirit of inquiry and exploration into the mystery of being human.

Fear of death is terrorism.

There are many ways to these different states. The most benign and easiest to pursue is meditation, although that's not a great match for everyone. For decades I pursued these states unconsciously through sport and the pursuit of pleasure, especially time outdoors or even just walks in the City. I was a ski bum for several years leading up to and after having stumbled onto self-inquiry and meditation by reading Tolle's The Power of Now. The slopes are a great natural field for cultivating deep mental silence in the motion of the body. Tolle makes a suggestion in that book that one might be amused by the antics of mind if they are observed dispassionately and from a sort of distance. Tolle doesn't use the word "witness" but his suggestions along these lines are very much like Nisargadatta, who does.

But TM, Zen meditation .. the experiences described by people who have followed those paths seem quite familiar to me in some ways. As are those by people who have experimented with psychedelics or even a few who are open and honest about having shed the medications after having been medically restrained because of what the doctors consider a mental break. Tolle talks about what I'll paraphrase as the insanity of the common mind, deep unconsciousness. In many respects I think some people who are labeled as crazy are far more sane than average.

And the link between meditation and prayer is significant as well. Meditation states being similar to prayer but without asking for or apologizing for anything. A church service is sort of like a hypnosis, similar to what happens in a crowded nightclub with the lights flashing and music too loud to hear yourself think, or at a sports arena packed with tens of thousands of others, everyone with the same focus.

Seems to me that many people who commonly experience these states aren't involved in any process of consciously questioning their sense of reality. Combining the two though, well, that can be quite the ride.

[laughter]

Jul 5, 2022 13:12:32 GMT -5 sree said:

Jul 4, 2022 19:43:30 GMT -5 laughter said:

Kant relate, sorry, no, I've always been rather enthusiastic about life. Even during times that I suffered, even now, if I experience pain, but it goes differently now.

I accidentally stumbled onto and into meditation and self-inquiry about 13 years back, and had this funny, rather deep experience that lasted for several months off and on to one degree or another and it lingered for years afterward. At times I was walking, talking and acting all without a sense of centered self. With no sense of "I". I sometimes joke that it's one of those "ya' kinda' had to not have been there deals". It was quite blissful.

As it started to fade I got curious and took up meditation a bit more deliberately. I went looking for the fear of death that is secondary, and based on existential dread, and it's gone. I recall reading something in my late 20's where the author wrote something like this:

"One day, although I'd never thought of it before, I considered the possibility of my own death. After that day, the thought would recur to me, and more often as time went on, until, a time came when there wasn't a day where the thought did not occur to me."

Perhaps it was a sort of hypnotic suggestion, but I found myself in a similar arc. And not only that, on occasion I'd contemplate, rather deeply, the notion that I'd cease to exist, and it would fill me with a sort of visceral panic, complete with an adrenaline rush and elevated heart rate. Would always pass quite quickly, and happened only maybe a half dozen times that I recall, but it was rather unforgettable.

My life wasn't threatened during those moments, the panic was completely mind-made at the simple contemplation of the inevitable. This is one perspective on the distinction between the "fear of death", on one hand, and the "survival instinct", on the other. My body/mind, in those moments, mistook the anticipation of death and reacted as you'd expect during an episode of survival instinct in response to a dire event.

Another perspective on the distinction is the fact of existential dread. At the root of existential dread is the survival instinct, a sort of depression and anxiety not in response to any immediate threat, but again, to the inevitable.

I was quite surprised by the disappearance of all of this. It wasn't anything I expected. It's why I've been trying to interest you in the topic of altered states of consciousness.

What do you mean? You don't have fear of death any more?

Yes, that's what I mean. It doesn't mean the end of the survival instinct, but the survival instinct is an after-the-fact description tied to specific sorts of events. It also doesn't mean that I want to die anytime soon.