Death

[Reefs]

Jun 30, 2022 11:37:32 GMT -5 sree said:

Jun 29, 2022 22:16:47 GMT -5 Reefs said:

You misunderstood. That's not how I used the term 'selfish'. Ultimately, there is no separation. Which means there are no others. That's what oneness means. There is only THIS. And THIS manifests in a myriad of ways, shapes and flavors and perspectives and you have access to all of that because ultimately, YOU are THAT.

I understand you very well. What you are telling me is your personal perspective, and it could well be your actual state of being. Mine is a different personal perspective consistent with that of the practical mundane world in which I live.

You may be THAT but Joe Biden is not THAT, and neither is Vladimir Putin or Xi Jinping.

Spirituality that has no practical relevance is a kind of madness, “a world of abstract thought”, as you put it. Are those politicians crazy? Yes. And so are we.

I'm sorry, but you don't have the slightest idea of what I am talking about. All I've seen from you so far is your preconceived ideas of what spirituality is or isn't and it's all a bunch of hokum, empty ideas you've collected thru-out your life, but none of it has any real substance. You are totally lost in minding. You can't even make such a simple decision like going to your neighbors' funeral without creating another thought tornado. Do you see how your approach to spirituality just isn't working and how bogus your alleged practical orientation is? Get real! Either feel like going and go. Or don't feel like going and don't go. Tend to your own happiness first and then you can share it with others. If you tend to other's happiness first you will only be miserable and have nothing to give other than misery covered up by a fake smile or empty nice sounding words. No one wins in that scenario because it's all fake, disingenuous and hard. But if you care about your own happiness first and then share it with others and spread it around, everyone wins because it's genuine, natural and effortless. Do you want to be a phony? Or do you want to be real?

[Deleted]

Jun 30, 2022 12:41:12 GMT -5 sree said:

Jun 29, 2022 22:16:47 GMT -5 Reefs said:

So of course you can feel the pain of another, you can even sympathize or empathize with them and start feeling the same way (i.e. don a similar perspective). However, the sages don't show sympathy, they rather show compassion. (i.e. they acknowledge the perspective of the other, but they keep their own perspective). They see the other in pain, they acknowledge their pain but they don't feel pain because of that because they don't join them in their pain. They know better. They see it for what it is, someone out of alignment, seemingly cut of from their Source (which is bogus). If they would sympathize or empathize, they would see the other in pain, acknowledge their pain and then join them in their pain. And then they would have nothing to give other than more pain because they too would feel cut of from their Source (which is bogus).

I have been invited to join them in their pain. Yesterday, my neighbor knocked on my front door to ask for my email. Today, I received from him an invitation to Martha’s “Celebration of Life” gathering.

I don’t do funerals. Since giving up the conventional life some ten years ago, I have not attended any celebration of either birth or death.

RSVP, the invite said. This puts me on the spot. Will it break his heart if I ignore his invite? No. It just makes me feel like a sonovabitch to do that. I bet stardustpilgrim (if he were in my position) would reply to confirm his attendance regardless of his realization and transformation from a cultural self to an actual living being. What about you?

How would you respond if your father and mother passed away and you are expected not just to attend but also attend to their funerals like wally did?

Spiritual talk in an internet forum is cheap if it is not backed up by action in real life.

You've either wandered into the wrong forum by mistake, or you have a tremendous opportunity. What shall it be?

[laughter]

Jun 29, 2022 20:51:23 GMT -5 sree said:

Jun 29, 2022 16:06:44 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

Thanks for letting me know.

Are you being polite? It isn’t something pleasant that I am sharing. Grief is hard to bear. It must have driven my neighbor to pass the load onto me, and me to you.

Is this why we have funerals and wakes? More people bearing the pain lightens the load.

I live alone. There will be no grief to spread around when I die. No pollution.

Is it possible to live together without grief?

Yes.

Every moment all around you, everything you see is constantly changing. Each moment is perfect it it's own way, even the ones that are intensely painful, and they are constantly coming and going, each one ever and always dying to the next. It is possible to get in touch with what never changes and is eternally present, and this is what you really are. Once you have done that, the pain of loss might lead to mourning, but not the suffering of grief.

[Deleted]

Part of why I'm interested in "Nirvikalpa Samadhi" is that I think it may be like a "death experience", where you die before you die, so to speak, and find out directly what remains, if anything. There are conflicting reports – some gurus seem to talk about NS like it's just a deep meditation, others talk about like it's a bigger deal. Richard Rose said "You're going to walk through death, so you're going to need some vitality." I need to see for myself, but I haven't yet.

[someNOTHING!]

Jun 30, 2022 9:40:25 GMT -5 sree said:

Jun 29, 2022 16:35:39 GMT -5 someNOTHING! said:

I don't know hwere you live, but here's something to consider. My mother is still dealing with depression. Using my unprofessional insight, I suspect it has been going on since she was at least 8, when her brother was killed by a driver speeding by a school bus back in the day. Anyway, long story short, I did some reading up on ketamine infusion therapy and decided to slowly introduce the idea to her. It is gaining more recognition as a potential breakthrough for depression/anxiety/and even neuropathy. At some point after the 2-3rd infusion, a person can experience a state of disassociation in which a person can experience stepping outside the habituated neural pathways of thought, and experience a shift that, when followed up with some psychological therapy of choice or deeper meditation, can help one rise above debilitating depression. Some of the literature on it expresses certain experiences which are comparable to what is sometimes identified as non-dual.

Just thought I'd share.

Thanks for sharing. What's your mom depressed about? I know this can be a silly question. I am not familiar with depression as a chronic matter affecting people. Apart from that, the stress of living our lives can bring about depression.

Psychotropic medication to treat "unhappiness" doesn't seem right. It takes a toll on the body.

What about you? Is life treating you ok? Why are you in a spiritual forum? I come here mainly to talk to myself. Alan Watts said that this is a sign of madness. What do you think?

I suspect the trauma of losing a brother not 20 feet from her, then experiencing years and years of growing up in a house probably filled with depression made for a conditioned mental life that was infused with the phenomenona of depression. She could escape it off and on and did her best as a momma, but it was always there, lingering within the dynamics of the movement of mind. She's now 79, and I am hoping she can at least get a taste of what it might be outside that dynamic. There's a lot to it, but her roller coaster has mostly been on the down side after dealing with being a caregiver for the last 30+ years for her mother, father, close aunt, and my father.

I'm fine, thanks. I've been an occasioal visitor here since 2008-9ish.

Alan Watts had some good insights. I stumbled on a few of his books when I was living in Japan, and they introduced me to a few things under my hood. Do you think you are going crazy, or involved in an awakening process?

[sree]

Jul 1, 2022 6:30:24 GMT -5 someNOTHING! said:

Jun 30, 2022 9:40:25 GMT -5 sree said:

Thanks for sharing. What's your mom depressed about? I know this can be a silly question. I am not familiar with depression as a chronic matter affecting people. Apart from that, the stress of living our lives can bring about depression.

Psychotropic medication to treat "unhappiness" doesn't seem right. It takes a toll on the body.

What about you? Is life treating you ok? Why are you in a spiritual forum? I come here mainly to talk to myself. Alan Watts said that this is a sign of madness. What do you think?

I suspect the trauma of losing a brother not 20 feet from her, then experiencing years and years of growing up in a house probably filled with depression made for a conditioned mental life that was infused with the phenomenona of depression. She could escape it off and on and did her best as a momma, but it was always there, lingering within the dynamics of the movement of mind. She's now 79, and I am hoping she can at least get a taste of what it might be outside that dynamic. There's a lot to it, but her roller coaster has mostly been on the down side after dealing with being a caregiver for the last 30+ years for her mother, father, close aunt, and my father.

I'm fine, thanks. I've been an occasioal visitor here since 2008-9ish.

Alan Watts had some good insights. I stumbled on a few of his books when I was living in Japan, and they introduced me to a few things under my hood. Do you think you are going crazy, or involved in an awakening process?

Wow, small wonder why your mother is depressed all her life. A caregiver for 30 years?! stardustpilgrim went through that for 3 years looking after his sick mom and dad and he said that was the toughest time of his life (or something like that).

Look, I don't like coming on as a know-all about this and that but I do have some convictions about why we suffer in this awful existence as human beings. I am just sharing the views that guide me through life in the avoidance of unnecessary pain.

Your mother's life brings to mind something you might be able to connect with having lived in Japan. I lived there too, 6 months at a time each year for a number of years. The Japanese culture is pretty strict with regard to filial piety. The youngest daughter's role in life is to take care of her parents till they die. No wonder zen Buddhism is so important to them. It's their way of facing suffering. We, westerners, gravitate to zen to escape suffering. It's cowardice. Imagine if the Japanese had won the war. We wouldn't be such a namby-pamby mess of a nation pandering to perceived victims of one kind or another. If you are fat, it's not your bad life habits but your biology. If you go around hurting other people and riot in the streets, it's not your fault, it's your unfortunate place in our nation's history.

I am sorry about your situation with regard to your mom. I wouldn't nudge her to take medications. Our healthcare system is a heartless scam. Our health is the last thing driving it. It's money that doctors/hospitals charge insurance companies, and these companies get from the taxpayers through corrupt politicians and their crooked legislation. I think zen would be a less harmful solution to your mother's depression. I don't believe in zen as a way to self-realization but it can be useful for getting out of the dumps.

No, I am not going crazy. I have criteria for determining that. Feel free to criticize my judgment. This is why we are here - to help each other out through examining craziness and call it by its name. As Reefs pointed out, no ad hominems, just attack the crazy thinking you find in my solutions to suffering.

My criteria for sanity are 1. Hygiene: clean body and home, 2. Nutrition, 3. Body health and fitness, 4. Financial viability (no debts and net cash), 5. Social viability (no involvement in public systems and causes).   

Lastly, the awakening process is of no interest to me. It's spiritualism, an indulgence of culture. Spirituality is about liberation of humanity from suffering. If all of us cannot be free at the same time, it is not spirituality.      

[sree]

Jun 30, 2022 17:36:58 GMT -5 @robertc said:

Part of why I'm interested in "Nirvikalpa Samadhi" is that I think it may be like a "death experience", where you die before you die, so to speak, and find out directly what remains, if anything. There are conflicting reports – some gurus seem to talk about NS like it's just a deep meditation, others talk about like it's a bigger deal. Richard Rose said "You're going to walk through death, so you're going to need some vitality." I need to see for myself, but I haven't yet.

Your body is going to die. It's like me telling you that the airplane you are flying in is going to fail and disintegrate. All the world religions are handed down to us from people who had a different mindset shaped by an existential reality that is nothing like yours.

Your dog's existential reality is also nothing like yours. It does not know that it is living on planet Earth. Neither did the Buddha. Would you listen to your dog about Samadhi if it could talk? 

Needing to see for yourself is not unwise but don't take too long.The plane is going down.

[someNOTHING!]

Jul 1, 2022 9:36:22 GMT -5 sree said:

Jul 1, 2022 6:30:24 GMT -5 someNOTHING! said:

I suspect the trauma of losing a brother not 20 feet from her, then experiencing years and years of growing up in a house probably filled with depression made for a conditioned mental life that was infused with the phenomenona of depression. She could escape it off and on and did her best as a momma, but it was always there, lingering within the dynamics of the movement of mind. She's now 79, and I am hoping she can at least get a taste of what it might be outside that dynamic. There's a lot to it, but her roller coaster has mostly been on the down side after dealing with being a caregiver for the last 30+ years for her mother, father, close aunt, and my father.

I'm fine, thanks. I've been an occasioal visitor here since 2008-9ish.

Alan Watts had some good insights. I stumbled on a few of his books when I was living in Japan, and they introduced me to a few things under my hood. Do you think you are going crazy, or involved in an awakening process?

Wow, small wonder why your mother is depressed all her life. A caregiver for 30 years?! stardustpilgrim went through that for 3 years looking after his sick mom and dad and he said that was the toughest time of his life (or something like that).

Look, I don't like coming on as a know-all about this and that but I do have some convictions about why we suffer in this awful existence as human beings. I am just sharing the views that guide me through life in the avoidance of unnecessary pain.

Your mother's life brings to mind something you might be able to connect with having lived in Japan. I lived there too, 6 months at a time each year for a number of years. The Japanese culture is pretty strict with regard to filial piety. The youngest daughter's role in life is to take care of her parents till they die. No wonder zen Buddhism is so important to them. It's their way of facing suffering. We, westerners, gravitate to zen to escape suffering. It's cowardice. Imagine if the Japanese had won the war. We wouldn't be such a namby-pamby mess of a nation pandering to perceived victims of one kind or another. If you are fat, it's not your bad life habits but your biology. If you go around hurting other people and riot in the streets, it's not your fault, it's your unfortunate place in our nation's history.

I am sorry about your situation with regard to your mom. I wouldn't nudge her to take medications. Our healthcare system is a heartless scam. Our health is the last thing driving it. It's money that doctors/hospitals charge insurance companies, and these companies get from the taxpayers through corrupt politicians and their crooked legislation. I think zen would be a less harmful solution to your mother's depression. I don't believe in zen as a way to self-realization but it can be useful for getting out of the dumps.

No, I am not going crazy. I have criteria for determining that. Feel free to criticize my judgment. This is why we are here - to help each other out through examining craziness and call it by its name. As Reefs pointed out, no ad hominems, just attack the crazy thinking you find in my solutions to suffering.

My criteria for sanity are 1. Hygiene: clean body and home, 2. Nutrition, 3. Body health and fitness, 4. Financial viability (no debts and net cash), 5. Social viability (no involvement in public systems and causes).   

Lastly, the awakening process is of no interest to me. It's spiritualism, an indulgence of culture. Spirituality is about liberation of humanity from suffering. If all of us cannot be free at the same time, it is not spirituality.      

No worries about my "situation with my mom". It is what it is. As for the ketamine infusions, the choice was not mine; I merely presented it as a possibility in a wholesome way. She does not have the mindscape for the search as we speak of it here, much less Zen. Besides, she's more of the devotional type. I do understand your take on the medical world at large, but it's not the priority at this point.

You do seem to express things in a way that seems you feel you are indeed knowledgeable of their value. Would you say that Zen is not a "way", or that it points to "no way" to SR? And, as such, are you saying there is no particular process that will "cause" SR, or that you find the whole endeavor pointless AND there is no end in suffering? If "all of us" are actually already free, but certain peeps seem to express they have just not realized that Freedom, does that count as your "Spirituality"?

[sree]

Jun 30, 2022 15:14:58 GMT -5 laughter said:

Jun 29, 2022 20:51:23 GMT -5 sree said:

Are you being polite? It isn’t something pleasant that I am sharing. Grief is hard to bear. It must have driven my neighbor to pass the load onto me, and me to you.

Is this why we have funerals and wakes? More people bearing the pain lightens the load.

I live alone. There will be no grief to spread around when I die. No pollution.

Is it possible to live together without grief?

Yes.

Every moment all around you, everything you see is constantly changing. Each moment is perfect it it's own way, even the ones that are intensely painful, and they are constantly coming and going, each one ever and always dying to the next. It is possible to get in touch with what never changes and is eternally present, and this is what you really are. Once you have done that, the pain of loss might lead to mourning, but not the suffering of grief.

Being polite is an excuse for caving into social conditioning. In this case, it is mindless conformity to a norm. No criticism here, just an observation.

One time, I was on my way walking through the small seaside town of Port Dickson on the Malacca Straits. I came across an elderly Tamil sitting on the grassy ground by the roadside. On seeing him, I hesitated (my mistake). Our eyes met and he stuck out his hand to beg. I could have given something, coins in my pocket or even a ringgit (local dollar) and moved on. It's the same as being polite, being the good guy, and conforming. I didn't. The psychological compulsion to get with the program caught my attention.

I was reading Krishnamurti at the time, and watching thought was central to his teaching. It was egging me to give to the poor, the Tamil, the evil in my mind that must be dealt with. The old man implored and I just stood there and watched. After a minute of non-action, he got uncomfortable. Me also, due to the guilt of heartlessness tearing me up inside. I was getting tired standing there and so was his out-stretched hand. I saw a tree stump next to me and sat down to keep up with my vigil. The old man, puzzled by the situation, got uncomfortable. He lowered his hand, sat there before me for a few moments, then got up and walked unsteadily away. I felt horrible. I was being cruel. Just when I was coming to the conclusion that watching thought was silly, something on the ground where the Tamil was sitting, caught my eye. It was an empty bottle of cheap toddy, a local poor man's alcohol. He was sitting on it so I couldn't see it.

Ok, I survived the Maya of the rich man poor man gauntlet of loving-kindness in which mankind is caught. Did that confer upon me the liberation from suffering? No. Now, I have to deal with and get through another level of hell: compassion of the sage (as Reefs called it) in joining my neighbor in his time of grief.

What do you think, laughter? Shall I become the sage and comply with my neighbor's call to grief over his wife's passing or be a cold-hearted sonovabitch and ignore his RSVP invite to attend Martha's "Celebration of Life" gathering?             

As with discovering the old Tamil's game, I have a feeling that there is neither grief nor mourning involved here. Krishnamurti called it "seeing truth in the false". Freedom from being a sucker is what it is.

[sree]

Jun 30, 2022 14:18:00 GMT -5 @cobb said:

Jun 30, 2022 12:41:12 GMT -5 sree said:

I have been invited to join them in their pain. Yesterday, my neighbor knocked on my front door to ask for my email. Today, I received from him an invitation to Martha’s “Celebration of Life” gathering.

I don’t do funerals. Since giving up the conventional life some ten years ago, I have not attended any celebration of either birth or death.

RSVP, the invite said. This puts me on the spot. Will it break his heart if I ignore his invite? No. It just makes me feel like a sonovabitch to do that. I bet stardustpilgrim (if he were in my position) would reply to confirm his attendance regardless of his realization and transformation from a cultural self to an actual living being. What about you?

How would you respond if your father and mother passed away and you are expected not just to attend but also attend to their funerals like wally did?

Spiritual talk in an internet forum is cheap if it is not backed up by action in real life.

You've either wandered into the wrong forum by mistake, or you have a tremendous opportunity. What shall it be?

Tremendous opportunity is what I have. I am with Reefs about alignment. I align my desire with my belief to live in a realm of infinite possibilities.

Why don't you tell me what you have on your mind? We don't have to agree. Just talk about it.

[sree]

Jun 30, 2022 13:10:55 GMT -5 @abscissa said:

Jun 30, 2022 12:41:12 GMT -5 sree said:

I have been invited to join them in their pain. Yesterday, my neighbor knocked on my front door to ask for my email. Today, I received from him an invitation to Martha’s “Celebration of Life” gathering.

I don’t do funerals. Since giving up the conventional life some ten years ago, I have not attended any celebration of either birth or death.

RSVP, the invite said. This puts me on the spot. Will it break his heart if I ignore his invite? No. It just makes me feel like a sonovabitch to do that. I bet stardustpilgrim (if he were in my position) would reply to confirm his attendance regardless of his realization and transformation from a cultural self to an actual living being. What about you?

How would you respond if your father and mother passed away and you are expected not just to attend but also attend to their funerals like wally did?

Spiritual talk in an internet forum is cheap if it is not backed up by action in real life.

Martha's husband is only inviting you because he cares about you and he thought that you cared about him and his wife. 

I think you are wrong about Martha's husband but your point of view is pretty normal.

I want to live a spiritual life, not a normal one.

[Deleted]

Jul 1, 2022 13:29:54 GMT -5 sree said:

Jun 30, 2022 13:10:55 GMT -5 @abscissa said:

Martha's husband is only inviting you because he cares about you and he thought that you cared about him and his wife. 

I think you are wrong about Martha's husband but your point of view is pretty normal.

I want to live a spiritual life, not a normal one.

Who told you that they were different?

[Deleted]

Jul 1, 2022 13:19:31 GMT -5 sree said:

Jun 30, 2022 14:18:00 GMT -5 @cobb said:

You've either wandered into the wrong forum by mistake, or you have a tremendous opportunity. What shall it be?

Tremendous opportunity is what I have. I am with Reefs about alignment. I align my desire with my belief to live in a realm of infinite possibilities.

Why don't you tell me what you have on your mind? We don't have to agree. Just talk about it.

Sorry, I shouldn't have said that.

Nothing is on my mind really, and in my way of thinking 'agree/disagree' shouldn't matter.


But I'm sure there are plenty of things we could talk about, can you describe what a "you" is? Or a "me"? How are they different?

[Deleted]

Jul 1, 2022 10:00:19 GMT -5 sree said:

Jun 30, 2022 17:36:58 GMT -5 @robertc said:

Part of why I'm interested in "Nirvikalpa Samadhi" is that I think it may be like a "death experience", where you die before you die, so to speak, and find out directly what remains, if anything. There are conflicting reports – some gurus seem to talk about NS like it's just a deep meditation, others talk about like it's a bigger deal. Richard Rose said "You're going to walk through death, so you're going to need some vitality." I need to see for myself, but I haven't yet.

Your body is going to die. It's like me telling you that the airplane you are flying in is going to fail and disintegrate. All the world religions are handed down to us from people who had a different mindset shaped by an existential reality that is nothing like yours.

Your dog's existential reality is also nothing like yours. It does not know that it is living on planet Earth. Neither did the Buddha. Would you listen to your dog about Samadhi if it could talk? 

Needing to see for yourself is not unwise but don't take too long.The plane is going down.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you saying that the people who gave us the teachings about the pure state of awareness/consciousness called "nirvikalpa samadhi" are so different from me, that trying to take their ideas seriously is like trying to talk to a dog? But modern humans also talk about experiencing this state. Also, what makes you think that 2000 years ago people were in a "mindset" that is "nothing like [mine]". I doubt that's the case. We've got a lot of shiny technology but the basic human body-mind is about the same.

[laughter]

Jul 1, 2022 12:32:11 GMT -5 sree said:

Jun 30, 2022 15:14:58 GMT -5 laughter said:

Yes.

Every moment all around you, everything you see is constantly changing. Each moment is perfect it it's own way, even the ones that are intensely painful, and they are constantly coming and going, each one ever and always dying to the next. It is possible to get in touch with what never changes and is eternally present, and this is what you really are. Once you have done that, the pain of loss might lead to mourning, but not the suffering of grief.

Being polite is an excuse for caving into social conditioning. In this case, it is mindless conformity to a norm. No criticism here, just an observation.

One time, I was on my way walking through the small seaside town of Port Dickson on the Malacca Straits. I came across an elderly Tamil sitting on the grassy ground by the roadside. On seeing him, I hesitated (my mistake). Our eyes met and he stuck out his hand to beg. I could have given something, coins in my pocket or even a ringgit (local dollar) and moved on. It's the same as being polite, being the good guy, and conforming. I didn't. The psychological compulsion to get with the program caught my attention.

I was reading Krishnamurti at the time, and watching thought was central to his teaching. It was egging me to give to the poor, the Tamil, the evil in my mind that must be dealt with. The old man implored and I just stood there and watched. After a minute of non-action, he got uncomfortable. Me also, due to the guilt of heartlessness tearing me up inside. I was getting tired standing there and so was his out-stretched hand. I saw a tree stump next to me and sat down to keep up with my vigil. The old man, puzzled by the situation, got uncomfortable. He lowered his hand, sat there before me for a few moments, then got up and walked unsteadily away. I felt horrible. I was being cruel. Just when I was coming to the conclusion that watching thought was silly, something on the ground where the Tamil was sitting, caught my eye. It was an empty bottle of cheap toddy, a local poor man's alcohol. He was sitting on it so I couldn't see it.

Ok, I survived the Maya of the rich man poor man gauntlet of loving-kindness in which mankind is caught. Did that confer upon me the liberation from suffering? No. Now, I have to deal with and get through another level of hell: compassion of the sage (as Reefs called it) in joining my neighbor in his time of grief.

What do you think, laughter? Shall I become the sage and comply with my neighbor's call to grief over his wife's passing or be a cold-hearted sonovabitch and ignore his RSVP invite to attend Martha's "Celebration of Life" gathering?             

As with discovering the old Tamil's game, I have a feeling that there is neither grief nor mourning involved here. Krishnamurti called it "seeing truth in the false". Freedom from being a sucker is what it is.

Thanks for recounting that. My "yes" there was to your last question: "Is it possible to live together without grief?", not the first one about polity.

The end of such suffering in what I described there is also the end of agonizing about decisions or 2nd-guessing or regretting them .. which doesn't mean that you can't learn from your mistakes, similarly to how the end of the fear of death is not the end of the survival instinct.

I used to kill the mice in my house, now I catch them, drive them to a forest and let them go. Is that any less cruel? Cruelty is a mind-made construct, and that's not to say that it's not sometimes an apt one, but that alternative perspective I suggested, and those potential altered states of consciousness, both put cruelty into perspective and make it far less likely that you'll ever engage in it yourself, certainly not deliberately or carelessly, although, in the infinite game, nothing is ever completely out of the question.