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Death
Aug 5, 2022 10:57:17 GMT -5
Post by sree on Aug 5, 2022 10:57:17 GMT -5
You probably know well enough not to perceive Tao the way a Taiwanese Taoist priest does. I once watched that guy prancing around with a kung fu sword before an altar. He then went into a trance and scribbled Chinese characters on a slip of rice paper, set it afire, and dunk it into a glass of water for a devotee to drink. It was for curing a mental ailment. And that behavior would not deter you from reading Chaungtze or Laotze. Coarse minds exist in every culture. Practitioners of the Christian faith are no better exponents of Jesus' teaching than Taoists are at living by the principles alluded to in the Tao Te Ching. Your formative years living among Christians have made you unreceptive to Jesus' teaching. I am that way also with regard to Hinduism. Any mention of an Indian guru shuts out my receptors.
India was a shocking experience from the moment I stepped off the plane and walked into the airport at Chennai. It got worse when I got into a taxi after a tug of war among the cab drivers. Halfway into the city, my cabbie pulled into a gas station. He asked for some rupees to buy the gas. I gave him the money and he pulled out the gas cap which was a rolled up stub of newspaper and started filling up his cab. Fcking hell. I realized I was riding in a bomb on wheels. After filling up, he shoved his "gas cap" back in and motioned to me to get in the cab to resume our journey to my hotel. India stinks. This is not a figure of speech. After 2000 years or more of Twat Tam Asi, the subcontinent still reeks of human excrement and human suffering. And yet, you guys swear by the teaching of Ramana, and love stamping on Gopal. The story of Jesus is silly. It is a distraction, irrelevant and should be discarded. The Sermon on the Mount points to the cause of human suffering. It's prescriptive tone offends the American who does not like to be told. Be perfect. This is the central teaching of Confucius: the perfect man. Laotze points to the same thing too, but in the other way round by admonishing the fool.
I kind of agree about the Confucius and Laotze takes. Confucianism was more about 'creating a harmony between heaven and earth' in society, while Laotse was more about negating a lot of the influences that cloud one's view of what heaven/perfection might be. There was a reason why the story has him writing the Tao Te Ching as he was leaving. It's interesting what peeps do with the teachings to mold them to their own world views and agendas. I also see how they resonated together to blossom in the intermingling with Buddhist thought. Notice how their stories kind of point in the directions of piercing through social norms (or leaving society altogether), but, once spotting and then riding the ox, returns to society. It can be pretty cool juxtaposing how the Far Eastern cultures, the South Asian cultures, etc approach, value, and express the realization of what is ultimate and undivided. There are nuggets in them to be harvested, but can be quite hard to acknowledge in the state of confusion and ignorance. As such, SR/TR 'appear' quite radical when one is searching for what it could be.
You seem to focus a lot on appearances and to express a lot of assumptions at times. That's OK, as it is part of the searching and inquiry. I get more curious in seeing what happens when you occasionally give up on that endeavor and your attention is on the substrates of the thinking, assumptions, and attachments. Undermining the validity of one's beliefs is what dissolves one's delusion. Perfection is not about such 'outward' appearances or conditioned perceptions, but THAT in/from which they appear. I do like this post of yours. It invites serious conversation.
What do you mean by your observation in bold above?
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Post by zazeniac on Aug 5, 2022 11:17:25 GMT -5
Hence forth these types of arguments are banned. Use of them will result in severe sanctions, wedgies, noogies and chewing gum in the hair.
1. You can't possibly see or understand because you don't have the benefit of my realization or words to that effect. Nix, nein, nyet. It's like saying you can't possibly understand because I have a brain and you don't or you can't possibly understand because I have a PHD in Quantatative Jibberjabber and you don't. Spare us your superiority and get down and dirty with the rest of us. Wrestle in the mud with the lowly.
2. Your viewpoint comes from your conditioning (implying that mine doesn't) which is basically bs.
3. Mine is the minority view so therefore innovative and special. Yeah right, the minority believes the earth is flat, albino bones enhance your life, women's genitalia is the cause of evil. You could be in the minority not because you're special, but because you're especially dumb.
If you persist in this manner of arguing you'll be added to my bad bad bad boy/girl list.
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Death
Aug 5, 2022 11:17:59 GMT -5
Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 5, 2022 11:17:59 GMT -5
The brain is basically a prediction machine, so say today's neuroscientists. But it was meant for a split second, or seconds at the most, is that movement in the bushes the wind or a beast that will eat me? Abstraction has dragged that capacity into minutes, hours, days, weeks, months, years. Adrenaline and cortisol are meant to last for minutes, not HDWMY. Perception conditioned by the ontology of science creates a world, a virtual reality of time, space and matter. At the center of this metaverse, is you, the observer, the self. You are that metaverse, and that metaverse is you.
Consciousness, the state of awareness that arises from conditioned perception becomes the prison. It's not a prison if you are content to live as a human being with family and friends in a world such as ours. Be like farmer. he is a white guy like you. He comes here to banter with you. He lives in the South with his grand kids. Does he care about violent crime and nuclear weapons in the hands of God knows who? No, his grand kids will find their own way to live as happy as he is doing now.
Be like farmer. It's doable and a lot more sane. Being the selfless self to walk on the pathless path is just as weird as being an evangelical or fundamentalist Christian waiting for Jesus to come again. They say it's the end times and all the signs are here: America divided, pestilence (Covid and more variants, monkey pox), geopolitical instability (NATO bugging Russia, Nancy needling China, Israel at the center as the prophets predicted). sdp is an outsider, even here. No selfless self, no pathless path. |
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Death
Aug 5, 2022 12:06:09 GMT -5
Post by laughter on Aug 5, 2022 12:06:09 GMT -5
Hence forth these types of arguments are banned. Use of them will result in severe sanctions, wedgies, noogies and chewing gum in the hair. 1. You can't possibly see or understand because you don't have the benefit of my realization or words to that effect. Nix, nein, nyet. It's like saying you can't possibly understand because I have a brain and you don't or you can't possibly understand because I have a PHD in Quantatative Jibberjabber and you don't. Spare us your superiority and get down and dirty with the rest of us. Wrestle in the mud with the lowly. 2. Your viewpoint comes from your conditioning (implying that mine doesn't) which is basically bs. 3. Mine is the minority view so therefore innovative and special. Yeah right, the minority believes the earth is flat, albino bones enhance your life, women's genitalia is the cause of evil. You could be in the minority not because you're special, but because you're especially dumb. If you persist in this manner of arguing you'll be added to my bad bad bad boy/girl list. Yeah, telling someone about a color they've never seen is bound to stoke the ego, but sometimes it comes down to a choice between that and silence. Each are lies of a slightly different flavor. To the extent that it's from the ego of the one saying that, the taste is particularly sour. As far as conditioning is concerned, this comes down to a question of accuracy, and someone who doesn't share in the conditioning at question is more likely to be able to gain a genuinely objective perspective on it. Of course, offering that sort of insight to someone who isn't interested in it is what it is, but then again, sometimes people just ask for it without asking, know what I mean?  |
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Death
Aug 5, 2022 12:16:22 GMT -5
Post by sree on Aug 5, 2022 12:16:22 GMT -5
You probably know well enough not to perceive Tao the way a Taiwanese Taoist priest does. I once watched that guy prancing around with a kung fu sword before an altar. He then went into a trance and scribbled Chinese characters on a slip of rice paper, set it afire, and dunk it into a glass of water for a devotee to drink. It was for curing a mental ailment. And that behavior would not deter you from reading Chaungtze or Laotze. Coarse minds exist in every culture. Practitioners of the Christian faith are no better exponents of Jesus' teaching than Taoists are at living by the principles alluded to in the Tao Te Ching. Your formative years living among Christians have made you unreceptive to Jesus' teaching. I am that way also with regard to Hinduism. Any mention of an Indian guru shuts out my receptors.
India was a shocking experience from the moment I stepped off the plane and walked into the airport at Chennai. It got worse when I got into a taxi after a tug of war among the cab drivers. Halfway into the city, my cabbie pulled into a gas station. He asked for some rupees to buy the gas. I gave him the money and he pulled out the gas cap which was a rolled up stub of newspaper and started filling up his cab. Fcking hell. I realized I was riding in a bomb on wheels. After filling up, he shoved his "gas cap" back in and motioned to me to get in the cab to resume our journey to my hotel. India stinks. This is not a figure of speech. After 2000 years or more of Twat Tam Asi, the subcontinent still reeks of human excrement and human suffering. And yet, you guys swear by the teaching of Ramana, and love stamping on Gopal. The story of Jesus is silly. It is a distraction, irrelevant and should be discarded. The Sermon on the Mount points to the cause of human suffering. It's prescriptive tone offends the American who does not like to be told. Be perfect. This is the central teaching of Confucius: the perfect man. Laotze points to the same thing too, but in the other way round by admonishing the fool.
Your parents were Hindu? Why would you tell us white men to listen to a silly story just 'cause our parents told it to us?  If I were a native of India, I would rather be a Sikh. To be fair, India is not all bad. I just wonder why they couldn't do better than China at running their country. As a people, they are as smart as the Chinese who are a lot smarter than us.
As I said, the stuff that draws us to Chinese philosophy is the same wisdom packed in the words attributed to Jesus. Turning the other cheek when struck, is a call to break the cycle of violence driven by thought.
The perception of the self, not just your own but that of the enemy, is created by thought. Rage is incited by the guy who crashes into you. If the other guy were an empty suit of armor that fell on you, would you take out a gun and shoot it? We are always in conflict with others even though there are neither others nor us.
In the Chuangtze, is a story about a man in a boat. Another craft was heading in his direction. He called out to alert the other guy to avoid colliding into him. No response. Apparently, his call was ignored and the approaching boat came closer. He got anxious and yelled out again. No response. When the other boat was about to crash into him, he let out a string of expletives and cursed the other boatman only to realize that there was no one there. He vent his rage on an empty boat.
Not too longer ago, there was a news report of a guy who shot and killed his neighbor and his neighbor's wife. The couple from across the alley had blown snow onto his property and he gave them a piece of his mind. The bad relationship caused by one incursion or another had been building up over time. When the guy's admonition was ignored and to rub salt into his wound, the couple threw abuses at him. He got mad, went into his house, got his gun and came back out. When the neighbor's wife saw that he had armed himself, she dared him to shoot. He did. Killed both the woman and the neighbor. Then, he went back into his own house and shot himself. Sad. If only people realize that there are only human bodies empty of selves: just boats with no boatmen.
I am free of the self. I am just the boat (i.e. body). No boatman. And ouroboros called me a liar to my face. He hung me in front of the world even before conducting an investigation to establish a prosecutable case to establish that the sin of lying has been committed. Our judicial system is operating in that way also. Presumption of guilt rather than innocence.
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Death
Aug 5, 2022 12:27:19 GMT -5
Post by zazeniac on Aug 5, 2022 12:27:19 GMT -5
Hence forth these types of arguments are banned. Use of them will result in severe sanctions, wedgies, noogies and chewing gum in the hair. 1. You can't possibly see or understand because you don't have the benefit of my realization or words to that effect. Nix, nein, nyet. It's like saying you can't possibly understand because I have a brain and you don't or you can't possibly understand because I have a PHD in Quantatative Jibberjabber and you don't. Spare us your superiority and get down and dirty with the rest of us. Wrestle in the mud with the lowly. 2. Your viewpoint comes from your conditioning (implying that mine doesn't) which is basically bs. 3. Mine is the minority view so therefore innovative and special. Yeah right, the minority believes the earth is flat, albino bones enhance your life, women's genitalia is the cause of evil. You could be in the minority not because you're special, but because you're especially dumb. If you persist in this manner of arguing you'll be added to my bad bad bad boy/girl list. Yeah, telling someone about a color they've never seen is bound to stoke the ego, but sometimes it comes down to a choice between that and silence. Each are lies of a slightly different flavor. To the extent that it's from the ego of the one saying that, the taste is particularly sour. As far as conditioning is concerned, this comes down to a question of accuracy, and someone who doesn't share in the conditioning at question is more likely to be able to gain a genuinely objective perspective on it. Of course, offering that sort of insight to someone who isn't interested in it is what it is, but then again, sometimes people just ask for it without asking, know what I mean? It gets old. And that's never the context here. It's not teacher/student. It's dueling gurus. It's usually an I'm realized and you're not tussle. As to conditioning, you're only truly privy to your own. |
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Death
Aug 5, 2022 12:41:06 GMT -5
Post by sree on Aug 5, 2022 12:41:06 GMT -5
Why don't we relate with each other the way a mother relates with her offspring? The presence of the self does not prevent the mother from caring for the child. Affection. Not altruism.
Krishnamurti said that love is when the self is not. In the case of the mother, love is even when the self is there.
We might have a breakthrough here. This is worth exploring. Because that would infantilse a developing species. A good mother relating to her adult children, is a promising direction of growth. Abscissa, I am not suggesting that we breastfeed each another and change each other's diapers.
A mother's relationship with the child is a natural bond. An instance of two separate bodies, one protecting the interest and safety of the other. This is a phenomenon to behold. If it can happen in that instance, then such a connection is possible between and among all bodies. No distinction. Like ants and bees. Together in the interest of all.
What's the wrong with you, absicissa?
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Death
Aug 5, 2022 12:48:37 GMT -5
Post by laughter on Aug 5, 2022 12:48:37 GMT -5
Your parents were Hindu? Why would you tell us white men to listen to a silly story just 'cause our parents told it to us? If I were a native of India, I would rather be a Sikh. To be fair, India is not all bad. I just wonder why they couldn't do better than China at running their country. As a people, they are as smart as the Chinese who are a lot smarter than us. As I said, the stuff that draws us to Chinese philosophy is the same wisdom packed in the words attributed to Jesus. Turning the other cheek when struck, is a call to break the cycle of violence driven by thought. The perception of the self, not just your own but that of the enemy, is created by thought. Rage is incited by the guy who crashes into you. If the other guy were an empty suit of armor that fell on you, would you take out a gun and shoot it? We are always in conflict with others even though there are neither others nor us.
In the Chuangtze, is a story about a man in a boat. Another craft was heading in his direction. He called out to alert the other guy to avoid colliding into him. No response. Apparently, his call was ignored and the approaching boat came closer. He got anxious and yelled out again. No response. When the other boat was about to crash into him, he let out a string of expletives and cursed the other boatman only to realize that there was no one there. He vent his rage on an empty boat. Not too longer ago, there was a news report of a guy who shot and killed his neighbor and his neighbor's wife. The couple from across the alley had blown snow onto his property and he gave them a piece of his mind. The bad relationship caused by one incursion or another had been building up over time. When the guy's admonition was ignored and to rub salt into his wound, the couple threw abuses at him. He got mad, went into his house, got his gun and came back out. When the neighbor's wife saw that he had armed himself, she dared him to shoot. He did. Killed both the woman and the neighbor. Then, he went back into his own house and shot himself. Sad. If only people realize that there are only human bodies empty of selves: just boats with no boatmen.
I am free of the self. I am just the boat (i.e. body). No boatman. And ouroboros called me a liar to my face. He hung me in front of the world even before conducting an investigation to establish a prosecutable case to establish that the sin of lying has been committed. Our judicial system is operating in that way also. Presumption of guilt rather than innocence.
 Three things. So are you saying that your parents where Sikh, and not Hindu? Were you taught and/or otherwise indoctrinated into Sikhism? As to our apparent mutual interest on the topic of Christianity and other spiritual traditions: The Romans either erased or co-opted as much of the old pre-Christian religion and other culture of north western Europe that they could. That continued long after the Empire collapsed through the influence of the Church. As an interesting digression, that explains why what I wrote about here is relative to Ireland, where the evidence suggests they never went in any significant military force, and, ironically, it was Irish monks who restored many of the classics that formed the basis of the Renaissance. The peculiarities of Patrick's church would form the basis for yet another potentially interesting digression. Now, one reason for that digression was for context in response to your allegation of defamation by ouroboros.  Much of that pre-Christian culture survived despite the best efforts of the Romans and their successors. Billy Shakes expressed quite a bit of it in his work. Much more survives in the form of old folksy aphorisms. Some cultural artifacts cast the shadows of existential truth, you know, like on the wall of Plato's cave? The better these follow the outlines of that truth, the harder they are to erase completely. so, to the extent that you're not joking in your complaint of injury as to having allegedly been called a liar: One of these old cultural artifacts is essentially a nursery "rhyme" for children: "sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me". |
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Death
Aug 5, 2022 12:53:13 GMT -5
Post by laughter on Aug 5, 2022 12:53:13 GMT -5
Yeah, telling someone about a color they've never seen is bound to stoke the ego, but sometimes it comes down to a choice between that and silence. Each are lies of a slightly different flavor. To the extent that it's from the ego of the one saying that, the taste is particularly sour. As far as conditioning is concerned, this comes down to a question of accuracy, and someone who doesn't share in the conditioning at question is more likely to be able to gain a genuinely objective perspective on it. Of course, offering that sort of insight to someone who isn't interested in it is what it is, but then again, sometimes people just ask for it without asking, know what I mean? It gets old. And that's never the context here. It's not teacher/student. It's dueling gurus. It's usually an I'm realized and you're not tussle. As to conditioning, you're only truly privy to your own. Yes, that's true, but sometimes people are playing a sort of game. Of learning by pretending to teach. It's actually a thing you know. Learning by pretending to teach what you want to learn. Some ego's are so big and blinding that they do this unconsciously. I don't disagree that there is only ever one subjective perspective on conditioning, but that's beside the point I offered. Do you see how your notion is related to the solipsism debate? It's true that you never think another's thoughts, you never feel exactly what they feel. Human perspective is profoundly unique, and there are many different ways to discern that. But sometimes, people make their thoughts and feelings very well known. Sometimes they make them more well known to everyone else than they do even to themselves. |
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Death
Aug 5, 2022 13:27:47 GMT -5
Post by sree on Aug 5, 2022 13:27:47 GMT -5
Why don't we relate with each other the way a mother relates with her offspring? The presence of the self does not prevent the mother from caring for the child. Affection. Not altruism.
Krishnamurti said that love is when the self is not. In the case of the mother, love is even when the self is there.
We might have a breakthrough here. This is worth exploring.
I guess the short answer would be not-knowing, or ongoing ignorance (avijja). The fact is it's a pretty nuanced and wide-ranging circumstance that leads to the situation you describe. Simply put, there are at least vestiges of various skewed views that result in an imbalance between the way we consider or relate to those within our immediate sphere, versus those outside of it. So, conversely the situation could be said to be as a result of the absence of higher wisdom to the contrary, of clarity (vijja). To elaborate. The tendency seems to be, otoh to over-emphasise and place too much import on those in our immediate sphere, friends and family, etc. So ultimately too much emphasis on that which is ultimately transient in nature and in its extreme, it can lead to grief and suchlike at their perceived loss. And otoh the tendency is to do the reverse to those outside of our sphere, which is where this whole 'out of sight out of mind' disposition comes in I spose. Resulting in a certain apathy towards the plight of others, an absence of compassion. In some respects it can be thought of as a result of tribalism. So we just evolved that way. In the case of the mother there is bio-chemistry involved too.
Anyway, through rigorous self-honesty and being conscious we can recognise such patterns in ourselves and know them as a form of kammic latency. That we do place more emphasis on the wellbeing of family and friends than strangers I mean. Fact is even science tells us we're one big family. Although I expect my bacon number is quite high. However, the so called great spiritual teachers tell of a state where the disparity of which we speak is overcome. Something altogether more holistic I guess, and more balanced. Personal relationships are psychological bonds that tie the self to others. Such connections are complex and exclusive. They are links between unreal entities.
A world of the human body is not a society of the self. Body needs are common and essential. Relating is simple.
Why can't you think directly from emptiness? Why do you speak through intermediaries: spiritual teachers and whatnot?
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Post by ouroboros on Aug 5, 2022 13:29:06 GMT -5
... I am free of the self. I am just the boat (i.e. body). No boatman. And ouroboros called me a liar to my face. He hung me in front of the world even before conducting an investigation to establish a prosecutable case to establish that the sin of lying has been committed. Our judicial system is operating in that way also. Presumption of guilt rather than innocence.
Pretty sure the word I used was deluded. But hey, you might find others here are more receptive to your proclamations of emptiness, or willing to take what you say at face value. Good luck with that. |
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Death
Aug 5, 2022 13:30:48 GMT -5
Post by ouroboros on Aug 5, 2022 13:30:48 GMT -5
Yeah, telling someone about a color they've never seen is bound to stoke the ego, but sometimes it comes down to a choice between that and silence. Each are lies of a slightly different flavor. To the extent that it's from the ego of the one saying that, the taste is particularly sour. As far as conditioning is concerned, this comes down to a question of accuracy, and someone who doesn't share in the conditioning at question is more likely to be able to gain a genuinely objective perspective on it. Of course, offering that sort of insight to someone who isn't interested in it is what it is, but then again, sometimes people just ask for it without asking, know what I mean? It gets old. And that's never the context here. It's not teacher/student. It's dueling gurus. It's usually an I'm realized and you're not tussle. As to conditioning, you're only truly privy to your own. I'm genuinely surprised someone would think that. |
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Death
Aug 5, 2022 13:32:57 GMT -5
Post by laughter on Aug 5, 2022 13:32:57 GMT -5
... I am free of the self. I am just the boat (i.e. body). No boatman. And ouroboros called me a liar to my face. He hung me in front of the world even before conducting an investigation to establish a prosecutable case to establish that the sin of lying has been committed. Our judicial system is operating in that way also. Presumption of guilt rather than innocence.
Pretty sure the word I used was deluded. But hey, you might find others here are more receptive to your proclamations of emptiness, or willing to take what you say at face value. Good luck with that. (** tsk tsk tsk **) perhaps you spent too much time debating the evil frog .. are vacuumsauna's like worts??  |
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Death
Aug 5, 2022 13:34:00 GMT -5
Post by laughter on Aug 5, 2022 13:34:00 GMT -5
It gets old. And that's never the context here. It's not teacher/student. It's dueling gurus. It's usually an I'm realized and you're not tussle. As to conditioning, you're only truly privy to your own. I'm genuinely surprised someone would think that. No two people have ever shared the exact same perspective on the Moon at exactly the same time. |
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Death
Aug 5, 2022 13:39:42 GMT -5
Post by ouroboros on Aug 5, 2022 13:39:42 GMT -5
I guess the short answer would be not-knowing, or ongoing ignorance (avijja). The fact is it's a pretty nuanced and wide-ranging circumstance that leads to the situation you describe. Simply put, there are at least vestiges of various skewed views that result in an imbalance between the way we consider or relate to those within our immediate sphere, versus those outside of it. So, conversely the situation could be said to be as a result of the absence of higher wisdom to the contrary, of clarity (vijja). To elaborate. The tendency seems to be, otoh to over-emphasise and place too much import on those in our immediate sphere, friends and family, etc. So ultimately too much emphasis on that which is ultimately transient in nature and in its extreme, it can lead to grief and suchlike at their perceived loss. And otoh the tendency is to do the reverse to those outside of our sphere, which is where this whole 'out of sight out of mind' disposition comes in I spose. Resulting in a certain apathy towards the plight of others, an absence of compassion. In some respects it can be thought of as a result of tribalism. So we just evolved that way. In the case of the mother there is bio-chemistry involved too.
Anyway, through rigorous self-honesty and being conscious we can recognise such patterns in ourselves and know them as a form of kammic latency. That we do place more emphasis on the wellbeing of family and friends than strangers I mean. Fact is even science tells us we're one big family. Although I expect my bacon number is quite high. However, the so called great spiritual teachers tell of a state where the disparity of which we speak is overcome. Something altogether more holistic I guess, and more balanced. Personal relationships are psychological bonds that tie the self to others. Such connections are complex and exclusive. They are links between unreal entities.
I always feel these sort of statements are a bit heavy handed and therefore overshoot the mark. As unfolding patterns it's all real enough. I don't understand your question. |
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Three things.