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Death
Aug 5, 2022 13:41:31 GMT -5
Post by zazeniac on Aug 5, 2022 13:41:31 GMT -5
It gets old. And that's never the context here. It's not teacher/student. It's dueling gurus. It's usually an I'm realized and you're not tussle. As to conditioning, you're only truly privy to your own. Yes, that's true, but sometimes people are playing a sort of game. Of learning by pretending to teach. It's actually a thing you know. Learning by pretending to teach what you want to learn. Some ego's are so big and blinding that they do this unconsciously. I don't disagree that there is only ever one subjective perspective on conditioning, but that's beside the point I offered. Do you see how your notion is related to the solipsism debate? It's true that you never think another's thoughts, you never feel exactly what they feel. Human perspective is profoundly unique, and there are many different ways to discern that. But sometimes, people make their thoughts and feelings very well known. Sometimes they make them more well known to everyone else than they do even to themselves. "Learning by pretending to teach?" Interesting. A thing I know? Not really. Not consciously. But you might be on to something. Enlighten me. I suspect the talk about emotions and thoughts is also an accusation. I'm a drama queen? Guilty as charged. |
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Post by ouroboros on Aug 5, 2022 13:42:46 GMT -5
Pretty sure the word I used was deluded. But hey, you might find others here are more receptive to your proclamations of emptiness, or willing to take what you say at face value. Good luck with that. (** tsk tsk tsk **) perhaps you spent too much time debating the evil frog .. are vacuumsauna's like worts??  Okay, misguided then. But I thought he said something to the effect that he valued the directness here. Fwiw I invite the same. It also happens to be the most accurate appraisal of the situation as I see it. Although I suspect our friend Sree may be about 50% trolling anyway. |
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Death
Aug 5, 2022 13:45:33 GMT -5
Post by ouroboros on Aug 5, 2022 13:45:33 GMT -5
I'm genuinely surprised someone would think that. No two people have ever shared the exact same perspective on the Moon at exactly the same time.  okay I can sorta take that point. |
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Post by laughter on Aug 5, 2022 13:49:34 GMT -5
Yes, that's true, but sometimes people are playing a sort of game. Of learning by pretending to teach. It's actually a thing you know. Learning by pretending to teach what you want to learn. Some ego's are so big and blinding that they do this unconsciously. I don't disagree that there is only ever one subjective perspective on conditioning, but that's beside the point I offered. Do you see how your notion is related to the solipsism debate? It's true that you never think another's thoughts, you never feel exactly what they feel. Human perspective is profoundly unique, and there are many different ways to discern that. But sometimes, people make their thoughts and feelings very well known. Sometimes they make them more well known to everyone else than they do even to themselves. "Learning by pretending to teach?" Interesting. A thing I know? Not really. Not consciously. But you might be on to something. Enlighten me. I suspect the talk about emotions and thoughts is also an accusation. I'm a drama queen? Guilty as charged. I posted something that might have gotten deleted for profanity (  ), in response to what you deleted. (or maybe it was an instance of those board glitches people have been calling out, I've been hyper-posting ...). I wasn't saying that you were trying to learn by teaching. I was guru-splainin' about the guru battles. I used a profanity instead of "guru" for humor.  Neither were my comments about ego directed at you, that was more 'splain'. Who knows? Perhaps that was me unconsciously trying to learn what I want to "know" by trying to teach.  |
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Post by ouroboros on Aug 5, 2022 13:50:13 GMT -5
Yes, that's true, but sometimes people are playing a sort of game. Of learning by pretending to teach. It's actually a thing you know. Learning by pretending to teach what you want to learn. Some ego's are so big and blinding that they do this unconsciously. I don't disagree that there is only ever one subjective perspective on conditioning, but that's beside the point I offered. Do you see how your notion is related to the solipsism debate? It's true that you never think another's thoughts, you never feel exactly what they feel. Human perspective is profoundly unique, and there are many different ways to discern that. But sometimes, people make their thoughts and feelings very well known. Sometimes they make them more well known to everyone else than they do even to themselves. "Learning by pretending to teach?" Interesting. A thing I know? Not really. Not consciously. But you might be on to something. Enlighten me. I suspect the talk about emotions and thoughts is also an accusation. I'm a drama queen? Guilty as charged. I quite like 'teaching what we need to learn', coz it's partly about opening it up for dialogue and to be tested by scrutiny. A process by which we can develop our own understanding through a process of refinement. Although it should also be noted it often begins as an unconscious process playing out. The specific interest that is. |
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Death
Aug 5, 2022 13:51:30 GMT -5
Post by laughter on Aug 5, 2022 13:51:30 GMT -5
(** tsk tsk tsk **) perhaps you spent too much time debating the evil frog .. are vacuumsauna's like worts?? Okay, misguided then. But I thought he said something to the effect that he valued the directness here. Fwiw I invite the same. It also happens to be the most accurate appraisal of the situation as I see it. Although I suspect our friend Sree may be about 50% trolling anyway. Yes, I suspect the same, and I was just kidding you. All in good fun. |
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Post by laughter on Aug 5, 2022 13:52:11 GMT -5
"Learning by pretending to teach?" Interesting. A thing I know? Not really. Not consciously. But you might be on to something. Enlighten me. I suspect the talk about emotions and thoughts is also an accusation. I'm a drama queen? Guilty as charged. I quite like 'teaching what we need to learn', coz it's partly about opening it up for dialogue and to be tested by scrutiny. A process by which we can develop our own understanding through a process of refinement. Although it shouls also be noted it often also begins as an unconscious process that plays out. The interest that is. Almost all of the TED talks are like 90% self therapy. |
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Post by zazeniac on Aug 5, 2022 14:10:59 GMT -5
"Learning by pretending to teach?" Interesting. A thing I know? Not really. Not consciously. But you might be on to something. Enlighten me. I suspect the talk about emotions and thoughts is also an accusation. I'm a drama queen? Guilty as charged. I posted something that might have gotten deleted for profanity ( ), in response to what you deleted. (or maybe it was an instance of those board glitches people have been calling out, I've been hyper-posting ...). I wasn't saying that you were trying to learn by teaching. I was guru-splainin' about the guru battles. I used a profanity instead of "guru" for humor. Neither were my comments about ego directed at you, that was more 'splain'. Who knows? Perhaps that was me unconsciously trying to learn what I want to "know" by trying to teach. Thanks for splaining. I do share a lot and I do struggle with my big head. So it wasn't bad. |
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Death
Aug 5, 2022 14:26:51 GMT -5
Post by sree on Aug 5, 2022 14:26:51 GMT -5
If I were a native of India, I would rather be a Sikh. To be fair, India is not all bad. I just wonder why they couldn't do better than China at running their country. As a people, they are as smart as the Chinese who are a lot smarter than us. As I said, the stuff that draws us to Chinese philosophy is the same wisdom packed in the words attributed to Jesus. Turning the other cheek when struck, is a call to break the cycle of violence driven by thought. The perception of the self, not just your own but that of the enemy, is created by thought. Rage is incited by the guy who crashes into you. If the other guy were an empty suit of armor that fell on you, would you take out a gun and shoot it? We are always in conflict with others even though there are neither others nor us.
In the Chuangtze, is a story about a man in a boat. Another craft was heading in his direction. He called out to alert the other guy to avoid colliding into him. No response. Apparently, his call was ignored and the approaching boat came closer. He got anxious and yelled out again. No response. When the other boat was about to crash into him, he let out a string of expletives and cursed the other boatman only to realize that there was no one there. He vent his rage on an empty boat. Not too longer ago, there was a news report of a guy who shot and killed his neighbor and his neighbor's wife. The couple from across the alley had blown snow onto his property and he gave them a piece of his mind. The bad relationship caused by one incursion or another had been building up over time. When the guy's admonition was ignored and to rub salt into his wound, the couple threw abuses at him. He got mad, went into his house, got his gun and came back out. When the neighbor's wife saw that he had armed himself, she dared him to shoot. He did. Killed both the woman and the neighbor. Then, he went back into his own house and shot himself. Sad. If only people realize that there are only human bodies empty of selves: just boats with no boatmen.
I am free of the self. I am just the boat (i.e. body). No boatman. And ouroboros called me a liar to my face. He hung me in front of the world even before conducting an investigation to establish a prosecutable case to establish that the sin of lying has been committed. Our judicial system is operating in that way also. Presumption of guilt rather than innocence.
Three things.
So are you saying that your parents where Sikh, and not Hindu? Were you taught and/or otherwise indoctrinated into Sikhism? As to our apparent mutual interest on the topic of Christianity and other spiritual traditions: The Romans either erased or co-opted as much of the old pre-Christian religion and other culture of north western Europe that they could. That continued long after the Empire collapsed through the influence of the Church. As an interesting digression, that explains why what I wrote about here is relative to Ireland, where the evidence suggests they never went in any significant military force, and, ironically, it was Irish monks who restored many of the classics that formed the basis of the Renaissance. The peculiarities of Patrick's church would form the basis for yet another potentially interesting digression. Now, one reason for that digression was for context in response to your allegation of defamation by ouroboros.  Much of that pre-Christian culture survived despite the best efforts of the Romans and their successors. Billy Shakes expressed quite a bit of it in his work. Much more survives in the form of old folksy aphorisms. Some cultural artifacts cast the shadows of existential truth, you know, like on the wall of Plato's cave? The better these follow the outlines of that truth, the harder they are to erase completely. so, to the extent that you're not joking in your complaint of injury as to having allegedly been called a liar: One of these old cultural artifacts is essentially a nursery "rhyme" for children: "sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me". Is my English that bad? I am a yank: my mother is Italian and father is Anglo-Saxon with some Viking ancestry. My affinity for Sikhs developed in Port Dickson, a town on the Malacca Straits. Hargit is a Sikh woman I hired to help in the kitchen of a cafe restaurant. I set up that eatery on a lark. My boat was in the marina where yachties would moor when they came through on their way to Thailand. Having a place in town to gather with them gave me an opportunity to embed within the local culture. An Irish expat, who had an apartment at the marina, came in a couple of times a week for lunch. She thought I was a CIA asset, while I suspected her to be MI5. Anyway, Harjit gave me a view of how Punjabis live among themselves. Her husband, Jagjit, worked at the oil depot. Sikhs gather in their temple once a week where the women would cook lunch and the men chatter. If I had the power, I would ship American women to Punjab for spiritual training.
As for Christianity, are you saying that Christian ethics have nothing to do with Judaism? I would agree. Christianity, as I see it, is not an Abrahamic religion. I go by feel when I read spiritual teachings from any tradition.
As for being called a liar, I wasn't joking at all. I did say I was free of the self. I know it sounds preposterous. It is, even to me. Jumping to conclusion that I am the bad guy because I am a threat to the status quo is what Americans are doing these days. It like W. Bush saying, "If you are not with us, then you are against us." Not good, man.
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Death
Aug 5, 2022 14:34:36 GMT -5
Post by laughter on Aug 5, 2022 14:34:36 GMT -5
Three things.
So are you saying that your parents where Sikh, and not Hindu? Were you taught and/or otherwise indoctrinated into Sikhism? As to our apparent mutual interest on the topic of Christianity and other spiritual traditions: The Romans either erased or co-opted as much of the old pre-Christian religion and other culture of north western Europe that they could. That continued long after the Empire collapsed through the influence of the Church. As an interesting digression, that explains why what I wrote about here is relative to Ireland, where the evidence suggests they never went in any significant military force, and, ironically, it was Irish monks who restored many of the classics that formed the basis of the Renaissance. The peculiarities of Patrick's church would form the basis for yet another potentially interesting digression. Now, one reason for that digression was for context in response to your allegation of defamation by ouroboros. Much of that pre-Christian culture survived despite the best efforts of the Romans and their successors. Billy Shakes expressed quite a bit of it in his work. Much more survives in the form of old folksy aphorisms. Some cultural artifacts cast the shadows of existential truth, you know, like on the wall of Plato's cave? The better these follow the outlines of that truth, the harder they are to erase completely. so, to the extent that you're not joking in your complaint of injury as to having allegedly been called a liar: One of these old cultural artifacts is essentially a nursery "rhyme" for children: "sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me". Is my English that bad? I am a yank: my mother is Italian and father is Anglo-Saxon with some Viking ancestry. My affinity for Sikhs developed in Port Dickson, a town on the Malacca Straits. Hargit is a Sikh woman I hired to help in the kitchen of a cafe restaurant. I set up that eatery on a lark. My boat was in the marina where yachties would moor when they came through on their way to Thailand. Having a place in town to gather with them gave me an opportunity to embed within the local culture. An Irish expat, who had an apartment at the marina, came in a couple of times a week for lunch. She thought I was a CIA asset, while I suspected her to be MI5. Anyway, Harjit gave me a view of how Punjabis live among themselves. Her husband, Jagjit, worked at the oil depot. Sikhs gather in their temple once a week where the women would cook lunch and the men chatter. If I had the power, I would ship American women to Punjab for spiritual training. As for Christianity, are you saying that Christian ethics have nothing to do with Judaism? I would agree. Christianity, as I see it, is not an Abrahamic religion. I go by feel when I read spiritual teachings from any tradition.
As for being called a liar, I wasn't joking at all. I did say I was free of the self. I know it sounds preposterous. It is, even to me. Jumping to conclusion that I am the bad guy because I am a threat to the status quo is what Americans are doing these days. It like W. Bush saying, "If you are not with us, then you are against us." Not good, man.
Ah, ok, thanks for 'splainin'. For context, my personal question to you was based on my apparent misreading of this: Your formative years living among Christians have made you unreceptive to Jesus' teaching. I am that way also with regard to Hinduism. Any mention of an Indian guru shuts out my receptors. No, my ramble about Christianity wasn't to make any point about ethics or the relation to Judaism. Sometimes I enjoy a discursive digression into history or science, and I guess you might have missed the humor there that was at your expense. I've been over it with you about your realization and how I find it to be contradictory to some of your interests and the way you express them.  |
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Death
Aug 5, 2022 14:52:00 GMT -5
Post by sree on Aug 5, 2022 14:52:00 GMT -5
Personal relationships are psychological bonds that tie the self to others. Such connections are complex and exclusive. They are links between unreal entities.
I always feel these sort of statements are a bit heavy handed and therefore overshoot the mark. As unfolding patterns it's all real enough. I don't understand your question. Unreal entities are real enough? Not to me. Do trees have uncles?
As for the question you don't understand, I was asking you why do you have to invoke scripture? What is vijja? Do I have to tread the Noble Eight-fold Path, acquaint and indoctrinate myself before I can engage your holiness in dialogue?
Wandering through Kuala Lumpur, I walked into the grounds of a Buddhist Vihara. A monk was sweeping the grounds. I engage him in conversation. When it got difficult for him, he pointed to an inner office and asked me to talk to the Abbot. I went to the door and there was a woman dignitary of some sort in there bowing to him. When she left, I walked in. The Abbot was nice enough to talk to me but when it got difficult for him, he got mad. Not visibly angry but I could sense it. He said to me: "You are asking questions that are at the end of the journey. You need to start at the beginning. We have Buddhist classes. Please attend those classes."
How many lifetimes would I need before I can have conversations with all the Abbots in this forum?
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Death
Aug 5, 2022 15:12:29 GMT -5
Post by sree on Aug 5, 2022 15:12:29 GMT -5
Is my English that bad? I am a yank: my mother is Italian and father is Anglo-Saxon with some Viking ancestry. My affinity for Sikhs developed in Port Dickson, a town on the Malacca Straits. Hargit is a Sikh woman I hired to help in the kitchen of a cafe restaurant. I set up that eatery on a lark. My boat was in the marina where yachties would moor when they came through on their way to Thailand. Having a place in town to gather with them gave me an opportunity to embed within the local culture. An Irish expat, who had an apartment at the marina, came in a couple of times a week for lunch. She thought I was a CIA asset, while I suspected her to be MI5. Anyway, Harjit gave me a view of how Punjabis live among themselves. Her husband, Jagjit, worked at the oil depot. Sikhs gather in their temple once a week where the women would cook lunch and the men chatter. If I had the power, I would ship American women to Punjab for spiritual training. As for Christianity, are you saying that Christian ethics have nothing to do with Judaism? I would agree. Christianity, as I see it, is not an Abrahamic religion. I go by feel when I read spiritual teachings from any tradition.
As for being called a liar, I wasn't joking at all. I did say I was free of the self. I know it sounds preposterous. It is, even to me. Jumping to conclusion that I am the bad guy because I am a threat to the status quo is what Americans are doing these days. It like W. Bush saying, "If you are not with us, then you are against us." Not good, man.
Ah, ok, thanks for 'splainin'. For context, my personal question to you was based on my apparent misreading of this: Your formative years living among Christians have made you unreceptive to Jesus' teaching. I am that way also with regard to Hinduism. Any mention of an Indian guru shuts out my receptors. No, my ramble about Christianity wasn't to make any point about ethics or the relation to Judaism. Sometimes I enjoy a discursive digression into history or science, and I guess you might have missed the humor there that was at your expense. I've been over it with you about your realization and how I find it to be contradictory to some of your interests and the way you express them. Why didn't you point to the contradictions? Help me see them. Is spiritual inquiry not supposed to be this way: help each other get out of the existential trap?
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Death
Aug 5, 2022 15:32:42 GMT -5
Post by ouroboros on Aug 5, 2022 15:32:42 GMT -5
I always feel these sort of statements are a bit heavy handed and therefore overshoot the mark. As unfolding patterns it's all real enough. I don't understand your question. Unreal entities are real enough? Not to me. Do trees have uncles? Ha! I could probably make an argument for it, but it's largely beside the point. Ah okay. Well this may come as a shock to you, Mr empty boat, but not everything I write is exclusively for your benefit. I tend to have half a mind on the spartans. Anyway, I suggest you take what you can from my words and discard the rest. It's not possible to put a figure on it, but there's something to be said for not trying to run before we can walk. Although I can certainly understand the minds propensity to want to skip to the ending to see if the book is worth reading. You won't be able to employ someone to wipe your backside on this one though. Ya know why. Coz in many respects it's not about the destination it's about the journey. |
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Death
Aug 5, 2022 15:39:40 GMT -5
Post by sree on Aug 5, 2022 15:39:40 GMT -5
Unreal entities are real enough? Not to me. Do trees have uncles? Ha! I could probably make an argument for it, but it's largely beside the point. Ah okay. Well this may come as a shock to you, Mr empty boat, but not everything I write is exclusively for your benefit. I tend to have half a mind on the spartans. Anyway, I suggest you take what you can from my words and discard the rest. It's not possible to put a figure on it, but there's something to be said for not trying to run before we can walk. Although I can certainly understand the minds propensity to want to skip to the ending to see if the book is worth reading. You won't be able to employ someone to wipe your backside on this one though. Ya know why. Coz in many respects it's not about the destination it's about the journey.
I swear I read that somewhere. It would be good to talk to a living person. Talking to you guys is like talking to written books. I know you folks are well read and all that, but can you folks speak directly from the depth of nothingness?
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Death
Aug 5, 2022 15:47:31 GMT -5
Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 5, 2022 15:47:31 GMT -5
Ah, ok, thanks for 'splainin'. For context, my personal question to you was based on my apparent misreading of this: No, my ramble about Christianity wasn't to make any point about ethics or the relation to Judaism. Sometimes I enjoy a discursive digression into history or science, and I guess you might have missed the humor there that was at your expense. I've been over it with you about your realization and how I find it to be contradictory to some of your interests and the way you express them. Why didn't you point to the contradictions? Help me see them. Is spiritual inquiry not supposed to be this way: help each other get out of the existential trap? It can't be done directly, ever. |
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