Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Death
Aug 5, 2022 2:22:19 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2022 2:22:19 GMT -5
I hafta confess my attention span when it comes to reading is quite limited. What I tend to do is skim the bigger stuff, or better still, when I have a query- search out relevant passages from various sources and see what the common threads are and how that tallies with my own insight. But I rarely get into any volume of work. It might be a failing of mine, idk. It's just the way I roll. Thanks for the link though, I just had a skim and it looks like some nuggets. Yeah each chapter dicusses an aspect of being and the mental terrain of it from a variety of perspectives. Good stuff. I think it was in here that we talked about the time span of Siddhartha's teaching compared with Jesus's. Siddhartha had decades to refine what he wanted to say whereas Jesus never got the time to have feedback sessions, where people could explain their interpretation and Jesus could have rephrased his words, where necessary. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Death
Aug 5, 2022 2:24:44 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2022 2:24:44 GMT -5
Why don't we relate with each other the way a mother relates with her offspring? The presence of the self does not prevent the mother from caring for the child. Affection. Not altruism.
Krishnamurti said that love is when the self is not. In the case of the mother, love is even when the self is there.
We might have a breakthrough here. This is worth exploring. Because that would infantilse a developing species. A good mother relating to her adult children, is a promising direction of growth. |
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Aug 5, 2022 3:43:38 GMT -5
I reckon that people in general would say that they 'know themselves' better than other people could possibly know them, but like you, I don't think this is necessarily true. 25 years ago I was seeing a counsellor, who pointed out patterns of conditioning in me, and it took me several weeks before I could honestly see what he was seeing. During those few weeks, it confused me more than anything, I could only vaguely see what he was seeing. Of course, he didn't know whether I like chocolate, or what football team I supported....but he knew what made me 'tick'. He could see my insecurities. He knew my unconsciously held beliefs. Yeah the FBI profilers are another good example of professionals who are trained to be able to tell what's going on with you. Folks think their thoughts live in their private mindscapes and so are exclusive to them, but in truth much of that can be evident if you know the patterns to look for. If you have the 'template', (or insight), certain subtle mannerisms, behaviours and countenance can indicate all sorts of things. And so it is when folks conduct themselves in general. It's apparent enough if you know what to look for. It's also the case that we naturally assess all that anyway, perhaps largely unconsciously, or automatically as a kind of risk/reward assessment when we engage with others. It just so happens that the more insightful one is and the more present they are, the better they will be at recognising and correctly interpreting patterns. Both in themselves and in others. It’s a natural development. It's a good point that it can come through specific training too, and what I'm talking about tends to come through a combination of rigorous self-honesty, insight and being conscious/present. As an aside, in terms of woo it can be taken further. It's said the Buddha could literally know the mind of another. It's listed as one of the supranormal powers of a buddha (iddhi).
I'm reminded of the following quote;
Be careful what you think, for your thoughts become your words. Be careful what you say, for your words become your actions. Be careful what you do, for your actions become your habits. Be careful what becomes habitual, for your habits become your destiny. Like the quote. The problem with the profilers is that they're only ever producing an abstract, cardboard cut-out. Seems to me that this is an instance where intent is very important. Such commonality can be used to facilitate mutual understanding or healing. It can also be used as a predictive tool for the purpose of social control. |
|
|
|
Death
Aug 5, 2022 3:53:07 GMT -5
Post by laughter on Aug 5, 2022 3:53:07 GMT -5
I stopped watching when Jesus said, Be perfect. That must have been verse 5:28. And if it wasn't clear he added, as God is perfect. You probably know well enough not to perceive Tao the way a Taiwanese Taoist priest does. I once watched that guy prancing around with a kung fu sword before an altar. He then went into a trance and scribbled Chinese characters on a slip of rice paper, set it afire, and dunk it into a glass of water for a devotee to drink. It was for curing a mental ailment. And that behavior would not deter you from reading Chaungtze or Laotze. Coarse minds exist in every culture. Practitioners of the Christian faith are no better exponents of Jesus' teaching than Taoists are at living by the principles alluded to in the Tao Te Ching. Your formative years living among Christians have made you unreceptive to Jesus' teaching. I am that way also with regard to Hinduism. Any mention of an Indian guru shuts out my receptors.
India was a shocking experience from the moment I stepped off the plane and walked into the airport at Chennai. It got worse when I got into a taxi after a tug of war among the cab drivers. Halfway into the city, my cabbie pulled into a gas station. He asked for some rupees to buy the gas. I gave him the money and he pulled out the gas cap which was a rolled up stub of newspaper and started filling up his cab. Fcking hell. I realized I was riding in a bomb on wheels. After filling up, he shoved his "gas cap" back in and motioned to me to get in the cab to resume our journey to my hotel. India stinks. This is not a figure of speech. After 2000 years or more of Twat Tam Asi, the subcontinent still reeks of human excrement and human suffering. And yet, you guys swear by the teaching of Ramana, and love stamping on Gopal. The story of Jesus is silly. It is a distraction, irrelevant and should be discarded. The Sermon on the Mount points to the cause of human suffering. It's prescriptive tone offends the American who does not like to be told. Be perfect. This is the central teaching of Confucius: the perfect man. Laotze points to the same thing too, but in the other way round by admonishing the fool.
Your parents were Hindu? Why would you tell us white men to listen to a silly story just 'cause our parents told it to us?  |
|
|
|
Death
Aug 5, 2022 6:36:05 GMT -5
Post by someNOTHING! on Aug 5, 2022 6:36:05 GMT -5
I think altruism is a misconceived concept. As you pointed out, 'selfless self' is not the answer. That's just another round of identity poker in the spiritual circus, a self masquerading as selfless. True selflessness would require acting from a perspective of no-self. Which means a perspective prior to self. Which means a perspective prior to selfish vs. selfless, altruism vs. selfishness. As I keep saying, you can't live a concept. Sure, I agree with this actually. It's well put. Selfless self sounds more likely to be halo polishing. The ‘selfless self’ is mind-as-the-master hoodwinking and halo polishing, as the realization hasn’t transcended that of separation. As such, the mind might think of itself as a ‘Selfless self’, hehe. But to KNOW is to know it is just not true, and the ‘self is more like a serf to the Self’, and typically self is caught up in its own confusion. Important to know what one doesn’t know, which is A LOT. But, in all compassion, it can be understood why the thinking might get confused. It might be too radical to 'assume' there is no self, and to try to understand 'why' (i.e., via seeking). But that evidently gets a bit too weird for most. It's kinda going for the jugular of the issues at hand and causes a bit of a spectacle, and that's just kinda how some peeps roll. It can work, and that's all that matters. Lotsa selfless selves on pathless paths. |
|
|
|
Post by someNOTHING! on Aug 5, 2022 7:10:51 GMT -5
I stopped watching when Jesus said, Be perfect. That must have been verse 5:28. And if it wasn't clear he added, as God is perfect. You probably know well enough not to perceive Tao the way a Taiwanese Taoist priest does. I once watched that guy prancing around with a kung fu sword before an altar. He then went into a trance and scribbled Chinese characters on a slip of rice paper, set it afire, and dunk it into a glass of water for a devotee to drink. It was for curing a mental ailment. And that behavior would not deter you from reading Chaungtze or Laotze. Coarse minds exist in every culture. Practitioners of the Christian faith are no better exponents of Jesus' teaching than Taoists are at living by the principles alluded to in the Tao Te Ching. Your formative years living among Christians have made you unreceptive to Jesus' teaching. I am that way also with regard to Hinduism. Any mention of an Indian guru shuts out my receptors.
India was a shocking experience from the moment I stepped off the plane and walked into the airport at Chennai. It got worse when I got into a taxi after a tug of war among the cab drivers. Halfway into the city, my cabbie pulled into a gas station. He asked for some rupees to buy the gas. I gave him the money and he pulled out the gas cap which was a rolled up stub of newspaper and started filling up his cab. Fcking hell. I realized I was riding in a bomb on wheels. After filling up, he shoved his "gas cap" back in and motioned to me to get in the cab to resume our journey to my hotel. India stinks. This is not a figure of speech. After 2000 years or more of Twat Tam Asi, the subcontinent still reeks of human excrement and human suffering. And yet, you guys swear by the teaching of Ramana, and love stamping on Gopal. The story of Jesus is silly. It is a distraction, irrelevant and should be discarded. The Sermon on the Mount points to the cause of human suffering. It's prescriptive tone offends the American who does not like to be told. Be perfect. This is the central teaching of Confucius: the perfect man. Laotze points to the same thing too, but in the other way round by admonishing the fool.
I kind of agree about the Confucius and Laotze takes. Confucianism was more about 'creating a harmony between heaven and earth' in society, while Laotse was more about negating a lot of the influences that cloud one's view of what heaven/perfection might be. There was a reason why the story has him writing the Tao Te Ching as he was leaving. It's interesting what peeps do with the teachings to mold them to their own world views and agendas. I also see how they resonated together to blossom in the intermingling with Buddhist thought. Notice how their stories kind of point in the directions of piercing through social norms (or leaving society altogether), but, once spotting and then riding the ox, returns to society. It can be pretty cool juxtaposing how the Far Eastern cultures, the South Asian cultures, etc approach, value, and express the realization of what is ultimate and undivided. There are nuggets in them to be harvested, but can be quite hard to acknowledge in the state of confusion and ignorance. As such, SR/TR 'appear' quite radical when one is searching for what it could be. You seem to focus a lot on appearances and to express a lot of assumptions at times. That's OK, as it is part of the searching and inquiry. I get more curious in seeing what happens when you occasionally give up on that endeavor and your attention is on the substrates of the thinking, assumptions, and attachments. Undermining the validity of one's beliefs is what dissolves one's delusion. Perfection is not about such 'outward' appearances or conditioned perceptions, but THAT in/from which they appear. |
|
|
|
Death
Aug 5, 2022 7:46:56 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 5, 2022 7:46:56 GMT -5
sdp said: I stopped watching when Jesus said, Be perfect. That must have been verse 5:28. And if it wasn't clear he added, as God is perfect. sree said: You probably know well enough not to perceive Tao the way a Taiwanese Taoist priest does. I once watched that guy prancing around with a kung fu sword before an altar. He then went into a trance and scribbled Chinese characters on a slip of rice paper, set it afire, and dunk it into a glass of water for a devotee to drink. It was for curing a mental ailment. And that behavior would not deter you from reading Chaungtze or Laotze. Coarse minds exist in every culture. Practitioners of the Christian faith are no better exponents of Jesus' teaching than Taoists are at living by the principles alluded to in the Tao Te Ching. Your formative years living among Christians have made you unreceptive to Jesus' teaching. I am that way also with regard to Hinduism. Any mention of an Indian guru shuts out my receptors. India was a shocking experience from the moment I stepped off the plane and walked into the airport at Chennai. It got worse when I got into a taxi after a tug of war among the cab drivers. Halfway into the city, my cabbie pulled into a gas station. He asked for some rupees to buy the gas. I gave him the money and he pulled out the gas cap which was a rolled up stub of newspaper and started filling up his cab. Fcking hell. I realized I was riding in a bomb on wheels. After filling up, he shoved his "gas cap" back in and motioned to me to get in the cab to resume our journey to my hotel. India stinks. This is not a figure of speech. After 2000 years or more of Twat Tam Asi, the subcontinent still reeks of human excrement and human suffering. And yet, you guys swear by the teaching of Ramana, and love stamping on Gopal. The story of Jesus is silly. It is a distraction, irrelevant and should be discarded. The Sermon on the Mount points to the cause of human suffering. It's prescriptive tone offends the American who does not like to be told. Be perfect. This is the central teaching of Confucius: the perfect man. Laotze points to the same thing too, but in the other way round by admonishing the fool. sdp said: You have not heard one word I've said. I've said fundamentalist Christians don't understand Jesus. Jesus basically said, I'm the model, Peter said it too of Jesus. But fundamentalist Christians believe Jesus did it all for them (his death), and all they have to do is believe. This is a complete misconception of what Jesus was all about. Paul didn't help any, but his teaching is misunderstood also. Jesus was about personal transformation here and now. Jesus, if you read his words carefully, was saying and showing he is the model, the individual has to do the work. Jesus was very clear, he said the things I do you can do. He also said the words I speak will be your judge. Christians don't think that refers to them. Yes, Jesus said the nice sweet things in the Sermon on the Mount, but just as important is the other part. I once wrote out the things Jesus said to do. I ended up with two typed pages single spaced. Fundamentalist Christians just ignore that, or don't even know it's there. What Jesus said to do is at odds with Christians who think they need to do nothing except believe. I heard you, but why do you care what fundamentalist Christians understand or don't understand? You read the Sermon on the Mount. What do YOU understand? That's all that matters. Why give a damn what people around you think? You are the world. 😀 I will send you a free copy when my book comes out. |
|
|
|
Post by zazeniac on Aug 5, 2022 8:12:41 GMT -5
Most of us, Westerners--is there such a thing?--, spend the majority of our time rehearsing in our heads how things will turn out. We do it usually without noticing. Rehearsing what we'll write on ST, what we'll say to the wife about being late or the boss about our raises. Focused on how things turn out. We're all Westerners now. Everyone. It's the culture of business, of commerce, of media.
|
|
|
|
Death
Aug 5, 2022 8:59:14 GMT -5
Post by sree on Aug 5, 2022 8:59:14 GMT -5
Most of us, Westerners--is there such a thing?--, spend the majority of our time rehearsing in our heads how things will turn out. We do it usually without noticing. Rehearsing what we'll write on ST, what we'll say to the wife about being late or the boss about our raises. Focused on how things turn out. We're all Westerners now. Everyone. It's the culture of business, of commerce, of media. Yes. The entire planet is westernized. Do you realize that across all cultures women wear bras and men put on underwear like us in the west? The western way is designed for the self. Traditional underwear is designed for the body. We are all men in this forum; so it's ok to watch this.
|
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 5, 2022 9:33:29 GMT -5
Most of us, Westerners--is there such a thing?--, spend the majority of our time rehearsing in our heads how things will turn out. We do it usually without noticing. Rehearsing what we'll write on ST, what we'll say to the wife about being late or the boss about our raises. Focused on how things turn out. We're all Westerners now. Everyone. It's the culture of business, of commerce, of media. The brain is basically a prediction machine, so say today's neuroscientists. But it was meant for a split second, or seconds at the most, is that movement in the bushes the wind or a beast that will eat me? Abstraction has dragged that capacity into minutes, hours, days, weeks, months, years. Adrenaline and cortisol are meant to last for minutes, not HDWMY. |
|
|
|
Post by ouroboros on Aug 5, 2022 10:09:10 GMT -5
Why don't we relate with each other the way a mother relates with her offspring? The presence of the self does not prevent the mother from caring for the child. Affection. Not altruism.
Krishnamurti said that love is when the self is not. In the case of the mother, love is even when the self is there.
We might have a breakthrough here. This is worth exploring.
I guess the short answer would be not-knowing, or ongoing ignorance (avijja). The fact is it's a pretty nuanced and wide-ranging circumstance that leads to the situation you describe. Simply put, there are at least vestiges of various skewed views that result in an imbalance between the way we consider or relate to those within our immediate sphere, versus those outside of it. So, conversely the situation could be said to be as a result of the absence of higher wisdom to the contrary, of clarity (vijja). To elaborate. The tendency seems to be, otoh to over-emphasise and place too much import on those in our immediate sphere, friends and family, etc. So ultimately too much emphasis on that which is ultimately transient in nature and in its extreme, it can lead to grief and suchlike at their perceived loss. And otoh the tendency is to do the reverse to those outside of our sphere, which is where this whole 'out of sight out of mind' disposition comes in I spose. Resulting in a certain apathy towards the plight of others, an absence of compassion. In some respects it can be thought of as a result of tribalism. So we just evolved that way. In the case of the mother there is bio-chemistry involved too.
Anyway, through rigorous self-honesty and being conscious we can recognise such patterns in ourselves and know them as a form of kammic latency. That we do place more emphasis on the wellbeing of family and friends than strangers I mean. Fact is even science tells us we're one big family. Although I expect my bacon number is quite high. However, the so called great spiritual teachers tell of a state where the disparity of which we speak is overcome. Something altogether more holistic I guess, and more balanced. |
|
|
|
Death
Aug 5, 2022 10:15:50 GMT -5
Post by ouroboros on Aug 5, 2022 10:15:50 GMT -5
I hafta confess my attention span when it comes to reading is quite limited. What I tend to do is skim the bigger stuff, or better still, when I have a query- search out relevant passages from various sources and see what the common threads are and how that tallies with my own insight. But I rarely get into any volume of work. It might be a failing of mine, idk. It's just the way I roll. Thanks for the link though, I just had a skim and it looks like some nuggets. Yeah each chapter dicusses an aspect of being and the mental terrain of it from a variety of perspectives. Good stuff. I think it was in here that we talked about the time span of Siddhartha's teaching compared with Jesus's. Siddhartha had decades to refine what he wanted to say whereas Jesus never got the time to have feedback sessions, where people could explain their interpretation and Jesus could have rephrased his words, where necessary. Yes, it's also interesting to note that apparently there was no writing during the time and place of the Buddha. So there was particular emphasis on the fact that everything was transmitted verbally and committing it all to memory. That's perhaps one reason why a lot of it is quite formulaic. Purposefully constructed, and probably refined over time as you say. In both instances the teachings are said to have only been committed to writing some time later, albeit supposedly by those in a direct chain or lineage to the original teacher. In any event I guess we just have to consider them on merit and take what we can from them. |
|
|
|
Post by ouroboros on Aug 5, 2022 10:19:44 GMT -5
Yeah the FBI profilers are another good example of professionals who are trained to be able to tell what's going on with you. Folks think their thoughts live in their private mindscapes and so are exclusive to them, but in truth much of that can be evident if you know the patterns to look for. If you have the 'template', (or insight), certain subtle mannerisms, behaviours and countenance can indicate all sorts of things. And so it is when folks conduct themselves in general. It's apparent enough if you know what to look for. It's also the case that we naturally assess all that anyway, perhaps largely unconsciously, or automatically as a kind of risk/reward assessment when we engage with others. It just so happens that the more insightful one is and the more present they are, the better they will be at recognising and correctly interpreting patterns. Both in themselves and in others. It’s a natural development. It's a good point that it can come through specific training too, and what I'm talking about tends to come through a combination of rigorous self-honesty, insight and being conscious/present. As an aside, in terms of woo it can be taken further. It's said the Buddha could literally know the mind of another. It's listed as one of the supranormal powers of a buddha (iddhi).
I'm reminded of the following quote;
Be careful what you think, for your thoughts become your words. Be careful what you say, for your words become your actions. Be careful what you do, for your actions become your habits. Be careful what becomes habitual, for your habits become your destiny. Like the quote. The problem with the profilers is that they're only ever producing an abstract, cardboard cut-out. Seems to me that this is an instance where intent is very important. Such commonality can be used to facilitate mutual understanding or healing. It can also be used as a predictive tool for the purpose of social control. Sure, I can relate to your cardboard cut-out depiction, and your use of the word tool. Sme thing had occurred to me, and in some respects that's what it is in those instances, something learned and trained, something developed. Whereas, what I was talking about tends to come about more naturally under the circumstances, and perhaps more comprehensively. But I guess the point was that certain aspects of the technique involved, if you will, are comparable. And I think Andrew was right to just highlight that there are other instances where someone can perhaps be said to have a better idea of what's going on with you than yourself. The phrase intervention springs to mind as well. |
|
|
|
Post by ouroboros on Aug 5, 2022 10:26:18 GMT -5
Sure, I agree with this actually. It's well put. Selfless self sounds more likely to be halo polishing. The ‘selfless self’ is mind-as-the-master hoodwinking and halo polishing, as the realization hasn’t transcended that of separation. As such, the mind might think of itself as a ‘Selfless self’, hehe. But to KNOW is to know it is just not true, and the ‘self is more like a serf to the Self’, and typically self is caught up in its own confusion. Important to know what one doesn’t know, which is A LOT. But, in all compassion, it can be understood why the thinking might get confused. It might be too radical to 'assume' there is no self, and to try to understand 'why' (i.e., via seeking). But that evidently gets a bit too weird for most. It's kinda going for the jugular of the issues at hand and causes a bit of a spectacle, and that's just kinda how some peeps roll. It can work, and that's all that matters. Lotsa selfless selves on pathless paths. Ain't that the troof! |
|
|
|
Death
Aug 5, 2022 10:28:29 GMT -5
Post by sree on Aug 5, 2022 10:28:29 GMT -5
Most of us, Westerners--is there such a thing?--, spend the majority of our time rehearsing in our heads how things will turn out. We do it usually without noticing. Rehearsing what we'll write on ST, what we'll say to the wife about being late or the boss about our raises. Focused on how things turn out. We're all Westerners now. Everyone. It's the culture of business, of commerce, of media. is basically a prediction machine, so say today's neuroscientists. But it was meant for a split second, or seconds at the most, is that movement in the bushes the wind or a beast that will eat me? Abstraction has dragged that capacity into minutes, hours, days, weeks, months, years. Adrenaline and cortisol are meant to last for minutes, not HDWMY. Perception conditioned by the ontology of science creates a world, a virtual reality of time, space and matter. At the center of this metaverse, is you, the observer, the self. You are that metaverse, and that metaverse is you.
Consciousness, the state of awareness that arises from conditioned perception becomes the prison. It's not a prison if you are content to live as a human being with family and friends in a world such as ours. Be like farmer. he is a white guy like you. He comes here to banter with you. He lives in the South with his grand kids. Does he care about violent crime and nuclear weapons in the hands of God knows who? No, his grand kids will find their own way to live as happy as he is doing now.
Be like farmer. It's doable and a lot more sane. Being the selfless self to walk on the pathless path is just as weird as being an evangelical or fundamentalist Christian waiting for Jesus to come again. They say it's the end times and all the signs are here: America divided, pestilence (Covid and more variants, monkey pox), geopolitical instability (NATO bugging Russia, Nancy needling China, Israel at the center as the prophets predicted). |
|
