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Death
Jul 17, 2022 14:17:34 GMT -5
Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 17, 2022 14:17:34 GMT -5
About Ikkyu
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Death
Jul 17, 2022 14:20:11 GMT -5
Post by sree on Jul 17, 2022 14:20:11 GMT -5
Exactly! And the living are all crazy.
Martha is not dead. The body - that was moving around and doing all the things it was doing - is dead. That body was called Martha just as yours is called laughter. Look, I don't want to make fun of people. If you want to bow to a Buddha statue, it's your business. Asking me to join you and bow to a block of stone is to compel me to affirm your sanity. You are not sane. Your feeling of loss comes from a consciousness that can kill and maim. Do you think that the mass shooter that you view as mentally ill is cut from a different cloth? Given the right circumstance, you would be him. He also can feel the kind of loss you are talking about. Different body, Same consciousness. You don't need to share in their feelings of loss or grief to feel compassion for them, and neither is it insane to feel loss at the passing of someone close. As I've already explained, pain is inevitable, but suffering, isn't.  The insanity is in the suffering.  The 2 pm to 5pm "Celebration of Life" event has just started. I watched them leave the house next door with friends who had come to accompany them to the venue. Lots of hugs. Will he still say "hello" to me after this? Would you, if you were my neighbor?
Why do you make a distinction between pain and suffering?
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Death
Jul 17, 2022 14:39:39 GMT -5
Post by sree on Jul 17, 2022 14:39:39 GMT -5
How? Can you offer some clues? It wasn't possible to get into Krishnamurti's head. Can you do better?
I don't think you are being serious here. This is not helpful. The surgical team comprise you, the surgeon in "no time" mode working with the anesthesiologist, nurses, surgical tech, physician assistant, medical device rep., all of whom are in the "in time" mode.
Can you tell me how you would orientate your bodily movements in the 'no time' state of yours? The medical devices are all monitoring your patient's vital signs. They are machines working in sync with the rest of your team in the "in time' mode.
I am serious. You are jumping to other conclusions other than what I wrote. Maybe especially read the linked post again. Has your mind ever ceased this continuous 'monkey-mind' chain of thoughts? Just sit. There will be sounds. You don't hear the surrounding sounds, unless you attend to them. Or just observe something in your environment, one thing, just focus. Again, any thought is from a previous recorded event. It could be five seconds or 5 years. So if the mind is thinking (thoughts), you are not in the present moment. If you are thinking, you are necessarily in the past, or future. So, just focus, on something. When thoughts cease, there is more-of-a-chance you are in the present moment. If so when so, you are synchronized with passing events (not behind because of thinking-memory, or ahead through imagination). This simultaneously, is timelessness. Go back and read the posts. The new-doctor-intern, has to practice, literally, under an experienced doctor. Because he has merely passed all the tests. The intern does not have all his knowledge, in immediacy-readiness. His knowledge is in s-l-o-w memory. With practice, doctor has his surgery skills in present-moment-immediacy. Just try. Today, you could have 3 seconds of a silent mind. I understand what you are saying. I don't buy what Krishnamurti advocated. Perhaps, he could do it - watch thought till it stops.
The human consciousness is what it has become. The constant chattering. The "in time" state is what we are. I don't view it as something to be corrected. What needs correction is our perception of reality.
Let me ask you this. Does the Planet Earth exists? This is not trick question.
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Death
Jul 17, 2022 14:54:42 GMT -5
Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 17, 2022 14:54:42 GMT -5
I am serious. You are jumping to other conclusions other than what I wrote. Maybe especially read the linked post again. Has your mind ever ceased this continuous 'monkey-mind' chain of thoughts? Just sit. There will be sounds. You don't hear the surrounding sounds, unless you attend to them. Or just observe something in your environment, one thing, just focus. Again, any thought is from a previous recorded event. It could be five seconds or 5 years. So if the mind is thinking (thoughts), you are not in the present moment. If you are thinking, you are necessarily in the past, or future. So, just focus, on something. When thoughts cease, there is more-of-a-chance you are in the present moment. If so when so, you are synchronized with passing events (not behind because of thinking-memory, or ahead through imagination). This simultaneously, is timelessness. Go back and read the posts. The new-doctor-intern, has to practice, literally, under an experienced doctor. Because he has merely passed all the tests. The intern does not have all his knowledge, in immediacy-readiness. His knowledge is in s-l-o-w memory. With practice, doctor has his surgery skills in present-moment-immediacy. Just try. Today, you could have 3 seconds of a silent mind. I understand what you are saying. I don't buy what Krishnamurti advocated. Perhaps, he could do it - watch thought till it stops.
The human consciousness is what it has become. The constant chattering. The "in time" state is what we are. I don't view it as something to be corrected. What needs correction is our perception of reality.
Let me ask you this. Does the Planet Earth exists? This is not trick question.
Yes, the Earth exists. Yes, the perceiver is the problem. We perceive what we are. But there is a something underneath the what we are, the basis. I always wanted to get to the next layer, underneath. |
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Death
Jul 17, 2022 15:21:28 GMT -5
Post by sree on Jul 17, 2022 15:21:28 GMT -5
I understand what you are saying. I don't buy what Krishnamurti advocated. Perhaps, he could do it - watch thought till it stops.
The human consciousness is what it has become. The constant chattering. The "in time" state is what we are. I don't view it as something to be corrected. What needs correction is our perception of reality.
Let me ask you this. Does the Planet Earth exists? This is not trick question.
Yes, the Earth exists. Yes, the perceiver is the problem. We perceive what we are. But there is a something underneath the what we are, the basis. I always wanted to get to the next layer, underneath. Why do you believe that the view transmitted from the ISS is the Planet Earth you are on? Is it possible to perceive anything without the movement of thought? Thought that enables cognition through the retrieval of knowledge retained in the memory? |
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Death
Jul 17, 2022 15:34:16 GMT -5
Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 17, 2022 15:34:16 GMT -5
Yes, the Earth exists. Yes, the perceiver is the problem. We perceive what we are. But there is a something underneath the what we are, the basis. I always wanted to get to the next layer, underneath. Why do you believe that the view transmitted from the ISS is the Planet Earth you are on? Is it possible to perceive anything without the movement of thought? Thought that enables cognition through the retrieval of knowledge retained in the memory? There is a difference between abstract thinking and cognition, or brain processing. You can't perceive without cognition. An exceptionally interesting TED Talk and book by Jill Bolte Taylor. She was a neuroscientist, and experienced a stroke IRT. It's worth the time to watch, 20 minutes. It takes her only two minutes to get to her story. (She covers the difference between abstract thought in words/left brain, and not-that right brain). |
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Death
Jul 17, 2022 15:42:55 GMT -5
Post by sree on Jul 17, 2022 15:42:55 GMT -5
What's this? Cancel Buddhist culture? The Buddha would be turning in his grave. This video is typical American subversive propaganda. Is there no limits to our evil?
How would you justify this travesty?
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Death
Jul 17, 2022 16:15:21 GMT -5
Post by sree on Jul 17, 2022 16:15:21 GMT -5
Why do you believe that the view transmitted from the ISS is the Planet Earth you are on? Is it possible to perceive anything without the movement of thought? Thought that enables cognition through the retrieval of knowledge retained in the memory? There is a difference between abstract thinking and cognition, or brain processing. You can't perceive without cognition. An exceptionally interesting TED Talk and book by Jill Bolte Taylor. She was a neuroscientist, and experienced a stroke IRT. It's worth the time to watch, 20 minutes. It takes her only two minutes to get to her story. (She covers the difference between abstract thought in words/left brain, and not-that right brain). Isn't she clever, holding a real human brain like a high priestess to control her audience with a shocking prop. The Japanese did that in WW2 with human heads chopped off and planted on stakes to instill fear in the local populace of conquered territories. She is evil.
There is no proven connection between the human brain and consciousness. There is no proof for the theory of evolution either.
Spirituality and insanity don't go together.
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Death
Jul 17, 2022 17:00:30 GMT -5
Post by sree on Jul 17, 2022 17:00:30 GMT -5
Now, this is a good question coming from you.
(1)The resistance comes from nowhere. There are some well-known public figures who just don't want the meaningless fuss even for themselves. If my body dies, just burn it as biological waste in that place where my dog was sent after it was put down by the vet. I don't even mind if my body is put in a plastic bag and placed in the bin for next Tuesday's trash pick-up. My decision to not participate has nothing to do with my view of my own death even. I have not come to terms with it the way Krishnamurti had. I guess I am in the same boat as ouroboros who, in his Post No.859 Page 9, said:"Needless to say, death is the end of the psychological as well. And the absence felt by those left behind is of both in respect to their departed loved one. I'm aware of the Swiss Dignitas option. Although I couldn't imagine myself going that path."
Euthanasia makes sense when the body is no longer viable. (2) ....But if our consciousness can change and humanity, which is us, can function as a seamless, selfless whole, there would be no wars and everyone would contribute to an absolutely secure world to live in. Imagine one big human family.
I once saw a three-year-old child bawling in a crowded mega store, tears running down his face and frantically looking around for his mother. The sea of people around him didn't count because they were strangers. It was so sad. How can we live this way? (3)....So, if we could have a secure world of one selfless human family, how would we deal with terminating the life of the body? Would this option even arise? Are the diseases - such as diabetes, cardiovascular issues, cancers - we are suffering caused by the stress of living in a selfish world? We would all have healthy bodies that die naturally while asleep in old age. What do you think?
You don't know who/what they're coming from. Stay focused on your task. But honestly, I'm not really sure you know what that is. This is just a discussion, but what is your focus for having it? (1) Is that your final answer? Is it a sense of resignation or an answer you've questioned to the extreme and see it turtles all the way down? (not for you Tenka) You keep bringing up K like you want to know what he may be pointing to. Your onion. (2) EVERYTHING changes and humanity is an aspect of THIS seamless whole. Most are unconscious of the fascinating trick of light. As such, they operate at the level of their minds, pursue self-full agendas, have various insecurities, and some kill our sistas and brothas to achieve their goals and objectives. Perfectly so. (3) Such hopes are a distraction from what you can immediately see and inquire about. Stay focused. But sure, stress can be correlated with all sorts of psychosomatic illnesses and other outcomes. All the more reason to question and inquire into one's thoughts and beliefs. So, back to (1). Still feel resistance, resignation, or are you just a 'free Being' floating around in a prison of time/space prison? Your turn. What do you think? I am not into philosophizing about the human condition. Looking at life in reflective mode is non-productive. It is what old men do, guys waiting for the bus to take them to that other side where Jesus or Buddha is.
Humanity is me. This seamless whole is what I am. I think it is worthwhile talking to humanity that thinks it is a person living on Planet Earth. This illusion is great if life is just going fishing with the wife and it never turns nightmarish.
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Post by someNOTHING! on Jul 17, 2022 19:16:48 GMT -5
You don't know who/what they're coming from. Stay focused on your task. But honestly, I'm not really sure you know what that is. This is just a discussion, but what is your focus for having it? (1) Is that your final answer? Is it a sense of resignation or an answer you've questioned to the extreme and see it turtles all the way down? (not for you Tenka) You keep bringing up K like you want to know what he may be pointing to. Your onion. (2) EVERYTHING changes and humanity is an aspect of THIS seamless whole. Most are unconscious of the fascinating trick of light. As such, they operate at the level of their minds, pursue self-full agendas, have various insecurities, and some kill our sistas and brothas to achieve their goals and objectives. Perfectly so. (3) Such hopes are a distraction from what you can immediately see and inquire about. Stay focused. But sure, stress can be correlated with all sorts of psychosomatic illnesses and other outcomes. All the more reason to question and inquire into one's thoughts and beliefs. So, back to (1). Still feel resistance, resignation, or are you just a 'free Being' floating around in a prison of time/space prison? Your turn. What do you think? I am not into philosophizing about the human condition. Looking at life in reflective mode is non-productive. It is what old men do, guys waiting for the bus to take them to that other side where Jesus or Buddha is. Humanity is me. This seamless whole is what I am. I think it is worthwhile talking to humanity that thinks it is a person living on Planet Earth. This illusion is great if life is just going fishing with the wife and it never turns nightmarish.
Sure sounds like philosophizing, but I get some of the points being made. Yes, it is often the nightmare of suffering that brings the details into very conscious, existential challenge. As many discussions go here, we're looking at what the mind might be doing as an escape plan, instead of actually getting down to the nitty gritty. Apparently, such endeavors are not for everyone. So be it. |
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Death
Jul 17, 2022 19:42:36 GMT -5
Post by sree on Jul 17, 2022 19:42:36 GMT -5
I am not into philosophizing about the human condition. Looking at life in reflective mode is non-productive. It is what old men do, guys waiting for the bus to take them to that other side where Jesus or Buddha is. Humanity is me. This seamless whole is what I am. I think it is worthwhile talking to humanity that thinks it is a person living on Planet Earth. This illusion is great if life is just going fishing with the wife and it never turns nightmarish.
Sure sounds like philosophizing, but I get some of the points being made. Yes, it is often the nightmare of suffering that brings the details into very conscious, existential challenge. As many discussions go here, we're looking at what the mind might be doing as an escape plan, instead of actually getting down to the nitty gritty. Apparently, such endeavors are not for everyone. So be it. Humanity is philosophizing? You are really into being an individual person, are you not? Can't blame you for living that delusion when the wifey is there to reinforce your sense of presence as her husband. This is why I don't cultivate personal relationships.
Back in the days when I had a job, the conditioning was constant from the moment I walked into the building. Starting from security at the reception all the way up in the lift to my secretary at my office door: Good morning, sree, morning sree, hey sree, how was your weekend? sree, sree, sree, sree. Man, it was drummed in every goddam day.
When I got off that track and was floating on my boat on the way to Kota Kinabalu, the fish jumping about at the surface of the water didn't call my name.
A wife is a sentinel.
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Post by someNOTHING! on Jul 17, 2022 20:05:49 GMT -5
Sure sounds like philosophizing, but I get some of the points being made. Yes, it is often the nightmare of suffering that brings the details into very conscious, existential challenge. As many discussions go here, we're looking at what the mind might be doing as an escape plan, instead of actually getting down to the nitty gritty. Apparently, such endeavors are not for everyone. So be it. Humanity is philosophizing? You are really into being an individual person, are you not? Can't blame you for living that delusion when the wifey is there to reinforce your sense of presence as her husband. This is why I don't cultivate personal relationships. Back in the days when I had a job, the conditioning was constant from the moment I walked into the building. Starting from security at the reception all the way up in the lift to my secretary at my office door: Good morning, sree, morning sree, hey sree, how was your weekend? sree, sree, sree, sree. Man, it was drummed in every goddam day.
When I got off that track and was floating on my boat on the way to Kota Kinabalu, the fish jumping about at the surface of the water didn't call my name.
A wife is a sentinel.
Luckily, the wifey appeared afterwards, hehe. I've even told her that if she had met me years earlier, she would probably have walked right on by. The conditions you are setting for yourself may or may not be beneficial, dunno. It's your unfolding. I can't say I didn't try something similar in my trekking/traveling preferences, living in the mountains alone for months at a time, and keeping things extremely simple and/or task oriented. There was an intensity in the simplicity that I, later, immediately recognized in Thoreau or Whitman, among others. Glad you are seeing the conditioned mind for what it is. I've been through Kota Kinabalu a couple times, while hanging in various parts of Sabah. Borneo has some cool stuff to offer. Even had a sister-in-law who lived in Kuching for a while, which was great, though I tended toward the more rustic. Your description of what a wife is is much more myopic than my own running experientially aligned one. Yours will likely change over time. Life's a funny thing. |
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Death
Jul 17, 2022 22:28:55 GMT -5
Post by sree on Jul 17, 2022 22:28:55 GMT -5
Humanity is philosophizing? You are really into being an individual person, are you not? Can't blame you for living that delusion when the wifey is there to reinforce your sense of presence as her husband. This is why I don't cultivate personal relationships. Back in the days when I had a job, the conditioning was constant from the moment I walked into the building. Starting from security at the reception all the way up in the lift to my secretary at my office door: Good morning, sree, morning sree, hey sree, how was your weekend? sree, sree, sree, sree. Man, it was drummed in every goddam day.
When I got off that track and was floating on my boat on the way to Kota Kinabalu, the fish jumping about at the surface of the water didn't call my name.
A wife is a sentinel.
Luckily, the wifey appeared afterwards, hehe. I've even told her that if she had met me years earlier, she would probably have walked right on by. The conditions you are setting for yourself may or may not be beneficial, dunno. It's your unfolding. I can't say I didn't try something similar in my trekking/traveling preferences, living in the mountains alone for months at a time, and keeping things extremely simple and/or task oriented. There was an intensity in the simplicity that I, later, immediately recognized in Thoreau or Whitman, among others. Glad you are seeing the conditioned mind for what it is. I've been through Kota Kinabalu a couple times, while hanging in various parts of Sabah. Borneo has some cool stuff to offer. Even had a sister-in-law who lived in Kuching for a while, which was great, though I tended toward the more rustic. Your description of what a wife is is much more myopic than my own running experientially aligned one. Yours will likely change over time. Life's a funny thing. Your wife is your anchor to this shore: sanity. A few hours of crazy talk everyday with self-realized impersonal selves can land you on that other shore. I don't have a wife. I have to watch it. I usually log on in a safe place: in my garden where I have sane folks around me. The chipmunks and robins. The trees and flower plants. Even earthworms.
It's good to know that you are familiar with South East Asia. Apart from the Muslims in Indonesia, Philippines and Malaysia, the Buddhists there would not get the zen stuff that you guys are talking about here. Do you think they are stupid? |
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Death
Jul 17, 2022 23:39:03 GMT -5
Post by laughter on Jul 17, 2022 23:39:03 GMT -5
You don't need to share in their feelings of loss or grief to feel compassion for them, and neither is it insane to feel loss at the passing of someone close. As I've already explained, pain is inevitable, but suffering, isn't. The insanity is in the suffering. The 2 pm to 5pm "Celebration of Life" event has just started. I watched them leave the house next door with friends who had come to accompany them to the venue. Lots of hugs. Will he still say "hello" to me after this? Would you, if you were my neighbor?
Why do you make a distinction between pain and suffering?
Of course I'd still say hello. Pain is an inevitable part of being alive. It's just the body getting your attention, or what is felt, emotionally, at a loss or in empathy to the pain and suffering of others. Suffering is a secondary overlay on top of pain. On one hand, it appears to be a complex creation of an intricate web of physiological cause and effect. It's not always easy to tell where pain ends and suffering begins, and they both cause one another in a tangled hierarchy. But at the root, suffering is caused by a mistaken sense of identity as a separate volitional entity, alive and extant in your own right, situated within the world. Easy and simple to say, but it involves what you really are, which is the cosmic mystery. Suffering can be solved and ended during your lifetime, but only by grace. It's also even possible short of that grace to minimize your suffering, by simply witnessing for what it is, as it happens. This is called the simple sanity of human adulthood, and if approached correctly, can make you more prone to the accident of meeting grace. |
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Death
Jul 18, 2022 8:04:42 GMT -5
Post by ouroboros on Jul 18, 2022 8:04:42 GMT -5
Regarding your last question, I seem to be in the minority here, insofar as I don't really do 'what I am'. And I don't expect to be changing the world either, at least this time around. You might think that’s defeatist, but I consider myself a realist. I'm still working through some stuff.I'm not really drawn to JK, but wanted to mention that some of your discourse on the forum conjures a quandary I've seen raised, about personal versus collective enlightenment. One school promotes and focuses on the idea of personal liberation. Another posits there can be no true and lasting Peace while beings in the world continue to suffer, aka the role of the bodhisattva. Thus, the role is to delay the culmination of personal liberation (death and the end of rebirth) and try to improve the world at large. So another disconnect I suppose. Both positions raise myriad questions, but it's why I asked whether you consider some things would never change. I mean, if that were the case the role would pretty much be moot, right. Or at least perpetual. Society has a tough balance to strike between the desires of the individuated and the good of the collective. It's a tough gig, so it makes sense any improvement is slow. For me, society seems to have lurched from the pitfalls of religion to the pitfalls of secularism in recent times. Although there's still a lot of both. But perhaps in time it may settle between those by embracing the spiritual. I say, whether it knows it or not, science is already grappling with the prospect. Are you aware that we are a "movement of thought"? I am using Krishnamurti lingo here the way truckers converse in their jargon on the CB radio. I consider us a sub-culture regardless of this notion among folks here that we are at the cutting edge of human learning. "Enlightenment" is not fried chicken, something any human being can bite into and universally share the experience. Do you follow? If it cannot be universally comprehensible or shared, like air or water, then it is special interest bs.
I'm not sure what's discussed here is only about thought. But more importantly, I guess for any real change to come about in the world at large, something would have to change both the hearts and minds of men. I'd be interested to hear more about what you do think it might entail. Perhaps that's what you're working on, because as I say, I'm still not clear on where you're coming from with all that. But it's a good post, and sure, I should endeavour to come without prejudice, to the best of my ability. |
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The insanity is in the suffering. 
