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Death
Jul 16, 2022 20:12:19 GMT -5
Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 16, 2022 20:12:19 GMT -5
That's because" Ecclesiastes 1:9 What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun. Ecclesiastes reflects an attitude. Do you see yourself as a blip in the evolution of the universe, a grain of sand on the beach? How you ended up where you are is not different from a stain left on the seat of someone's pants?
Come on, satch. You don't really believe that Old Testament mind-shaping propaganda, do you? Granted, there is not much you can do about the human situation where you are at. Neither can the earthworms change their status quo in my garden. But there is a vitality to life in the here and now that cannot be denied.
What are you drinking there? Singha or Chang? Do you know that I went to school in Scotland? Strathclyde, Glasgow. I worked in a bar on Saturday nights sloshing bitters and half bitters all night long. The British pub. Do you miss it?
Solomon was a wise dude, probably the wisest guy in the Bible excepting Jesus. Ecclesiastes is a wise book, taken as a whole. Early on Solomon was given a choice, wisdom or riches. Solomon chose wisdom. God said, OK, wise choice, so I'll give you riches as well. I pondered on these things long and hard. How can a man just be given wisdom? Then I realized God had sort of tricked Solomon. You want wisdom? I'll show you the s**t you have to go through to acquire wisdom, that's what Ecclesiastes is about. That's what the life of Solomon was about. He only achieved real wisdom in the end. On the whole, the Bible was written by some wise dudes. It's story telling. There is wisdom in stories, in the telling of stories. Where Western Christianity gets into trouble is believing the stories are actual history. There is an undercurrent of truth behind the stories. |
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Death
Jul 16, 2022 20:31:58 GMT -5
Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 16, 2022 20:31:58 GMT -5
There is no "us", andrew. Human consciousness is all there is. Let me back up on this statement. I hate to come on like a weirdo when I get into spiritual speak. Conventional language is all I have. I need to watch it. We live in the "in time' state because our consciousness responds to the need to live the way we do: get up in the morning to the alarm clock buzzing, get into the freeway before rush hour, and slip into your parking bay at the office at least an hour before the losers come in. Once you get into the office it is non-stop activity till it is way past 5 pm. If you are not getting a kick out of your job, it won't be long before you get kicked out of it. If you like the pace, then you are fine and it invigorates you. Most people can't hack it. The stress is debilitating. Not just from the job but fear of losing that stinking job. At home, the anxiety eats into you every time you look at the wife, the kids, the money you need to earn to make payments on that twenty-year mortgage and keep the roof over their heads and food on the table. It won't be long before you start popping pills to keep those co-morbidities at bay.
The 'no time' state never happens in a conventional life situation described above. Perhaps, on vacation, for a brief moment if ever. It usually never changes us. If it does, it could be somewhat like that for a fella I met in Port Dickson, Malaysia. He was a yachtie who just sailed in with Heller, his German partmer when I was at the Admiral Cove marina resort. Bob was a dentist with a practice in Colorado. He told me that he took up sailing after his friend invited him to join him on a two-week sailing trip. After those two weeks, he couldn't recover from his 'no time' state at sea. When he got back to his office, his mail was all piled up on his desk and he felt that he just couldn't go back to his old life as a dentist. He sold his practice, bought a boat, and went sailing all over the world after that. The last time I got news of Bob was on the internet. A sailing club reported that Bob and Heller were accosted by pirates in the Caribbean. Heller said Bob was pistol-whipped. She thought the pirates were going to kill him. Sorry for rambling. I was in the 'no time' state. 
no probs, it's easy for me to relate to the story, I have lived an unconventional life for many years. Me and my wife joke with people that we are terrible at 'adulting'! So maybe being in the 'no time' state can change our values and priorities? It can change what matters within human consciousness? Is that a reasonable explanation? A great film, loved it. Then Came Bronson. Bronson's best friend commits suicide, leaves James his motorcycle. |
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Death
Jul 16, 2022 21:53:15 GMT -5
Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 16, 2022 21:53:15 GMT -5
Okay. Yes. (I agree those scientists are unlikely to listen to weirdos like me (and you and others here). Do you think one can experience some of 'in time' state, and some of the 'no time' state simultaneously?
I like the way you talk, sort of reminds me just a little bit of Hercule Poirot  That's a good thing. Simultaneously? I understand where you are coming from. It is either or. It can never be simultaneous; and yet, both states are natural experiences of life. What is not natural is being locked 24/7 in the 'in time' state. It is stressful. This is why there is so much mental illness, psychosomatic diseases, social violence, mass shootings, wars. This is my theory.
‘In time’ state is our 'normal state' of awareness which is time-bound. No weirdos here.
‘No time’ state is where the weirdos are. You and I and ouroboros qualify as weirdos because we can grasp the idea of ‘no time’, and entertain the possibility of this state of consciousness even though we are not in that state. Do you follow? This is why we can engage in conversation on this topic either out of curiosity or, in my case, have the conviction that ‘no time’ is an attainable, natural, phenomenal condition of harmony. It is a state of resonance when consciousness is at the natural frequency of nature. Conviction, mind you, is not accepted belief without verifiable proof. This means that I have a strong hunch, the kind prospectors have when they are looking for gold, the mother lode; scientists on the verge of making breakthroughs; or market speculators going all in on a bet of a lifetime the way Soros shorted the British pound. If my conviction bears fruit, then the ‘no time’ state can be brought on and experienced by anyone in the real world.
Accepting the belief in a ‘no time’ state as a matter of fact, regardless of the condition of the world, is where the other weirdos are. Their ‘no time’ state is essentially a personal belief, a psychological condition. I don’t want to go there. I replied to a post earlier today, it seems to be relevant here. Time and timelessness. spiritualteachers.proboards.com/thread/5864/stamping-world-gopal?q=weeds |
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Death
Jul 16, 2022 22:31:10 GMT -5
Post by sree on Jul 16, 2022 22:31:10 GMT -5
Simultaneously? I understand where you are coming from. It is either or. It can never be simultaneous; and yet, both states are natural experiences of life. What is not natural is being locked 24/7 in the 'in time' state. It is stressful. This is why there is so much mental illness, psychosomatic diseases, social violence, mass shootings, wars. This is my theory.
‘In time’ state is our 'normal state' of awareness which is time-bound. No weirdos here.
‘No time’ state is where the weirdos are. You and I and ouroboros qualify as weirdos because we can grasp the idea of ‘no time’, and entertain the possibility of this state of consciousness even though we are not in that state. Do you follow? This is why we can engage in conversation on this topic either out of curiosity or, in my case, have the conviction that ‘no time’ is an attainable, natural, phenomenal condition of harmony. It is a state of resonance when consciousness is at the natural frequency of nature. Conviction, mind you, is not accepted belief without verifiable proof. This means that I have a strong hunch, the kind prospectors have when they are looking for gold, the mother lode; scientists on the verge of making breakthroughs; or market speculators going all in on a bet of a lifetime the way Soros shorted the British pound. If my conviction bears fruit, then the ‘no time’ state can be brought on and experienced by anyone in the real world.
Accepting the belief in a ‘no time’ state as a matter of fact, regardless of the condition of the world, is where the other weirdos are. Their ‘no time’ state is essentially a personal belief, a psychological condition. I don’t want to go there. I replied to a post earlier today, it seems to be relevant here. Time and timelessness. spiritualteachers.proboards.com/thread/5864/stamping-world-gopal?q=weedsI do like your post in that link above. You are not stupid to be able to make all those distinctions between 'in time' and 'out of time'.
Can you play the piano? If you can, you will be able to experience conscious learning how to play notes on the musical score and doing it (i.e. running your fingers all over the keyboard) without conscious effort.
"In time' and 'no time' are states of consciousness that are unconnected to the ability to act without conscious deliberate effort. I do a lot of things in 'auto mode' mindlessly and use the timer to alert me so as to avoid burning the food I cook on the stove or in the oven.
Am I making fair comment? If not, please tell me why not.
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Death
Jul 17, 2022 7:40:20 GMT -5
Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 17, 2022 7:40:20 GMT -5
I do like your post in that link above. You are not stupid to be able to make all those distinctions between 'in time' and 'out of time'.
Can you play the piano? If you can, you will be able to experience conscious learning how to play notes on the musical score and doing it (i.e. running your fingers all over the keyboard) without conscious effort.
"In time' and 'no time' are states of consciousness that are unconnected to the ability to act without conscious deliberate effort. I do a lot of things in 'auto mode' mindlessly and use the timer to alert me so as to avoid burning the food I cook on the stove or in the oven.
Am I making fair comment? If not, please tell me why not.
For me, the bold is not correct. For me, it does take a conscious (deliberate) effort to enter the state of 'no time'. Everything else correct. Why? For me the 'no time' state doesn't just happen (is never automatic). IOW, 'no time' is connected to the ability to act with conscious deliberate effort. |
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Death
Jul 17, 2022 9:53:12 GMT -5
Post by sree on Jul 17, 2022 9:53:12 GMT -5
I do like your post in that link above. You are not stupid to be able to make all those distinctions between 'in time' and 'out of time'.
Can you play the piano? If you can, you will be able to experience conscious learning how to play notes on the musical score and doing it (i.e. running your fingers all over the keyboard) without conscious effort.
"In time' and 'no time' are states of consciousness that are unconnected to the ability to act without conscious deliberate effort. I do a lot of things in 'auto mode' mindlessly and use the timer to alert me so as to avoid burning the food I cook on the stove or in the oven.
Am I making fair comment? If not, please tell me why not.
For me, the bold is not correct. For me, it does take a conscious (deliberate) effort to enter the state of 'no time'. Everything else correct. Why? For me the 'no time' state doesn't just happen (is never automatic). IOW, 'no time' is connected to the ability to act with conscious deliberate effort. Ok, I won't argue with you; after all, I can't vouch for 'no time' authenticity because I can't go into that state of consciousness at will in the manner you can. I am not being facetious but what is the practical value of such a state? In that 'no time' state can you still function with the skill of a surgeon in an emergency room working against the clock in cooperation with his team performing open-heart surgery? |
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Death
Jul 17, 2022 10:26:36 GMT -5
Post by sree on Jul 17, 2022 10:26:36 GMT -5
Are you aware that we are a "movement of thought"? I am using Krishnamurti lingo here the way truckers converse in their jargon on the CB radio. I consider us a sub-culture regardless of this notion among folks here that we are at the cutting edge of human learning. "Enlightenment" is not fried chicken, something any human being can bite into and universally share the experience. Do you follow? If it cannot be universally comprehensible or shared, like air or water, then it is special interest bs.
I am not a Krishnamurti aficionado. Bohm was not a spiritualist. He was a physicist. I share Bohm's fascination with Krishnamurti. We can learn even from a leaf, he said. I agree. Krishnamurti's association with Theosophy doesn't deter me from examining his call for inquiry. I am here among you guys but I am not one of you. I hope you will discuss with me without prejudice.
Changing the world is not what we think it entails. As I said, we are nothing more than a movement of thought.
is just not so. Well, in order to argue rationally, we must define what I mean by "we are nothing more than a movement of thought", mustn't we?
"Movement of thought" is a Krishnamurti phrase. My use of his expression may not coincide with his but the old man is not here to correct me. But you are correcting me.
You guys debate endlessly on this and that and never seem to come to agreement. The reason is because you are all acting like chimps. Consider me a chimp, and you are another chimp. The only way you and I can carry a log and place it across the stream is for both of us to see the log for what it is, see the stream for what it is, and share the same intent.
I said that "we" (X) are "a movement of thought" (Y). This is to say, X=Y.
And you say: "This is just not so." X is not equal to Y.
Can you prove it? To work out the sum, you must, firstly, define X and Y.
Is this hard? Even Bohm couldn't work out the sum. Let's see you do it.
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Death
Jul 17, 2022 10:29:19 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 17, 2022 10:29:19 GMT -5
For me, the bold is not correct. For me, it does take a conscious (deliberate) effort to enter the state of 'no time'. Everything else correct. Why? For me the 'no time' state doesn't just happen (is never automatic). IOW, 'no time' is connected to the ability to act with conscious deliberate effort. Ok, I won't argue with you; after all, I can't vouch for 'no time' authenticity because I can't go into that state of consciousness at will in the manner you can. I am not being facetious but what is the practical value of such a state? In that 'no time' state can you still function with the skill of a surgeon in an emergency room working against the clock in cooperation with his team performing open-heart surgery? Sure. You would actually be more efficient. |
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Death
Jul 17, 2022 10:33:51 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 17, 2022 10:33:51 GMT -5
Well, in order to argue rationally, we must define what I mean by "we are nothing more than a movement of thought", mustn't we?
"Movement of thought" is a Krishnamurti phrase. My use of his expression may not coincide with his but the old man is not here to correct me. But you are correcting me.
You guys debate endlessly on this and that and never seem to come to agreement. The reason is because you are all acting like chimps. Consider me a chimp, and you are another chimp. The only way you and I can carry a log and place it across the stream is for both of us to see the log for what it is, see the stream for what it is, and share the same intent.
I said that "we" (X) are "a movement of thought" (Y). This is to say, X=Y. And you say: "This is just not so." X is not equal to Y. Can you prove it? To work out the sum, you must, firstly, define X and Y.
Is this hard? Even Bohm couldn't work out the sum. Let's see you do it.
You said nothing more than. That's the part I disagree with. Bohm understood very well, this is what his Implicate Order is about. |
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Death
Jul 17, 2022 11:23:41 GMT -5
Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 17, 2022 11:23:41 GMT -5
For me, the bold is not correct. For me, it does take a conscious (deliberate) effort to enter the state of 'no time'. Everything else correct. Why? For me the 'no time' state doesn't just happen (is never automatic). IOW, 'no time' is connected to the ability to act with conscious deliberate effort. Ok, I won't argue with you; after all, I can't vouch for 'no time' authenticity because I can't go into that state of consciousness at will in the manner you can. I am not being facetious but what is the practical value of such a state? In that 'no time' state can you still function with the skill of a surgeon in an emergency room working against the clock in cooperation with his team performing open-heart surgery? You want to experience 'no time', complete present moment awareness? Climb El Capitan, Free Solo, without a rope. Alex Honnold planned this for years. He climbed many times, with ropes, he mapped out every square inch of his route beforehand. But to actually do, 100% focus necessary, one tiny error, you die. |
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Death
Jul 17, 2022 12:08:03 GMT -5
Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 17, 2022 12:08:03 GMT -5
I do like your post in that link above. You are not stupid to be able to make all those distinctions between 'in time' and 'out of time'.
I was going to add some yesterday to the linked. Will do so here. Einstein came to Relativity by imagining what it would be like to ride upon a beam of light. He came to understand that for a photon of light, time does not exist. Now, looking from the outside, we know that a photon does travel in time, it travels at the speed of light. We can follow (understand) a photon from when it leaves the Sun to its arrival on Earth. It takes 8 and 1/2 minutes. But the photon itself, does not experience time. From when it left the Sun, to Earth, zero time. So how time is experienced depends upon, as we say here, the context. This, is Relativity. [Also, an odd thing about time and space, one can be converted into the other. The speed of light is the constant]. This is an exact parallel to the description in the post. IOW, there is movement in time, and simultaneously, timelessness. IOW, perfect synchrony with the movement-in-time, is the timeless now. And this is what flow is. |
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Death
Jul 17, 2022 13:03:52 GMT -5
Post by sree on Jul 17, 2022 13:03:52 GMT -5
Ok, I won't argue with you; after all, I can't vouch for 'no time' authenticity because I can't go into that state of consciousness at will in the manner you can. I am not being facetious but what is the practical value of such a state? In that 'no time' state can you still function with the skill of a surgeon in an emergency room working against the clock in cooperation with his team performing open-heart surgery? Sure. You would actually be more efficient. How? Can you offer some clues? It wasn't possible to get into Krishnamurti's head. Can you do better?
I don't think you are being serious here. This is not helpful.
The surgical team comprise you, the surgeon in "no time" mode working with the anesthesiologist, nurses, surgical tech, physician assistant, medical device rep., all of whom are in the "in time" mode.
Can you tell me how you would orientate your bodily movements in the 'no time' state of yours? The medical devices are all monitoring your patient's vital signs. They are machines working in sync with the rest of your team in the "in time' mode.
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Death
Jul 17, 2022 13:30:49 GMT -5
Post by sree on Jul 17, 2022 13:30:49 GMT -5
Ok, I won't argue with you; after all, I can't vouch for 'no time' authenticity because I can't go into that state of consciousness at will in the manner you can. I am not being facetious but what is the practical value of such a state? In that 'no time' state can you still function with the skill of a surgeon in an emergency room working against the clock in cooperation with his team performing open-heart surgery? You want to experience 'no time', complete present moment awareness? Climb El Capitan, Free Solo, without a rope. Alex Honnold planned this for years. He climbed many times, with ropes, he mapped out every square inch of his route beforehand. But to actually do, 100% focus necessary, one tiny error, you die. My friend, I think you and I are not on the same page in this conversation.
If 'no time' is what this climber in your video is in, then I have no quarrel with you with regard to this state of consciousness. People living in such a state are few and far between. They are having fun doing fun things.
It would be great if we all can go do what we enjoy doing. The guys driving the trash trucks or killing cattle, pigs, and fowl at the slaughter houses day in and day out for a living can't go into the 'no time' mode can they?
You are looking at one side of reality while I am looking at the other. To you, the Buddha is about Nirvana. To me, the Buddha is about human bondage.
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Death
Jul 17, 2022 13:45:49 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 17, 2022 13:45:49 GMT -5
Sure. You would actually be more efficient. How? Can you offer some clues? It wasn't possible to get into Krishnamurti's head. Can you do better?
I don't think you are being serious here. This is not helpful. The surgical team comprise you, the surgeon in "no time" mode working with the anesthesiologist, nurses, surgical tech, physician assistant, medical device rep., all of whom are in the "in time" mode.
Can you tell me how you would orientate your bodily movements in the 'no time' state of yours? The medical devices are all monitoring your patient's vital signs. They are machines working in sync with the rest of your team in the "in time' mode.
I am serious. You are jumping to other conclusions other than what I wrote. Maybe especially read the linked post again. Has your mind ever ceased this continuous 'monkey-mind' chain of thoughts? Just sit. There will be sounds. You don't hear the surrounding sounds, unless you attend to them. Or just observe something in your environment, one thing, just focus. Again, any thought is from a previous recorded event. It could be five seconds or 5 years. So if the mind is thinking (thoughts), you are not in the present moment. If you are thinking, you are necessarily in the past, or future. So, just focus, on something. When thoughts cease, there is more-of-a-chance you are in the present moment. If so when so, you are synchronized with passing events (not behind because of thinking-memory, or ahead through imagination). This simultaneously, is timelessness. Go back and read the posts. The new-doctor-intern, has to practice, literally, under an experienced doctor. Because he has merely passed all the tests. The intern does not have all his knowledge, in immediacy-readiness. His knowledge is in s-l-o-w memory. With practice, doctor has his surgery skills in present-moment-immediacy. Just try. Today, you could have 3 seconds of a silent mind. |
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Death
Jul 17, 2022 13:49:46 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 17, 2022 13:49:46 GMT -5
You want to experience 'no time', complete present moment awareness? Climb El Capitan, Free Solo, without a rope. Alex Honnold planned this for years. He climbed many times, with ropes, he mapped out every square inch of his route beforehand. But to actually do, 100% focus necessary, one tiny error, you die. My friend, I think you and I are not on the same page in this conversation.
If 'no time' is what this climber in your video is in, then I have no quarrel with you with regard to this state of consciousness. People living in such a state are few and far between. They are having fun doing fun things.
It would be great if we all can go do what we enjoy doing. The guys driving the trash trucks or killing cattle, pigs, and fowl at the slaughter houses day in and day out for a living can't go into the 'no time' mode can they?
You are looking at one side of reality while I am looking at the other. To you, the Buddha is about Nirvana. To me, the Buddha is about human bondage.
Read my last post (just now). Yes, anyone can go into silent mode, anyone can go into timelessness, in the present moment. But it is not so easy to do. Attention, attention, attention. Ikkyu tricycle.org/magazine/attention-means-attention/Charlotte Joko Beck, the "best" American modern Zen teacher. |
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That's a good thing.