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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2022 0:45:28 GMT -5
satch said he would avoid me if he saw me in Thailand. I doubt that. Of course not. From what you have written here I would have no hesitation in pulling up a bar stool and drinking some very cold beers with you and chewing the cud. I would have quickly steered you away from any thoughts about Krishnamurti who has done you no good. No, when I wrote that I was just thinking about the funny conversations I've often had with other expats about which farangs we would avoid if we saw them in a bar. You know what I mean. 😉 |
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Post by andrew on Jul 13, 2022 5:32:52 GMT -5
Keeping your appointments and hanging out anywhere in the world is fine, but there's a dynamic at play that has created a sense of being "trapped" in a time/space paradigm that you must somehow escape, when throughout the day, you're very often not even in it. You're trying to escape the belief prison with the minds same erratic, often unconscious misconceptions that have created the prison. Time/space could be the playground, but that's not what you're seeing, is it? The Shawshank escape alluded to not denying the walls, not going under/around, but through... and these bars are the one you're imagining. It's a weird thing, to be sure. I am always in it. Every waking moment, I am trapped in a space/time reality. I need to send my car in next Friday. Elio is dead. Fred has taken over. After Fred has serviced the car, it has to get to the detailing center for wash and polish. There is always something coming up and has to be attended to. Then there is my neighbor's damn "Celibration of Life" event on Sunday, July 17. I won't go and will have to brave the evil eye from him.
Don't you have bills to pay, jury duty appointments to keep, etc. Do you live in an assisted living senior facility or what?
How about 'in it, but not of it?' (Jesus quote I think). |
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Post by someNOTHING! on Jul 13, 2022 7:13:59 GMT -5
I am always in it. Every waking moment, I am trapped in a space/time reality. I need to send my car in next Friday. Elio is dead. Fred has taken over. After Fred has serviced the car, it has to get to the detailing center for wash and polish. There is always something coming up and has to be attended to. Then there is my neighbor's damn "Celibration of Life" event on Sunday, July 17. I won't go and will have to brave the evil eye from him.
Don't you have bills to pay, jury duty appointments to keep, etc. Do you live in an assisted living senior facility or what?
How about 'in it, but not of it?' (Jesus quote I think). Nice, exactamente. So, what we have here is a situation where we can look at the 'rabiduck' (for Sree, that is the combo Wholeness of the rabbit-duck picture of paradox) of Existence, as it is. One of them symbolizes PURE Awareness, as we try to express it here on the forum (though it's just a word people call THIS), while the other symbolizes 'appearances' in that Awareness. (digress for a moment) For some, looking at the appearance of Jesus or, in Sree's case here, Krishnamurti, they see someone they obviously respect and want to be like. They assume s/he has transcended something, some state, etc they want to transcend. Perhaps it is time/space; or maybe it's the guilt-ridden level of a sinner so they can go to heaven (even though JC talked about heaven on earth and such). Perhaps, when it all comes crashing down, and with a little calrity, it can be seen that JC and K were more or less talking about the same thing, though in different cultural frameworks and linguistic devices (for the sake of meaning). (back to the point Existential Rabiduck, with digression included) So, many will look at JC/K and assume those appearances are "in it, but not necessarily of it." Whereas, what their teaching may ultimately be pointing to is whatever synonym for Being or Unbounded Awareness-Consciousness you want to use. To have realized what that word is ACTUALLY referring to is to understand that appearances could be considered "of IT, but not necessarily Realized IT- just aspects within". This very set of words is yet another device used for the sake of meaning, but can't express what SELF-Realization or TRUTH-Realization is actually "of". So, in essence, the search = the looking for what IT is that is actually looking (yes, this 'looking for' is distinctly different than simply 'looking'---- a rabiduck of sense in A-C). And IT is FREE (of name, of obscurity, of confusion, of... the appearance that might be searching). No appearance of words or thought, acceptance of belief, no theory, no practice, or whatever can 'give/cause' someNOTHING that Realization, though via memory one might fall back into the obscurity of the a$$umption. (Sawwy, I have to use $, because the algo changes the word's appearance). So, as the old theoretical story goes:1st mountain = solely the world of conditioned appearances, which includes the only the personal conditioned perspective and the imprisoned self searching for SELF 2nd mountain = Realization of the negation of the boundaries that once kept that appearance neatly cut off from the Wholeness/Oneness that simply is A-C (not the dualistic confusion that is mind cut off from the rest of existence, because it has believed it since 'time immemorial'--- for you Sree) 3rd mountain = just THIS, Pure Unbounded/Formless A-C with appearances in ITS various forms, including discussions on a forum about such concepts. (Just more linguistic devices being used) Wisdom of Love Love of Wisdom Intelligence |
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Death
Jul 13, 2022 7:33:38 GMT -5
Post by someNOTHING! on Jul 13, 2022 7:33:38 GMT -5
Keeping your appointments and hanging out anywhere in the world is fine, but there's a dynamic at play that has created a sense of being "trapped" in a time/space paradigm that you must somehow escape, when throughout the day, you're very often not even in it. You're trying to escape the belief prison with the minds same erratic, often unconscious misconceptions that have created the prison. Time/space could be the playground, but that's not what you're seeing, is it? The Shawshank escape alluded to not denying the walls, not going under/around, but through... and these bars are the one you're imagining. It's a weird thing, to be sure. I am always in it. Every waking moment, I am trapped in a space/time reality. I need to send my car in next Friday. Elio is dead. Fred has taken over. After Fred has serviced the car, it has to get to the detailing center for wash and polish. There is always something coming up and has to be attended to. Then there is my neighbor's damn "Celibration of Life" event on Sunday, July 17. I won't go and will have to brave the evil eye from him.
Don't you have bills to pay, jury duty appointments to keep, etc. Do you live in an assisted living senior facility or what?
Based on what you're saying here, the layers of your onion are the master. If you approach convos here with a little less resistance, learn to see your onion in action more clearly, then more clarity might emerge. Until then, this convo will go round and round in circles, sometimes spiraling. |
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Death
Jul 13, 2022 8:36:00 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by zazeniac on Jul 13, 2022 8:36:00 GMT -5
Why is it difficult to offer your condolences? You sound so familiar.
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Death
Jul 13, 2022 9:37:20 GMT -5
Post by sree on Jul 13, 2022 9:37:20 GMT -5
satch said he would avoid me if he saw me in Thailand. I doubt that. Of course not. From what you have written here I would have no hesitation in pulling up a bar stool and drinking some very cold beers with you and chewing the cud. I would have quickly steered you away from any thoughts about Krishnamurti who has done you no good. No, when I wrote that I was just thinking about the funny conversations I've often had with other expats about which farangs we would avoid if we saw them in a bar. You know what I mean. 😉 I think I do but I could be wrong. You have been there for 25 years, I was just passing through. Bangkok is not Buddhism. It is Maya. And those bars sprouted out all over Bangkok for US soldiers on Rest & Recreation from the Vietnam War. After that, the farangs moved in from the UK and Europe. There is pretty weird stuff there now. Back in those days when yanks were in those bars, it was straight-up man/woman stuff that even Jesus would not send them to Hell for. The kind of farangs I think you are referring to is bad news. Germans, I was told. Kinky guys.
Don't tell me you were drawn to Thailand 25 years ago to build a career in real estate. Maya was calling, right? Don't get me wrong. I am a man and we are hardwired to be fruitful and multiply. This is how the Devil gets us. Imagine Jesus going through Maya Maya for forty nights in the desert.
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Death
Jul 13, 2022 11:04:02 GMT -5
Post by sree on Jul 13, 2022 11:04:02 GMT -5
We are talking animals, someone said. And when we have no one to talk to, we talk to ourselves. Talk is driven by thought…thought, thought, thought, thought. Alan Watts said that this is a sign of madness. The kind of talk we indulged in here at Spiritual Forum cannot be done with non-spiritual types. To them, we are weirdos. It’s crazy talk. The kind Charles Manson could dive straight in and give us all a run for our money. Does that bother you?
I have no interest in death as a biological phenomenon. Frankly, the Swiss are quite rational about death. They accept euthanasia, which is the right to decommission the body when it is no longer viable as an organism. We decommission Boeing jetliners as a matter of course and don’t fly them till they break up while you are having your whiskey at 30,000 feet. Therefore, shutting down the body in a timely fashion is the smart thing to do. Martha lived ten years after being diagnosed for Stage 4 lung cancer. If she was a Boeing jet, that’s it. No more flights.
Martha was kept alive for nine years by offering herself as a guinea pig for ground-breaking cancer research clinical trials. Why should we even treat cancer when we don’t give a damn for people infested with parasitic worms and dying from famines? Do you see the disconnect? Martha was attended to by a team of dedicated leading oncologists in America. The Gopals in India are a different kettle of fish. Then I shall consider it a boon that my propensity to want to talk, both on and offline is actually quite limited. It doesn't bother me too much that people might think we are weirdos. Other than the usual social, and perhaps biological conditioning- to be accepted as part of the group. But being conscious of it tends to mitigate that somewhat. I'm a bit of a loner anyway, and truth be told I don't have a particularly high opinion of folks generally. So no, I don't bother too much what other people think of me. And I learnt a long time ago that talking about spirituality to those who's radar it isn't already on, tends to result in either incredulity or alarm. So I haven't bothered with that for a long time, and appreciate the value of a venue such as this. What I said before wasn't strictly limited to the biological. Needless to say, death is the end of the psychological as well. And the absence felt by those left behind is of both in respect to their departed loved one. I'm aware of the Swiss Dignitas option. Although I couldn't imagine myself going that path. I do see the disconnect. I could say that when it comes to healthcare money talks, and that it's a consequence of a consumer based society. Along with the 'out of sight out of mind' disposition you alluded to before. That ideally there'd be a better balance between prolonging life at all cost for the advantaged, and ignoring the plight of the disadvantaged entirely. I could say that ultimately the disconnect can be envisaged as coming about as a result of ignorance [of spiritual matters]. Basically shortsightedness and skewed values. Idk, maybe the world moves at its own pace, with any improvement coming in fits and starts. Perhaps as the result of strife, or as great teachers pass through. But incrementally. Or perhaps it's that some things will never change. What do you think?I think you are one smart guy. This is not a compliment but can be a statement of fact. My fact. I have been mulling over what you said above. I agree with your views on all points except believing that things will never change. Things never changed for Krishnamurti despite his life-long urging for change in human consciousness, that's for sure. Our geopolitical situation seems to be worsening. Americans are getting crazy. At the fundamental level, as a human being, there is no escape. Personally, I have been plotting for a way out. If Rome burns, I need to be in Sicily. Do you know what I mean?
We plot all the time to escape suffering. And this is why our consciousness has become our prison. "Can suffering end?" asked Krishnamurti. End it, he says. But there is no how, no way to do it, no method, no path, and - worse of all - no time to do it. The ending of suffering has to come about instantly! Death is the key, he said. Die to the self, the "me", die to everything that thought has put together.
Look, are you on board with this? I can't do this alone. I need brain power. But - as Krishnamurti said - we are all fragmented. Each of us who had listened to his teaching has become a light to himself. Like fireflies lighting up my garden, the enlightened ones fly their own separate ways. Unless we work together, we will not generate the power to break the karma.
In a TED talk I watched the other day, the speaker pointed out that no one has ever seen two chimps carrying a log to build a bridge across a stream. Chimps don't seem to have the idea of cooperative effort. We are no better than a bunch of monkeys when it comes to liberating ourselves from suffering.
What do you think? Are you really a smart guy or just a clever chimp?
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Deleted
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Death
Jul 13, 2022 11:31:45 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2022 11:31:45 GMT -5
Of course not. From what you have written here I would have no hesitation in pulling up a bar stool and drinking some very cold beers with you and chewing the cud. I would have quickly steered you away from any thoughts about Krishnamurti who has done you no good. No, when I wrote that I was just thinking about the funny conversations I've often had with other expats about which farangs we would avoid if we saw them in a bar. You know what I mean. 😉 I think I do but I could be wrong. You have been there for 25 years, I was just passing through. Bangkok is not Buddhism. It is Maya. And those bars sprouted out all over Bangkok for US soldiers on Rest & Recreation from the Vietnam War. After that, the farangs moved in from the UK and Europe. There is pretty weird stuff there now. Back in those days when yanks were in those bars, it was straight-up man/woman stuff that even Jesus would not send them to Hell for. The kind of farangs I think you are referring to is bad news. Germans, I was told. Kinky guys.
Don't tell me you were drawn to Thailand 25 years ago to build a career in real estate. Maya was calling, right? Don't get me wrong. I am a man and we are hardwired to be fruitful and multiply. This is how the Devil gets us. Imagine Jesus going through Maya Maya for forty nights in the desert. I can't say I blame you for assuming I visited Thailand as a stereotypical sexpat tourist, but I went there for business reasons to help out some old University pals who started a travel agency and decided to stay. I've had an affinity for Asia since I spent most of my childhood in Singapore and Hong Kong. |
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Post by sree on Jul 13, 2022 11:51:56 GMT -5
Why is it difficult to offer your condolences? You sound so familiar. Just now, as I am figuring out how to reply to you, I saw Martha's daughter sitting alone on her back porch. She is a very pretty young woman in her mid-thirties. She has a beautiful voice. So, had her mother, Martha. The two of them would break into a duet every so often, and their singing could be heard from where I am right now in my back garden writing to you people. Those were the days when Martha would light up even my life. She was a wonderful person, always cheerful, with so much to say to me about her writing. Yes, she was an aspiring writer of novels and we would discuss excitedly how to create a "hook" early in the storyline to keep the reader engaged in the plot. Ok, is this good enough as a tribute to Martha? I could even share it with everyone as an eulogy delivered by me, with tears running down my eyes, from the podium at their "Celebration of Life" event next Sunday. Right? But I won't.
People are such suckers for a life of pain and suffering. Even you and abscissa, who are supposed to be spiritually enlightened, feel that I should participate in an affair of the ignorant.
It is not easy for me living in this world among people who are conditioned as psychological beings. They see me as one of them. Their way of life of celebrating births and mourning deaths include fighting wars. There are nuclear missile silos all over the damn country; in them are deadly weapons all armed and ready for launch against Russia, China and God knows who else. Are you listening, zazeniac?
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Death
Jul 13, 2022 12:18:40 GMT -5
Post by sree on Jul 13, 2022 12:18:40 GMT -5
I think I do but I could be wrong. You have been there for 25 years, I was just passing through. Bangkok is not Buddhism. It is Maya. And those bars sprouted out all over Bangkok for US soldiers on Rest & Recreation from the Vietnam War. After that, the farangs moved in from the UK and Europe. There is pretty weird stuff there now. Back in those days when yanks were in those bars, it was straight-up man/woman stuff that even Jesus would not send them to Hell for. The kind of farangs I think you are referring to is bad news. Germans, I was told. Kinky guys.
Don't tell me you were drawn to Thailand 25 years ago to build a career in real estate. Maya was calling, right? Don't get me wrong. I am a man and we are hardwired to be fruitful and multiply. This is how the Devil gets us. Imagine Jesus going through Maya Maya for forty nights in the desert. but I went there for business reasons to help out some old University pals who started a travel agency and decided to stay. I've had an affinity for Asia since I spent most of my childhood in Singapore and Hong Kong. Whoa, I didn't say you were drawn to Thailand by the sugar babies. Thailand is a wonderful place. It has the kind of magic that appeals to the sensitive white man. Bangkok is not Thailand. Not the Thailand that blew me away. I am talking about the cultural character of the Thai people, their cuisine, their way of life, and their countryside. I still remember my time in Songkla. The seafood was really something and cost next to nothing. A US dollar could buy as many bahts and Indian rupees. The street market was full of life, simple but more than sufficient to keep a human being happy. I was looking at the wares of the vendors when a voice of a stranger drew my gaze to her face. She was explaining to me, in broken English, the stuff I was looking at. Wow, she was as beautiful as that girl from Ipanema. A Thai woman is God's gift to man. So gentle.
satch, you did good, man.
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Post by zazeniac on Jul 13, 2022 12:21:59 GMT -5
Why is it difficult to offer your condolences? You sound so familiar. Just now, as I am figuring out how to reply to you, I saw Martha's daughter sitting alone on her back porch. She is a very pretty young woman in her mid-thirties. She has a beautiful voice. So, had her mother, Martha. The two of them would break into a duet every so often, and their singing could be heard from where I am right now in my back garden writing to you people. Those were the days when Martha would light up even my life. She was a wonderful person, always cheerful, with so much to say to me about her writing. Yes, she was an aspiring writer of novels and we would discuss excitedly how to create a "hook" early in the storyline to keep the reader engaged in the plot. Ok, is this good enough as a tribute to Martha? I could even share it with everyone as an eulogy delivered by me, with tears running down my eyes, from the podium at their "Celebration of Life" event next Sunday. Right? But I won't.
People are such suckers for a life of pain and suffering. Even you and abscissa, who are supposed to be spiritually enlightened, feel that I should participate in an affair of the ignorant.
It is not easy for me living in this world among people who are conditioned as psychological beings. They see me as one of them. Their way of life of celebrating births and mourning deaths include fighting wars. There are nuclear missile silos all over the damn country; in them are deadly weapons all armed and ready for launch against Russia, China and God knows who else. Are you listening, zazeniac?
I'm far from enlightened. You gave me a good chortle there. Affairs of the ignorant? You looking for an aseptic, tidy world. Wrong planet. The dramas entertaining though. I have to say. |
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Death
Jul 13, 2022 12:29:41 GMT -5
Post by someNOTHING! on Jul 13, 2022 12:29:41 GMT -5
Why is it difficult to offer your condolences? You sound so familiar. Just now, as I am figuring out how to reply to you, I saw Martha's daughter sitting alone on her back porch. She is a very pretty young woman in her mid-thirties. She has a beautiful voice. So, had her mother, Martha. The two of them would break into a duet every so often, and their singing could be heard from where I am right now in my back garden writing to you people. Those were the days when Martha would light up even my life. She was a wonderful person, always cheerful, with so much to say to me about her writing. Yes, she was an aspiring writer of novels and we would discuss excitedly how to create a "hook" early in the storyline to keep the reader engaged in the plot. Ok, is this good enough as a tribute to Martha? I could even share it with everyone as an eulogy delivered by me, with tears running down my eyes, from the podium at their "Celebration of Life" event next Sunday. Right? But I won't. People are such suckers for a life of pain and suffering. Even you and abscissa, who are supposed to be spiritually enlightened, feel that I should participate in an affair of the ignorant.
It is not easy for me living in this world among people who are conditioned as psychological beings. They see me as one of them. Their way of life of celebrating births and mourning deaths include fighting wars. There are nuclear missile silos all over the damn country; in them are deadly weapons all armed and ready for launch against Russia, China and God knows who else. Are you listening, zazeniac?
I simply read Zazeniac's reply as a question about where such apparent resistance to just being a neighbor is coming from, even if you understand you are not one of them in how they celebrate and mourn. And then, he even alluded to compassion in 'how you sound familiar'. If not seeing it as a resistance, do you see your decision to not participate in that somewhat culturally conditioned mourning syle as a sort of model for how you would prefer to have people see/meet physical and/or psychological death? |
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Death
Jul 13, 2022 12:48:40 GMT -5
Post by sree on Jul 13, 2022 12:48:40 GMT -5
Just now, as I am figuring out how to reply to you, I saw Martha's daughter sitting alone on her back porch. She is a very pretty young woman in her mid-thirties. She has a beautiful voice. So, had her mother, Martha. The two of them would break into a duet every so often, and their singing could be heard from where I am right now in my back garden writing to you people. Those were the days when Martha would light up even my life. She was a wonderful person, always cheerful, with so much to say to me about her writing. Yes, she was an aspiring writer of novels and we would discuss excitedly how to create a "hook" early in the storyline to keep the reader engaged in the plot. Ok, is this good enough as a tribute to Martha? I could even share it with everyone as an eulogy delivered by me, with tears running down my eyes, from the podium at their "Celebration of Life" event next Sunday. Right? But I won't. People are such suckers for a life of pain and suffering. Even you and abscissa, who are supposed to be spiritually enlightened, feel that I should participate in an affair of the ignorant.
It is not easy for me living in this world among people who are conditioned as psychological beings. They see me as one of them. Their way of life of celebrating births and mourning deaths include fighting wars. There are nuclear missile silos all over the damn country; in them are deadly weapons all armed and ready for launch against Russia, China and God knows who else. Are you listening, zazeniac?
I simply read Zazeniac's reply as a question about where such apparent resistance to just being a neighbor is coming from, even if you understand you are not one of them in how they celebrate and mourn. And then, he even alluded to compassion in 'how you sound familiar'. If not seeing it as a resistance, do you see your decision to not participate in that somewhat culturally conditioned mourning syle as a sort of model for how you would prefer to have people see/meet physical and/or psychological death? Resistance to being a neighbor? How would you view China's resistance to being America's neighbor and refusing to join in our effort to isolate Russia?
What is right conduct? If killing is part of your way of life, isn't accepting your invitation to your birthday party a tacit approval of your moral ethics? |
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Death
Jul 13, 2022 12:50:55 GMT -5
Post by someNOTHING! on Jul 13, 2022 12:50:55 GMT -5
I simply read Zazeniac's reply as a question about where such apparent resistance to just being a neighbor is coming from, even if you understand you are not one of them in how they celebrate and mourn. And then, he even alluded to compassion in 'how you sound familiar'. If not seeing it as a resistance, do you see your decision to not participate in that somewhat culturally conditioned mourning syle as a sort of model for how you would prefer to have people see/meet physical and/or psychological death? Resistance to being a neighbor? How would you view China's resistance to being America's neighbor and refusing to join in our effort to isolate Russia? What is right conduct? If killing is part of your way of life, isn't accepting your invitation to your birthday party a tacit approval of your moral ethics? Um, OK. Maybe I didn't word my question well.  |
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Death
Jul 13, 2022 14:13:51 GMT -5
Post by sree on Jul 13, 2022 14:13:51 GMT -5
Just now, as I am figuring out how to reply to you, I saw Martha's daughter sitting alone on her back porch. She is a very pretty young woman in her mid-thirties. She has a beautiful voice. So, had her mother, Martha. The two of them would break into a duet every so often, and their singing could be heard from where I am right now in my back garden writing to you people. Those were the days when Martha would light up even my life. She was a wonderful person, always cheerful, with so much to say to me about her writing. Yes, she was an aspiring writer of novels and we would discuss excitedly how to create a "hook" early in the storyline to keep the reader engaged in the plot. Ok, is this good enough as a tribute to Martha? I could even share it with everyone as an eulogy delivered by me, with tears running down my eyes, from the podium at their "Celebration of Life" event next Sunday. Right? But I won't. People are such suckers for a life of pain and suffering. Even you and abscissa, who are supposed to be spiritually enlightened, feel that I should participate in an affair of the ignorant.
It is not easy for me living in this world among people who are conditioned as psychological beings. They see me as one of them. Their way of life of celebrating births and mourning deaths include fighting wars. There are nuclear missile silos all over the damn country; in them are deadly weapons all armed and ready for launch against Russia, China and God knows who else. Are you listening, zazeniac?
I simply read Zazeniac's reply as a question about where such apparent resistance to just being a neighbor is coming from, even if you understand you are not one of them in how they celebrate and mourn. And then, he even alluded to compassion in 'how you sound familiar'. If not seeing it as a resistance, do you see your decision to not participate in that somewhat culturally conditioned mourning syle as a sort of model for how you would prefer to have people see/meet physical and/or psychological death? Now, this is a good question coming from you.
The resistance comes from nowhere. There are some well-known public figures who just don't want the meaningless fuss even for themselves. If my body dies, just burn it as biological waste in that place where my dog was sent after it was put down by the vet. I don't even mind if my body is put in a plastic bag and placed in the bin for next Tuesday's trash pick-up.
My decision to not participate has nothing to do with my view of my own death even. I have not come to terms with it the way Krishnamurti had. I guess I am in the same boat as ouroboros who, in his Post No.859 Page 9, said:"Needless to say, death is the end of the psychological as well. And the absence felt by those left behind is of both in respect to their departed loved one. I'm aware of the Swiss Dignitas option. Although I couldn't imagine myself going that path."
Euthanasia makes sense when the body is no longer viable. But if our consciousness can change and humanity, which is us, can function as a seamless, selfless whole, there would be no wars and everyone would contribute to an absolutely secure world to live in. Imagine one big human family.
I once saw a three-year-old child bawling in a crowded mega store, tears running down his face and frantically looking around for his mother. The sea of people around him didn't count because they were strangers. It was so sad. How can we live this way?
So, if we could have a secure world of one selfless human family, how would we deal with terminating the life of the body? Would this option even arise? Are the diseases - such as diabetes, cardiovascular issues, cancers - we are suffering caused by the stress of living in a selfish world? We would all have healthy bodies that die naturally while asleep in old age.
What do you think?
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