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Death
Jul 13, 2022 15:40:31 GMT -5
Post by someNOTHING! on Jul 13, 2022 15:40:31 GMT -5
I simply read Zazeniac's reply as a question about where such apparent resistance to just being a neighbor is coming from, even if you understand you are not one of them in how they celebrate and mourn. And then, he even alluded to compassion in 'how you sound familiar'. If not seeing it as a resistance, do you see your decision to not participate in that somewhat culturally conditioned mourning syle as a sort of model for how you would prefer to have people see/meet physical and/or psychological death? Now, this is a good question coming from you.
(1)The resistance comes from nowhere. There are some well-known public figures who just don't want the meaningless fuss even for themselves. If my body dies, just burn it as biological waste in that place where my dog was sent after it was put down by the vet. I don't even mind if my body is put in a plastic bag and placed in the bin for next Tuesday's trash pick-up. My decision to not participate has nothing to do with my view of my own death even. I have not come to terms with it the way Krishnamurti had. I guess I am in the same boat as ouroboros who, in his Post No.859 Page 9, said:"Needless to say, death is the end of the psychological as well. And the absence felt by those left behind is of both in respect to their departed loved one. I'm aware of the Swiss Dignitas option. Although I couldn't imagine myself going that path."
Euthanasia makes sense when the body is no longer viable. (2) ....But if our consciousness can change and humanity, which is us, can function as a seamless, selfless whole, there would be no wars and everyone would contribute to an absolutely secure world to live in. Imagine one big human family.
I once saw a three-year-old child bawling in a crowded mega store, tears running down his face and frantically looking around for his mother. The sea of people around him didn't count because they were strangers. It was so sad. How can we live this way? (3)....So, if we could have a secure world of one selfless human family, how would we deal with terminating the life of the body? Would this option even arise? Are the diseases - such as diabetes, cardiovascular issues, cancers - we are suffering caused by the stress of living in a selfish world? We would all have healthy bodies that die naturally while asleep in old age. What do you think?
You don't know who/what they're coming from. Stay focused on your task. But honestly, I'm not really sure you know what that is. This is just a discussion, but what is your focus for having it? (1) Is that your final answer? Is it a sense of resignation or an answer you've questioned to the extreme and see it turtles all the way down? (not for you Tenka) You keep bringing up K like you want to know what he may be pointing to. Your onion. (2) EVERYTHING changes and humanity is an aspect of THIS seamless whole. Most are unconscious of the fascinating trick of light. As such, they operate at the level of their minds, pursue self-full agendas, have various insecurities, and some kill our sistas and brothas to achieve their goals and objectives. Perfectly so. (3) Such hopes are a distraction from what you can immediately see and inquire about. Stay focused. But sure, stress can be correlated with all sorts of psychosomatic illnesses and other outcomes. All the more reason to question and inquire into one's thoughts and beliefs. So, back to (1). Still feel resistance, resignation, or are you just a 'free Being' floating around in a prison of time/space prison? Your turn. What do you think? Just made a smaller snip of a previous wall of text on Eastern/Chinese medicine I shared with SDP. Not necessarily a truthy thingy, nor do I agree with everything therein. Sawwy to all for the repost. Connects::: Wisdom - Health - Death (psychosomatic potential correlations)  |
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Death
Jul 13, 2022 18:00:39 GMT -5
Post by sree on Jul 13, 2022 18:00:39 GMT -5
Sorry. Messed up post.
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Death
Jul 13, 2022 18:02:07 GMT -5
Post by sree on Jul 13, 2022 18:02:07 GMT -5
You don't know who/what they're coming from. Stay focused on your task. But honestly, I'm not really sure you know what that is. This is just a discussion, but what is your focus for having it? (1) Is that your final answer? Is it a sense of resignation or an answer you've questioned to the extreme and see it turtles all the way down? (not for you Tenka) You keep bringing up K like you want to know what he may be pointing to. Your onion. (2) EVERYTHING changes and humanity is an aspect of THIS seamless whole. Most are unconscious of the fascinating trick of light. As such, they operate at the level of their minds, pursue self-full agendas, have various insecurities, and some kill our sistas and brothas to achieve their goals and objectives. Perfectly so. (3) Such hopes are a distraction from what you can immediately see and inquire about. Stay focused. But sure, stress can be correlated with all sorts of psychosomatic illnesses and other outcomes. All the more reason to question and inquire into one's thoughts and beliefs. So, back to (1). Still feel resistance, resignation, or are you just a 'free Being' floating around in a prison of time/space prison? Your turn. What do you think? Just made a smaller snip of a previous wall of text on Eastern/Chinese medicine I shared with SDP. Not necessarily a truthy thingy, nor do I agree with everything therein. Sawwy to all for the repost. Connects::: Wisdom - Health - Death (psychosomatic potential correlations) My man, are you another Alan Watts espousing wisdom of the East? Your Yin Yang and Watt's Tao were also manufactured by the Western mind in nineteen century Europe the way Buddhism was.
Look, you are a white guy. Me too. We can't squat like the folks in India and China. Their bodies are limber. They do martial arts by leaping into the air and kick with their legs. Our bodies are heavy. We shuffle about on the ground and box with our fists. Our minds are built different. Let's not fake spirituality of the East. Let's not be little men with big mouths. It's pathetic.
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Death
Jul 13, 2022 18:21:47 GMT -5
Post by someNOTHING! on Jul 13, 2022 18:21:47 GMT -5
My man, are you another Alan Watts espousing wisdom of the East? Your Yin Yang and Watt's Tao were also manufactured by the Western mind in nineteen century Europe the way Buddhism was.
Look, you are a white guy. Me too. We can't squat like the folks in India and China. Their bodies are limber. They do martial arts by leaping into the air and kick with their legs. Our bodies are heavy. We shuffle about on the ground and box with our fists. Our minds are built different. Let's not fake spirituality of the East. Let's not be little men with big mouths. It's pathetic. More irony!  I can squat, am still relatively limber, and tend to stay decently in a good BMI range. My mind tends to feel more at home in different parts of Asia in many ways, but probably more about the being open to the adventure. I sense resignation, and you continue to project a very negative internal sense of self on to life. Others here are probably aware of it, as well. It doesn't have to be that way. I gave it a go, but it seems we're done. 👋🏽 |
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Death
Jul 13, 2022 18:45:13 GMT -5
Post by sree on Jul 13, 2022 18:45:13 GMT -5
More irony! I can squat, am still relatively limber, and tend to stay decently in a good BMI range. My mind tends to feel more at home in different parts of Asia in many ways, but probably more about the being open to the adventure. I sense resignation, and you continue to project a very negative internal sense of self on to life. Others here are probably aware of it, as well. It doesn't have to be that way. I gave it a go, but it seems we're done. 👋🏽 We are not done. I would never give up on you or anyone over a point of view or two. Where is the love?
I am just telling you that we can figure life out our way. We don't have to go Yin Yang. Frankly, I don't believe the Chinese can either. They have gone west wholesale lock,stock and barrel. Look at their cities, infrastructure, and national grid. They are like us. All technological. Look at their women's fashion and style. It's Revlon and Gucci and Victoria Secret and Louboutin. Try talking to a Chinese in Hong Kong, Taipeh and Bejing about Yin Yang. He would laugh at you. |
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Death
Jul 13, 2022 19:12:35 GMT -5
Post by someNOTHING! on Jul 13, 2022 19:12:35 GMT -5
More irony! I can squat, am still relatively limber, and tend to stay decently in a good BMI range. My mind tends to feel more at home in different parts of Asia in many ways, but probably more about the being open to the adventure. I sense resignation, and you continue to project a very negative internal sense of self on to life. Others here are probably aware of it, as well. It doesn't have to be that way. I gave it a go, but it seems we're done. 👋🏽 We are not done. I would never give up on you or anyone over a point of view or two. Where is the love?
I am just telling you that we can figure life out our way. We don't have to go Yin Yang. Frankly, I don't believe the Chinese can either. They have gone west wholesale lock,stock and barrel. Look at their cities, infrastructure, and national grid. They are like us. All technological. Look at their women's fashion and style. It's Revlon and Gucci and Victoria Secret and Louboutin. Try talking to a Chinese in Hong Kong, Taipeh and Bejing about Yin Yang. He would laugh at you. There's no willingness, and you're too lazy and busy making assumptions about who/waht you're talking to. I took the time and gave you honest answers specifically based on your posts. You do not even consider the feedback and immediately jump to assumptions about me. I have no existential questions with respect to what's being pointed to by JC, K, or whoever. Am I curious how IT's manifesting or do I enjoy playing in the currents and waves? Yes, sure. The Eastern/Chinese medicine text sure seemed very aligned to several of the ideas that were part of the discussion, and I even stated them for you. But, I guess it fell on eyes and a mind blinded by what they see. In the text, there's even some non-dualish feeling sense of Wisdom. Perhaps you didn't even give it a read, and just jumped on the yin-yang stuff because it is considered so mainstream. I've seen this before... a lot. Just like the rest of the terminology of such studies, very few are aware of the substance that it refers to. I never went deeply into the study of that medicine system, but it held my attention to some degree, enough to respect it and use it at various times. Are you aware of how many Chinese, Korean, Japanese, and Taiwanese actually do go to Eastern medicine doctors... like daily? I don't remember ever having a convo with any of them about Eastern medicine in which they laughed, except maybe at themselves for not knowing much about it. But having helped a doctor in Kyoto edit his presentation for an international conference, I was impressed by the extent to which he was so dedicated, knowledgeable, and even philosophical on the topic. Good times. If I ever see any willingness to really engage, rather than deflect or project, I might consider it. But honestly, there are better things to do with my time besides fight your battles for you. Until then, we're done. Peace, man. |
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Death
Jul 14, 2022 6:24:56 GMT -5
Post by laughter on Jul 14, 2022 6:24:56 GMT -5
Then I shall consider it a boon that my propensity to want to talk, both on and offline is actually quite limited. It doesn't bother me too much that people might think we are weirdos. Other than the usual social, and perhaps biological conditioning- to be accepted as part of the group. But being conscious of it tends to mitigate that somewhat. I'm a bit of a loner anyway, and truth be told I don't have a particularly high opinion of folks generally. So no, I don't bother too much what other people think of me. And I learnt a long time ago that talking about spirituality to those who's radar it isn't already on, tends to result in either incredulity or alarm. So I haven't bothered with that for a long time, and appreciate the value of a venue such as this. What I said before wasn't strictly limited to the biological. Needless to say, death is the end of the psychological as well. And the absence felt by those left behind is of both in respect to their departed loved one. I'm aware of the Swiss Dignitas option. Although I couldn't imagine myself going that path. I do see the disconnect. I could say that when it comes to healthcare money talks, and that it's a consequence of a consumer based society. Along with the 'out of sight out of mind' disposition you alluded to before. That ideally there'd be a better balance between prolonging life at all cost for the advantaged, and ignoring the plight of the disadvantaged entirely. I could say that ultimately the disconnect can be envisaged as coming about as a result of ignorance [of spiritual matters]. Basically shortsightedness and skewed values. Idk, maybe the world moves at its own pace, with any improvement coming in fits and starts. Perhaps as the result of strife, or as great teachers pass through. But incrementally. Or perhaps it's that some things will never change. What do you think?I think you are one smart guy. This is not a compliment but can be a statement of fact. My fact. I have been mulling over what you said above. I agree with your views on all points except believing that things will never change. Things never changed for Krishnamurti despite his life-long urging for change in human consciousness, that's for sure. Our geopolitical situation seems to be worsening. Americans are getting crazy. At the fundamental level, as a human being, there is no escape. Personally, I have been plotting for a way out. If Rome burns, I need to be in Sicily. Do you know what I mean?
We plot all the time to escape suffering. And this is why our consciousness has become our prison. "Can suffering end?" asked Krishnamurti. End it, he says. But there is no how, no way to do it, no method, no path, and - worse of all - no time to do it. The ending of suffering has to come about instantly! Death is the key, he said. Die to the self, the "me", die to everything that thought has put together.
Look, are you on board with this? I can't do this alone. I need brain power. But - as Krishnamurti said - we are all fragmented. Each of us who had listened to his teaching has become a light to himself. Like fireflies lighting up my garden, the enlightened ones fly their own separate ways. Unless we work together, we will not generate the power to break the karma.
In a TED talk I watched the other day, the speaker pointed out that no one has ever seen two chimps carrying a log to build a bridge across a stream. Chimps don't seem to have the idea of cooperative effort. We are no better than a bunch of monkeys when it comes to liberating ourselves from suffering.
What do you think? Are you really a smart guy or just a clever chimp?
cute imagery in service of a noble notion. I second much of what ouroboros expressed. He is a smart guy. I've enjoyed debating him. He often applies his intellect in service of expressing his perspective on existential truth, with potentially enriching results.
But, there is no cultural resolution to what can seem to a truth seeker to be the existential dilemma. There is no separating culture and ego. The profound gravity of that truth shines through ego's distortions, but distort, the ego inevitably will. The grace of his Guru, to Niz, was in part due to a cultural continuity, but it seems to me that the Buddhists name the "Diamond Sutra" as they did in part because this truth cannot be rended, and in part because of the issue of rarity. Truth, in this regard, bears a similarity to genius, and beauty.
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Death
Jul 14, 2022 6:27:31 GMT -5
Post by laughter on Jul 14, 2022 6:27:31 GMT -5
I think I do but I could be wrong. You have been there for 25 years, I was just passing through. Bangkok is not Buddhism. It is Maya. And those bars sprouted out all over Bangkok for US soldiers on Rest & Recreation from the Vietnam War. After that, the farangs moved in from the UK and Europe. There is pretty weird stuff there now. Back in those days when yanks were in those bars, it was straight-up man/woman stuff that even Jesus would not send them to Hell for. The kind of farangs I think you are referring to is bad news. Germans, I was told. Kinky guys.
Don't tell me you were drawn to Thailand 25 years ago to build a career in real estate. Maya was calling, right? Don't get me wrong. I am a man and we are hardwired to be fruitful and multiply. This is how the Devil gets us. Imagine Jesus going through Maya Maya for forty nights in the desert. I can't say I blame you for assuming I visited Thailand as a stereotypical sexpat tourist, but I went there for business reasons to help out some old University pals who started a travel agency and decided to stay. I've had an affinity for Asia since I spent most of my childhood in Singapore and Hong Kong. I recall watching Prince Charles in the retreat ceremony, I think in 1999, the soldiers in full formal regalia, standing stock still before a final salute, in a raging downpour. Quite the drama! |
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Death
Jul 14, 2022 6:30:09 GMT -5
Post by laughter on Jul 14, 2022 6:30:09 GMT -5
Why is it difficult to offer your condolences? You sound so familiar. Just now, as I am figuring out how to reply to you, I saw Martha's daughter sitting alone on her back porch. She is a very pretty young woman in her mid-thirties. She has a beautiful voice. So, had her mother, Martha. The two of them would break into a duet every so often, and their singing could be heard from where I am right now in my back garden writing to you people. Those were the days when Martha would light up even my life. She was a wonderful person, always cheerful, with so much to say to me about her writing. Yes, she was an aspiring writer of novels and we would discuss excitedly how to create a "hook" early in the storyline to keep the reader engaged in the plot. Ok, is this good enough as a tribute to Martha? I could even share it with everyone as an eulogy delivered by me, with tears running down my eyes, from the podium at their "Celebration of Life" event next Sunday. Right? But I won't. People are such suckers for a life of pain and suffering. Even you and abscissa, who are supposed to be spiritually enlightened, feel that I should participate in an affair of the ignorant.
It is not easy for me living in this world among people who are conditioned as psychological beings. They see me as one of them. Their way of life of celebrating births and mourning deaths include fighting wars. There are nuclear missile silos all over the damn country; in them are deadly weapons all armed and ready for launch against Russia, China and God knows who else. Are you listening, zazeniac?
It's really too bad you're not going to share that. Their loss. Funerals and wakes are for the living, not the dead. A story like that can help people more fully appreciate how blessed they were, which is, of course, how anyone who truly loved you when they were alive would want you to remember them. |
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Death
Jul 14, 2022 6:56:57 GMT -5
Post by ouroboros on Jul 14, 2022 6:56:57 GMT -5
Then I shall consider it a boon that my propensity to want to talk, both on and offline is actually quite limited. It doesn't bother me too much that people might think we are weirdos. Other than the usual social, and perhaps biological conditioning- to be accepted as part of the group. But being conscious of it tends to mitigate that somewhat. I'm a bit of a loner anyway, and truth be told I don't have a particularly high opinion of folks generally. So no, I don't bother too much what other people think of me. And I learnt a long time ago that talking about spirituality to those who's radar it isn't already on, tends to result in either incredulity or alarm. So I haven't bothered with that for a long time, and appreciate the value of a venue such as this. What I said before wasn't strictly limited to the biological. Needless to say, death is the end of the psychological as well. And the absence felt by those left behind is of both in respect to their departed loved one. I'm aware of the Swiss Dignitas option. Although I couldn't imagine myself going that path. I do see the disconnect. I could say that when it comes to healthcare money talks, and that it's a consequence of a consumer based society. Along with the 'out of sight out of mind' disposition you alluded to before. That ideally there'd be a better balance between prolonging life at all cost for the advantaged, and ignoring the plight of the disadvantaged entirely. I could say that ultimately the disconnect can be envisaged as coming about as a result of ignorance [of spiritual matters]. Basically shortsightedness and skewed values. Idk, maybe the world moves at its own pace, with any improvement coming in fits and starts. Perhaps as the result of strife, or as great teachers pass through. But incrementally. Or perhaps it's that some things will never change. What do you think?I think you are one smart guy. This is not a compliment but can be a statement of fact. My fact. I have been mulling over what you said above. I agree with your views on all points except believing that things will never change. Things never changed for Krishnamurti despite his life-long urging for change in human consciousness, that's for sure. Our geopolitical situation seems to be worsening. Americans are getting crazy. At the fundamental level, as a human being, there is no escape. Personally, I have been plotting for a way out. If Rome burns, I need to be in Sicily. Do you know what I mean?
We plot all the time to escape suffering. And this is why our consciousness has become our prison. "Can suffering end?" asked Krishnamurti. End it, he says. But there is no how, no way to do it, no method, no path, and - worse of all - no time to do it. The ending of suffering has to come about instantly! Death is the key, he said. Die to the self, the "me", die to everything that thought has put together.
Look, are you on board with this? I can't do this alone. I need brain power. But - as Krishnamurti said - we are all fragmented. Each of us who had listened to his teaching has become a light to himself. Like fireflies lighting up my garden, the enlightened ones fly their own separate ways. Unless we work together, we will not generate the power to break the karma.
In a TED talk I watched the other day, the speaker pointed out that no one has ever seen two chimps carrying a log to build a bridge across a stream. Chimps don't seem to have the idea of cooperative effort. We are no better than a bunch of monkeys when it comes to liberating ourselves from suffering.
What do you think? Are you really a smart guy or just a clever chimp?
Regarding your last question, I seem to be in the minority here, insofar as I don't really do 'what I am'. And I don't expect to be changing the world either, at least this time around. You might think that’s defeatist, but I consider myself a realist. I'm still working through some stuff. I'm not really drawn to JK, but wanted to mention that some of your discourse on the forum conjures a quandary I've seen raised, about personal versus collective enlightenment. One school promotes and focuses on the idea of personal liberation. Another posits there can be no true and lasting Peace while beings in the world continue to suffer, aka the role of the bodhisattva. Thus, the role is to delay the culmination of personal liberation (death and the end of rebirth) and try to improve the world at large. So another disconnect I suppose. Both positions raise myriad questions, but it's why I asked whether you consider some things would never change. I mean, if that were the case the role would pretty much be moot, right. Or at least perpetual. Society has a tough balance to strike between the desires of the individuated and the good of the collective. It's a tough gig, so it makes sense any improvement is slow. For me, society seems to have lurched from the pitfalls of religion to the pitfalls of secularism in recent times. Although there's still a lot of both. But perhaps in time it may settle between those by embracing the spiritual. I say, whether it knows it or not, science is already grappling with the prospect. |
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Death
Jul 14, 2022 7:11:01 GMT -5
Post by laughter on Jul 14, 2022 7:11:01 GMT -5
I think you are one smart guy. This is not a compliment but can be a statement of fact. My fact. I have been mulling over what you said above. I agree with your views on all points except believing that things will never change. Things never changed for Krishnamurti despite his life-long urging for change in human consciousness, that's for sure. Our geopolitical situation seems to be worsening. Americans are getting crazy. At the fundamental level, as a human being, there is no escape. Personally, I have been plotting for a way out. If Rome burns, I need to be in Sicily. Do you know what I mean?
We plot all the time to escape suffering. And this is why our consciousness has become our prison. "Can suffering end?" asked Krishnamurti. End it, he says. But there is no how, no way to do it, no method, no path, and - worse of all - no time to do it. The ending of suffering has to come about instantly! Death is the key, he said. Die to the self, the "me", die to everything that thought has put together.
Look, are you on board with this? I can't do this alone. I need brain power. But - as Krishnamurti said - we are all fragmented. Each of us who had listened to his teaching has become a light to himself. Like fireflies lighting up my garden, the enlightened ones fly their own separate ways. Unless we work together, we will not generate the power to break the karma.
In a TED talk I watched the other day, the speaker pointed out that no one has ever seen two chimps carrying a log to build a bridge across a stream. Chimps don't seem to have the idea of cooperative effort. We are no better than a bunch of monkeys when it comes to liberating ourselves from suffering.
What do you think? Are you really a smart guy or just a clever chimp?
Regarding your last question, I seem to be in the minority here, insofar as I don't really do 'what I am'. And I don't expect to be changing the world either, at least this time around. You might think that’s defeatist, but I consider myself a realist. I'm still working through some stuff. I'm not really drawn to JK, but wanted to mention that some of your discourse on the forum conjures a quandary I've seen raised, about personal versus collective enlightenment. One school promotes and focuses on the idea of personal liberation. Another posits there can be no true and lasting Peace while beings in the world continue to suffer, aka the role of the bodhisattva. Thus, the role is to delay the culmination of personal liberation (death and the end of rebirth) and try to improve the world at large. So another disconnect I suppose. Both positions raise myriad questions, but it's why I asked whether you consider some things would never change. I mean, if that were the case the role would pretty much be moot, right. Or at least perpetual. Society has a tough balance to strike between the desires of the individuated and the good of the collective. It's a tough gig, so it makes sense any improvement is slow. For me, society seems to have lurched from the pitfalls of religion to the pitfalls of secularism in recent times. Although there's still a lot of both. But perhaps in time it may settle between those by embracing the spiritual. I say, whether it knows it or not, science is already grappling with the prospect. Do you see how this relates to sree's notion that nothing ever changes? Everything is constantly in an ever-ephemeral flux, but there is never anything truly new under the Sun. This it ever is through the prism of mind! |
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Death
Jul 14, 2022 7:45:03 GMT -5
Post by ouroboros on Jul 14, 2022 7:45:03 GMT -5
Regarding your last question, I seem to be in the minority here, insofar as I don't really do 'what I am'. And I don't expect to be changing the world either, at least this time around. You might think that’s defeatist, but I consider myself a realist. I'm still working through some stuff. I'm not really drawn to JK, but wanted to mention that some of your discourse on the forum conjures a quandary I've seen raised, about personal versus collective enlightenment. One school promotes and focuses on the idea of personal liberation. Another posits there can be no true and lasting Peace while beings in the world continue to suffer, aka the role of the bodhisattva. Thus, the role is to delay the culmination of personal liberation (death and the end of rebirth) and try to improve the world at large. So another disconnect I suppose. Both positions raise myriad questions, but it's why I asked whether you consider some things would never change. I mean, if that were the case the role would pretty much be moot, right. Or at least perpetual. Society has a tough balance to strike between the desires of the individuated and the good of the collective. It's a tough gig, so it makes sense any improvement is slow. For me, society seems to have lurched from the pitfalls of religion to the pitfalls of secularism in recent times. Although there's still a lot of both. But perhaps in time it may settle between those by embracing the spiritual. I say, whether it knows it or not, science is already grappling with the prospect. Do you see how this relates to sree's notion that nothing ever changes? Everything is constantly in an ever-ephemeral flux, but there is never anything truly new under the Sun. This it ever is through the prism of mind! To be fair I posed 'whether some things may never change' as a question before that, and he said he didn't see that as being the case. So he thinks wholesale change is a possibility. I'm just not understanding how he proposes about achieving that. Instigating it, or at least accelerating it. It must be done collectively as he sees it, and he seems to want it done now for his peace of mind. I don't think it's going to come by understanding and spreading JK's teachings. These conversations always conjure the adage 'be the change you want to see in the world'. I'm not sure dropping out and concentrating on boats and fine dining is the answer either. Tbh I'm not exactly sure where he's coming from yet, so just probing. |
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Post by zazeniac on Jul 14, 2022 9:19:20 GMT -5
I think you are one smart guy. This is not a compliment but can be a statement of fact. My fact. I have been mulling over what you said above. I agree with your views on all points except believing that things will never change. Things never changed for Krishnamurti despite his life-long urging for change in human consciousness, that's for sure. Our geopolitical situation seems to be worsening. Americans are getting crazy. At the fundamental level, as a human being, there is no escape. Personally, I have been plotting for a way out. If Rome burns, I need to be in Sicily. Do you know what I mean?
We plot all the time to escape suffering. And this is why our consciousness has become our prison. "Can suffering end?" asked Krishnamurti. End it, he says. But there is no how, no way to do it, no method, no path, and - worse of all - no time to do it. The ending of suffering has to come about instantly! Death is the key, he said. Die to the self, the "me", die to everything that thought has put together.
Look, are you on board with this? I can't do this alone. I need brain power. But - as Krishnamurti said - we are all fragmented. Each of us who had listened to his teaching has become a light to himself. Like fireflies lighting up my garden, the enlightened ones fly their own separate ways. Unless we work together, we will not generate the power to break the karma.
In a TED talk I watched the other day, the speaker pointed out that no one has ever seen two chimps carrying a log to build a bridge across a stream. Chimps don't seem to have the idea of cooperative effort. We are no better than a bunch of monkeys when it comes to liberating ourselves from suffering.
What do you think? Are you really a smart guy or just a clever chimp?
Regarding your last question, I seem to be in the minority here, insofar as I don't really do 'what I am'. And I don't expect to be changing the world either, at least this time around. You might think that’s defeatist, but I consider myself a realist. I'm still working through some stuff. I'm not really drawn to JK, but wanted to mention that some of your discourse on the forum conjures a quandary I've seen raised, about personal versus collective enlightenment. One school promotes and focuses on the idea of personal liberation. Another posits there can be no true and lasting Peace while beings in the world continue to suffer, aka the role of the bodhisattva. Thus, the role is to delay the culmination of personal liberation (death and the end of rebirth) and try to improve the world at large. So another disconnect I suppose. Both positions raise myriad questions, but it's why I asked whether you consider some things would never change. I mean, if that were the case the role would pretty much be moot, right. Or at least perpetual. Society has a tough balance to strike between the desires of the individuated and the good of the collective. It's a tough gig, so it makes sense any improvement is slow. For me, society seems to have lurched from the pitfalls of religion to the pitfalls of secularism in recent times. Although there's still a lot of both. But perhaps in time it may settle between those by embracing the spiritual. I say, whether it knows it or not, science is already grappling with the prospect. I walk my dog late morning. After folks have run their sprinklers. The earthworms escape drowning by squiggling to the sidewalk. A brutal choice, because if the sun gets too high before the ground gets dry, they fry, crispy. My dog eats them. Occasionally, I find one moving, still alive, and pick him up and set him in the grass, a dry area. Strange how the body reacts at having to pick them up. Some of it, I think, is fear of crushing them with my clumsy fingers. I see my path clearly now. I am the bodhisattva of earthworms. This morning two tiny dragon flies, the color of blue crystal, danced for me on the grass, such an honor. I'm still dazzled by the memory of their beauty. |
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Post by ouroboros on Jul 14, 2022 9:25:25 GMT -5
Regarding your last question, I seem to be in the minority here, insofar as I don't really do 'what I am'. And I don't expect to be changing the world either, at least this time around. You might think that’s defeatist, but I consider myself a realist. I'm still working through some stuff. I'm not really drawn to JK, but wanted to mention that some of your discourse on the forum conjures a quandary I've seen raised, about personal versus collective enlightenment. One school promotes and focuses on the idea of personal liberation. Another posits there can be no true and lasting Peace while beings in the world continue to suffer, aka the role of the bodhisattva. Thus, the role is to delay the culmination of personal liberation (death and the end of rebirth) and try to improve the world at large. So another disconnect I suppose. Both positions raise myriad questions, but it's why I asked whether you consider some things would never change. I mean, if that were the case the role would pretty much be moot, right. Or at least perpetual. Society has a tough balance to strike between the desires of the individuated and the good of the collective. It's a tough gig, so it makes sense any improvement is slow. For me, society seems to have lurched from the pitfalls of religion to the pitfalls of secularism in recent times. Although there's still a lot of both. But perhaps in time it may settle between those by embracing the spiritual. I say, whether it knows it or not, science is already grappling with the prospect. I walk my dog late morning. After folks have run their sprinklers. The earthworms escape drowning by squiggling to the sidewalk. A brutal choice, because if the sun gets too high before the ground gets dry, they fry, crispy. My dog eats them. Occasionally, I find one moving, still alive, and pick him up and set him in the grass, a dry area. Strange how the body reacts at having to pick them up. Some of it, I think, is fear of crushing them with my clumsy fingers. I see my path clearly now. I am the bodhisattva of earthworms. This morning two tiny dragon flies, the color of blue crystal, danced for me on the grass, such an honor. I'm still dazzled by the memory of their beauty. Haha, I do exactly the same with the earthworms. But rather shiftily I wait for any passing cars or pedestrians to move on first, coz I worry about looking like a weirdo. I've been known to fake tying my shoelaces. Doh! |
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Death
Jul 14, 2022 10:54:31 GMT -5
Post by sree on Jul 14, 2022 10:54:31 GMT -5
Regarding your last question, I seem to be in the minority here, insofar as I don't really do 'what I am'. And I don't expect to be changing the world either, at least this time around. You might think that’s defeatist, but I consider myself a realist. I'm still working through some stuff. I'm not really drawn to JK, but wanted to mention that some of your discourse on the forum conjures a quandary I've seen raised, about personal versus collective enlightenment. One school promotes and focuses on the idea of personal liberation. Another posits there can be no true and lasting Peace while beings in the world continue to suffer, aka the role of the bodhisattva. Thus, the role is to delay the culmination of personal liberation (death and the end of rebirth) and try to improve the world at large. So another disconnect I suppose. Both positions raise myriad questions, but it's why I asked whether you consider some things would never change. I mean, if that were the case the role would pretty much be moot, right. Or at least perpetual. Society has a tough balance to strike between the desires of the individuated and the good of the collective. It's a tough gig, so it makes sense any improvement is slow. For me, society seems to have lurched from the pitfalls of religion to the pitfalls of secularism in recent times. Although there's still a lot of both. But perhaps in time it may settle between those by embracing the spiritual. I say, whether it knows it or not, science is already grappling with the prospect. I walk my dog late morning. After folks have run their sprinklers. The earthworms escape drowning by squiggling to the sidewalk. A brutal choice, because if the sun gets too high before the ground gets dry, they fry, crispy. My dog eats them. Occasionally, I find one moving, still alive, and pick him up and set him in the grass, a dry area. Strange how the body reacts at having to pick them up. Some of it, I think, is fear of crushing them with my clumsy fingers. I see my path clearly now. I am the bodhisattva of earthworms. This morning two tiny dragon flies, the color of blue crystal, danced for me on the grass, such an honor. I'm still dazzled by the memory of their beauty. You walk your dog. You fear crushing the earthworms with your fingers. But you are all out for the war in Ukraine. You don't fear getting people dying there at the rate of 500 a day with your tax dollars. Me, I watch robins hopping about in my garden picking up and gobbling the earthworms that crawl out of the ground after the rain. "The wise do nothing and everything is done. The foolish have much to do and everything is undone." (Tao Te Ching)
So, what are you doing after the earthworms saving and people killing? Do you also do baby showers and bachelorette parties?
Right action. This is what spirituality is about.
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