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Post by inavalan on Sept 14, 2021 14:35:48 GMT -5
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 14, 2021 19:35:05 GMT -5
I've gone round and round with zd on this for 12 years. I have a pretty firm rule here, I don't talk specifically about practices, I don't talk about experiences. I've skated the edges of both of these... There is a kind of general rule here, also a kind of taboo, woo woo. And most of the foremost posters here do not consider experiences significant, especially woo woo. But one persons woo woo is another persons sacred. It seems zd (and others here) have formed an artificial boundary, a conceptual boundary disallowing any significant exploration beyond their realizations. And he has said he has never had one of his realizations later contradicted. So, basically, I post, and it doesn't go much further. I confirm others when I can agree with them, but I have added many times, there is more. There is more. I guess it's maybe possible to touch the more, but not-know what one has touched, maybe it immediately gets categorized as woo woo or insignificant (but IMO, this is just not possible, there's just too dramatic a difference. But I do know that a written account read by one who has not been there, is unrecognizable, it's just words). Most of the regular posters also ignore any mention of higher dimensions, or relegate them to insignificance. Those that do are indicating 'Seth-stuff' is not significant. But yes, there is a line drawn, OTOH, if you don't see that coming to the unborn is the end of the journey, you haven't gotten it. OToH I say coming to the unborn is just the beginning of the journey. The unborn is a kind of seed, or egg. But nobody wants to sit on an egg and incubate it, especially if they consider it already hatched. There is a spiritual journey, but it's a spiral, not a closed loop. The whole universe is quantum based. Worlds are discontinuous with each other, that's why it seems there is nowhere else to go. But the quantum gap can be crossed, and a new world entered. Glimpsed at first, but entered. It's more-real than this world even, and can't be imagined. And you always want to go back. I know, if zd reads this, he will consider it irrelevant (and at the same time consider his view the more significant). Thus, the secret protects itself. I consider understanding more significant than a realization. SDP: Those are some curious comments to make considering what's been posted here over the years. Most of us have talked about practices (ATA-T, zazen, shikan taza, staying in the I Am, contemplation, etc), and most of us have talked about the correlation between those kinds of practices (which often lead to mental silence), and realizations. We've also talked about experiences, and particularly woo-woo experiences. Reefs and I have written about kensho events and how significant kensho events (or experiences if one wants to call them that), can result in major realizations. You say that you consider understanding more significant than a realization, but realizations are what inform understanding by revealing what is NOT true. As someone driven almost solely by intellectual curiosity, all I wanted to understand was, in essence, "What's going on?" I knew, intuitively, that the consensus paradigm didn't make any sense, and I had no idea what I would need to discover to resolve all of the existential questions and paradoxes that plagued me. The first big woo-woo experience/event that occurred clearly answered 7 of my main questions, and that's what I used to argue with Enigma about. He dismissed ALL experiences, even non-dual kensho kinds of woo-woo events/experiences, because, from his POV, they have what he considered a beginning, middle, and end, and he rejected the idea that there could be timeless seeings into our true nature that were worth having and would yield important insights. People in the Zen tradition contemplate dozens, if not hundreds, of existential questions in the form of koans, and they resolve those koans simply by sitting in silence. In my case, solving one or two dozen of the simpler koans quickly showed me that I could find the answer to any existential question by simply bearing in mind what I wanted to know. Understanding increased as various realizations revealed that various deeply ingrained ideas about the nature of reality that I believed were true simply weren't. That's why many sages describe the path of Self-discovery as one of subtraction rather than addition. Ideas cease to have importance as we discover that they are all cartoons that keep us distracted or separated from the absolute truth of "what is." As far as I can see, there's no taboo against saying anything on the forum that one wants to say, but whatever is said is certainly open to challenge. I primarily challenge you because you seem to have so many ideas ABOUT the nature of "what is," and there's a huge difference between ideas ABOUT "what is" and what "what is" is in itself. You frequently list idea after idea that you seem to be attached to, and none of them have anything to do with what's right in front of our eyes right this moment. They're all abstractions, but "what is" is not abstract. Note that my reply was to inavalan. What I think I've heard from people here over the years is one can't come to truth through experience. I don't understand these realizations show what isn't true. I've watched Jeopardy over many years going back to the original host Art Fleming. I'll never be on Jeopardy but my number one rule would be, don't guess. There are a gazillion wrong answers, only one right answer. I'd rather discover what's not true by finding out what IS true. I understand the ND world. All I can say is, so what? As analogy, for physicists 96% of the universe is missing. The 96% consists of dark matter and dark energy which physicists know virtually nothing about. The approximately 4% is the Periodic Table/matter and energy, multiple galaxies and quantum fields, etc. I figure the most I know about anything is like the 4%. But I know what attention is and awareness and consciousness, and I know these are the way forward, and only these. Yes, I talk about maps sometimes, but I know the maps have been made by those who have been to the territory. In my tradition there are what's called deliberate inexactitudes, or the law of otherwise. There are deliberate falsehoods in the teaching, they're there to find and not-teach. This is a guard against mere knowledge, understanding supersedes knowledge/maps. 10%-20% (that's a guess) of Beelzebub's Tales (1238 pages) is pure crap nonsense/misleading, wild goose chases and dead ends. Artificial "deserts" are created as obstacles to be gotten through. And the truth therein is made very difficult to understand. And Gurdjieff lived in such a manner that nobody could make him an idol/icon, only the teaching is important, not him. He made it clear that he didn't invent the teaching, he just passed on to others what he was taught. I understand Socrates completely, "If I am wise, it's because I know I know nothing" (not saying I'm wise). That's all I've got right now...
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 14, 2021 19:56:21 GMT -5
Nagarjuna the Buddhist philosopher was called the second Buddha. His coming to be was prophesied by Buddha. Concerning "truth" Nagarjuna taught: 1: It is; 2: It is not; 3: It neither is nor is not; 4: It both is and is not. Logic doesn't get one to truth. Seeming contradiction are not always contradictions. aeon.co/essays/the-logic-of-buddhist-philosophy-goes-beyond-simple-truth
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Xiao
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Post by Xiao on Sept 14, 2021 20:37:36 GMT -5
Nagarjuna the Buddhist philosopher was called the second Buddha. His coming to be was prophesied by Buddha. Concerning "truth" Nagarjuna taught: 1: It is; 2: It is not; 3: It neither is nor is not; 4: It both is and is not. Logic doesn't get one to truth. Seeming contradiction are not always contradictions. Nitpicking perhaps, but there is no good evidence for this and it's one of those things you see thrown around without a citation or source behind it. Believing that is only a step away from buying into the virgin birth of Jesus or that the Buddha emerged from his mother's side and immediately was able to walk. It's also irrelevant to the rest of the post, as such a claim shouldn't strengthen any teaching he would've had by association with the Buddha or anything like that, though that is probably what the original idea behind the story was. My pet peeves aside, the fourfold logical teaching is called the Tetralemma and it is not unique to Nagarjuna. A fun exercise in logic, if nothing else.
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Post by inavalan on Sept 15, 2021 1:01:42 GMT -5
Nagarjuna the Buddhist philosopher was called the second Buddha. His coming to be was prophesied by Buddha. Concerning "truth" Nagarjuna taught: 1: It is; 2: It is not; 3: It neither is nor is not; 4: It both is and is not. Logic doesn't get one to truth. Seeming contradiction are not always contradictions. aeon.co/essays/the-logic-of-buddhist-philosophy-goes-beyond-simple-truthThat is a contradiction. You're mudding the water there. It wasn't about truth, nor logic.
what's right in front of our eyes right this moment
vs.
he thinks that I think that there's an objective physical world, and from my POV the idea of an objective physical world is just another idea worth throwing in the trashcan
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Post by laughter on Sept 15, 2021 4:24:35 GMT -5
I was going to comment on this as well (and actually deleted a post), but then I realized that what inavalen wrote, specifically, was that his perception was that you interpret what he describes "from the position that there is an objective physical world". Sorry, I know this is involved. It's a complicated distinction, but not quite a subtle one: he thinks that you think that he thinks there's an objective, physical world. You keep misspelling my screen name, I believe you do it on purpose. I dislike it. Regarding zendancer's beliefs ... This exchange started from "his seeing here and now" (paraphrased), which implies an objective reality, to which I expressed my disagreement. He won't accept my observation from principle, and will try to drown me with words and concepts that mostly mean nothing, at least to me. So as in the past we reached an impasse again, which we call impasse in communication, but it is something else. It's not on purpose, it's just that I'm about the opposite of anally retentive as a person can be. "Here and now" is not a reference to an objective reality, that is your misinterpretation.
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Post by laughter on Sept 15, 2021 4:31:50 GMT -5
My experience is that you could do worse than being "stuck" in a practice. You could be stuck in the belief that you are free when every word you write or utter, every thought, every deed belies that belief. There's a mighty steep fall from the high horse of so called Self-Realization to the ground. Some are still clinging to that even if their head is bloodied and their eye is hanging out the socket. I'm reminded of the Monty Python Black Knight. Anyways, I'm quite content stuck in my practice, but definitely not free. I can tell this, that I am not free, from the ever present desire to crack skulls. I'm still masticating the idea that thoughts can run their course without troubling the landscape. When I have a thought, if it registers, the gap between the thinker and the thought dissipates and I'm prone to follow its lead without recourse. Zd talks about thoughts losing their stickiness. I'm convinced he means well, but is hallucinating. I'm open to the notion though. How about sn analogy? A hint? How does this work? Is weed helpful? Ha… it’s healthy to let off some steam. I don’t know about enlightenment or self-realisation - they seem quite mythic to me - all I can honestly report is of a ‘shift in perception’ that occurred 22 years ago where it was seen beyond any doubt that Reality is not two. I haven’t been able to shake that sensibility since then - although its intensity seems to fluctuate. It’s not a great blissful attainment or anything - I slip into old ways. But it comes with a built in resolution that whatever is arising - old ways, agitation, irritation, boredom or whatever is simply that too. That’s very powerful realisation. But it has to be a realisation - I can see that as a thought or intellectual understanding it would just be another attractive idea. If it’s blissful states and freedom from stress that’s desired then I would recommend meditation, stillness, solitude etc. I’ve found that blissful states are simply related to the thinning out of thought. That’s all. There’s no big blissful panacea to be attained. To the extent that there is a shift into a clear seeing of the obvious, thought thins out - the past and future recede - and agitation diminishes accordingly. So no, I wouldn’t demonise thinking - I always maintain that thought has its place. I’m not against practice either. Practice will happen until there’s no need to practice - and then it might continue anyway as it can be an enjoyable dive into a space where thinking completely dissolves (I meditate everyday without fail.) It’s world denying practices and attitudes that I question. Weed never agreed with me. I like a drink at the weekend but I’m quite well disciplined these days, I didn’t used to be - I’ve got scars to prove it. Have you ever questioned whether or not there's something more to realize because of some of the more negative states you might fall into from time to time? I can ( very directly) relate to much of what you wrote, and have questioned this myself. I've also noticed other people writing about a similar state of mind - as in this same question, and some of them seem to me to have fixated on the possibility of some sort of perfected state despite having had significant existential realization.
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Post by laughter on Sept 15, 2021 4:34:32 GMT -5
A color you've never seen. A melody you've never heard. A flavor you've never tasted.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2021 4:50:12 GMT -5
A color you've never seen. A melody you've never heard. A flavor you've never tasted. Being attached to intellectual-babble one can stay out of body and not ever come to grips with pain physical or emotional; even think they're enlightened. This type of enlightenment can go on for years. Being with dying-folk we get to see awakening at the last minute. Many of the dying say, "Omg, what I have done."
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Post by zendancer on Sept 15, 2021 5:55:06 GMT -5
You keep misspelling my screen name, I believe you do it on purpose. I dislike it. Regarding zendancer's beliefs ... This exchange started from "his seeing here and now" (paraphrased), which implies an objective reality, to which I expressed my disagreement. He won't accept my observation from principle, and will try to drown me with words and concepts that mostly mean nothing, at least to me. So as in the past we reached an impasse again, which we call impasse in communication, but it is something else. It's not on purpose, it's just that I'm about the opposite of anally retentive as a person can be. "Here and now" is not a reference to an objective reality, that is your misinterpretation. Correct. And when I wrote that what's here and now in front of our eyes is NOT abstract, that also was NOT pointing to an objective reality. What's "here and now" is non-dual, cannot be imagined or described, but can be known directly. What's "here and now" is neither abstract nor not abstract, neither objective nor subjective, etc. It is what it is. This is a standard kind of koan in Zen. I can imagine a Zen teacher asking a student, "What is always here and now?" What kind of answer would show the teacher that the student understands?
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Xiao
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Post by Xiao on Sept 15, 2021 6:40:03 GMT -5
It's not on purpose, it's just that I'm about the opposite of anally retentive as a person can be. "Here and now" is not a reference to an objective reality, that is your misinterpretation. Correct. And when I wrote that what's here and now in front of our eyes is NOT abstract, that also was NOT pointing to an objective reality. What's "here and now" is non-dual, cannot be imagined or described, but can be known directly. What's "here and now" is neither abstract nor not abstract, neither objective nor subjective, etc. It is what it is. This is a standard kind of koan in Zen. I can imagine a Zen teacher asking a student, "What is always here and now?" What kind of answer would show the teacher that the student understands? palms held up in a non-verbal gesture of "this" always feels like the right response
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Post by zendancer on Sept 15, 2021 6:41:51 GMT -5
[/quote]
(SDP) What I think I've heard from people here over the years is one can't come to truth through experience. I don't understand these realizations show what isn't true. I'd rather discover what's not true by finding out what IS true.
I understand the ND world. All I can say is, so what?
As analogy, for physicists 96% of the universe is missing. The 96% consists of dark matter and dark energy which physicists know virtually nothing about. The approximately 4% is the Periodic Table/matter and energy, multiple galaxies and quantum fields, etc. I figure the most I know about anything is like the 4%. But I know what attention is and awareness and consciousness, and I know these are the way forward, and only these. Yes, I talk about maps sometimes, but I know the maps have been made by those who have been to the territory. In my tradition there are what's called deliberate inexactitudes, or the law of otherwise. There are deliberate falsehoods in the teaching, they're there to find and not-teach. This is a guard against mere knowledge, understanding supersedes knowledge/maps. Over 40% (that's a guess) of Beelzebub's Tales (1238 pages) is pure crap nonsense/misleading, wild goose chases and dead ends. Artificial "deserts" are created as obstacles to be gotten through. And the truth therein is made very difficult to understand. And Gurdjieff lived in such a manner that nobody could make him an idol/icon, only the teaching is important, not him. He made it clear that he didn't invent the teaching, he just passed on to others what he was taught. I understand Socrates completely, "If I am wise, it's because I know I know nothing" (not saying I'm wise).
That's all I've got right now... [/quote]
1. Yes, many posters on this forum have said that one can't come to truth through experiences, but not all. Reefs and I have pointed out that CC's, or kenshos in Zen terminology, are not experiences in the usual sense of the word because there is no separate experiencer having an experience, and CC's can result in one or more significant realizations and a major shift in the way that the nature of reality is understood. In the Buddha's case, he appears to have had only one big CC, and it seems to have totally ended his search for the truth. That's rare, but he was apparently a rather rare human.
I used to argue with Enigma about this issue a great deal because a single CC resulted in several major realizations and answered at least 7 of my existential questions. I also used to argue that a realization could be looked at in two different ways, either revealing what is NOT so or revealing what IS so. One significant realization that is triggered by a CC can be stated as, "Reality is NOT what I thought it was." The same realization can be stated differently as, "Reality is an incomprehensibly intelligent, unified, infinite, aware, alive, whole." IOW, such a realization can shake one free of the usual dualistic mindset that imagines the world as if it were composed of separate things/objects seen by a separate see-er. Time and space are then realized to be abstract cognitive grids that are totally imaginary. Finally, such an event can completely eliminate the fear of death because it is seen, directly, that the Whole is unborn and undying, and that humans are an insignificant appearance within the Whole.
2. If you say that you understand the ND world and then say, "So what?" it is clear that you do NOT understand the ND world.
3. Your final paragraph is representative of the consensus paradigm in spades. If you left all of that thinking behind, and stayed in an unknowing state of mind while contemplating the question, "What's the absolute truth?" or "What's going on, really?" you would be much more likely to discover what all of the sages throughout history have been pointing to. JMO
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Post by zendancer on Sept 15, 2021 6:44:01 GMT -5
Correct. And when I wrote that what's here and now in front of our eyes is NOT abstract, that also was NOT pointing to an objective reality. What's "here and now" is non-dual, cannot be imagined or described, but can be known directly. What's "here and now" is neither abstract nor not abstract, neither objective nor subjective, etc. It is what it is. This is a standard kind of koan in Zen. I can imagine a Zen teacher asking a student, "What is always here and now?" What kind of answer would show the teacher that the student understands? palms held up in a non-verbal gesture of "this" always feels like the right response Look for a PM.
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Post by shadowplay on Sept 15, 2021 8:22:49 GMT -5
Ha… it’s healthy to let off some steam. I don’t know about enlightenment or self-realisation - they seem quite mythic to me - all I can honestly report is of a ‘shift in perception’ that occurred 22 years ago where it was seen beyond any doubt that Reality is not two. I haven’t been able to shake that sensibility since then - although its intensity seems to fluctuate. It’s not a great blissful attainment or anything - I slip into old ways. But it comes with a built in resolution that whatever is arising - old ways, agitation, irritation, boredom or whatever is simply that too. That’s very powerful realisation. But it has to be a realisation - I can see that as a thought or intellectual understanding it would just be another attractive idea. If it’s blissful states and freedom from stress that’s desired then I would recommend meditation, stillness, solitude etc. I’ve found that blissful states are simply related to the thinning out of thought. That’s all. There’s no big blissful panacea to be attained. To the extent that there is a shift into a clear seeing of the obvious, thought thins out - the past and future recede - and agitation diminishes accordingly. So no, I wouldn’t demonise thinking - I always maintain that thought has its place. I’m not against practice either. Practice will happen until there’s no need to practice - and then it might continue anyway as it can be an enjoyable dive into a space where thinking completely dissolves (I meditate everyday without fail.) It’s world denying practices and attitudes that I question. Weed never agreed with me. I like a drink at the weekend but I’m quite well disciplined these days, I didn’t used to be - I’ve got scars to prove it. Have you ever questioned whether or not there's something more to realize because of some of the more negative states you might fall into from time to time? I can ( very directly) relate to much of what you wrote, and have questioned this myself. I've also noticed other people writing about a similar state of mind - as in this same question, and some of them seem to me to have fixated on the possibility of some sort of perfected state despite having had significant existential realization. It’s a good question. All I can say is that not two is pretty decisive and fundamental. But the rest, the implications of it, how it appears in the world, what it all means etc. is a kind of an ongoing work in progress. So yes, there is always more to realise. As to the implication of a perfected human state - it almost seems a contradiction in terms. I would ask these people (or yourself, if you like) if they believe that there is an inherently existing owner of arising and passing negative states - or can it be seen that they are simply part of the passing landscape.
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Post by shadowplay on Sept 15, 2021 8:38:46 GMT -5
It's not on purpose, it's just that I'm about the opposite of anally retentive as a person can be. "Here and now" is not a reference to an objective reality, that is your misinterpretation. Correct. And when I wrote that what's here and now in front of our eyes is NOT abstract, that also was NOT pointing to an objective reality. What's "here and now" is non-dual, cannot be imagined or described, but can be known directly. What's "here and now" is neither abstract nor not abstract, neither objective nor subjective, etc. It is what it is. This is a standard kind of koan in Zen. I can imagine a Zen teacher asking a student, "What is always here and now?" What kind of answer would show the teacher that the student understands? Yes. And the THIS pointer works on a couple of levels.
Everybody reading this right now imagine Elvis riding a pink elephant - go on… Now - BANG - wake up from that fantasy and look at your left hand - there it is, four fingers and a thumb.
There is a huge qualitative difference between these two states. 99.999% of people would acknowledge this difference. The tiny percentage who claim there isn’t a difference are either in denial or have a serious mental affliction - and I don’t say that lightly.
So we can wake up FROM a fantasy, daydream, narrative in the head, lost in memory, lost in imagination etc. TO the real-time present actuality of the moment - THIS - as it is. We all can discern that important distinction. This awakening to NOW or THIS or IS forms the basis of any form of spiritual breakthrough - this has been acknowledged throughout spiritual history.
But it goes deeper. Back to the left hand…
If we sit with the hand or the breath or a sound or a candle or whatever we can start to notice something remarkable.
With diligence it can be seen that the hand (or the breath or a sound) is not unchanging. Slowly (or rapidly) it is undergoing transformation - it is not static or fixed. Also if we look hard enough it can be discerned that it is not in any way separate, independent or inherently existing - it doesn’t exist on its own side - it has no own being.
It’s here where it can become clear that the forms that appear only arise contingently - and apparently. They are expressions of a more fundamental, underlying, primordial principle.
Now here is where contemplation, analysis and logic completely come to an end and a deep seeing can arise. This is where the realisation of the unborn nature of Reality can reveal itself.
This Unborn or Being or Nothingness or Dharmakaya or Tao or Spirit or God or Reality or Source is not other than the very THIS-ness of this moment. THIS is Reality. THIS is Source. THIS is the Unborn… as it is.
There’s ONLY THIS - however it appears.
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