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Post by stardustpilgrim on Mar 1, 2022 8:23:03 GMT -5
Sure, the name apple is just an abstraction. But the thing itself exists. (But in no way in and of itself. [The thing came from a seed-thing which came from a tree-thing which, ultimately, can't exist without a sun-star-thing...etc]. There is a web-thing of every-thing existing. No thing exists in and of itself). You can't take a bite out of some-thing that doesn't exist. Yes, a name is an abstraction, but so is the idea of thingness, as well as the idea of existence. Seeing through the illusion of thingness and separateness of any kind is what Zen calls "passing through the gateless gate." We do not see things; we see what can be pointed to with the word "isness." Thingness is imagined; what isness is is not imagined. But we can't live on the second mountain, we move on to 3rd mountain. (1 + 2 = 3)
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Post by zazeniac on Mar 1, 2022 11:25:31 GMT -5
I'm with the acausal, no objects lot. DeBroglie's equation tipped the scale for me. And Einstein's relativity. Time dilation is a clear indicator that somethings amiss with this whole scheme of how and what we perceive. Spooky action at a distance indeed. But it has no relevance to actual living (caring for kids, walking dogs, cleaning bird cages,etc) and those who claim it does are demonstrably hypocrits. Taking offense to my last statement proves my point.
The same thing goes with the "life is a dream" lot. I can easily prove that when the nitty meets the gritty, you're just talking poop. Now I talk poop with the best of them. As I am doing now. Talk poop. Thought poop. No difference. Speech pours out like thought and poop. It's all good.
That's why the best advice is "fetch wood, carry water" so that it's the most important thing you could ever do, because it is. Which is the gist of what old chap is saying.
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Post by zendancer on Mar 1, 2022 13:55:20 GMT -5
I'm with the acausal, no objects lot. DeBroglie's equation tipped the scale for me. And Einstein's relativity. Time dilation is a clear indicator that somethings amiss with this whole scheme of how and what we perceive. Spooky action at a distance indeed. But it has no relevance to actual living (caring for kids, walking dogs, cleaning bird cages,etc) and those who claim it does are demonstrably hypocrits. Taking offense to my last statement proves my point. The same thing goes with the "life is a dream" lot. I can easily prove that when the nitty meets the gritty, you're just talking poop. Now I talk poop with the best of them. As I am doing now. Talk poop. Thought poop. No difference. Speech pours out like thought and poop. It's all good. That's why the best advice is "fetch wood, carry water" so that it's the most important thing you could ever do, because it is. Which is the gist of what old chap is saying. Lots of stuff to discuss here, but there are at least a few things worth pointing out even if the rest is ignored: "Spooky action at a distance" is just another term for non-locality, and I suspect that many people on this forum have experienced non-locality at one time or another. A condensation of what "spooky action at a distance" is pointing to is the fact that oneness is the case, and there is no separateness of any kind except in imagination. Oldchap wrote: "....some say they are at oneness with the universe/God/Source. Good they feel that way, but if they are truly at oneness, they would disappear because they would no longer be in a human physical form." That's a very strange idea, to say the least. For people who have discovered the unity of THIS/Reality/Source it becomes apparent that whatever happens is the unfolding of THIS, and there is no actor separate from the whole. Scott Kiloby has written about this rather elegantly, and he points beyond awakening to "embodiment." Embodiment is the felt sense of unity with "what is" that becomes one's sense of ordinary life after realization has seeped "into one's bones" so to speak. Here's Scott: "In seeing that the separate self is an illusion, the center falls away. When the center falls away, there is still the sense of a body. There is still the experiencing of states, emotions, thoughts, and individual events. There is still the personality and individual skills and attributes. But it no longer feels as if you are the center of life. When the center goes, the separation, struggle, conflict, and searching go with it. Even if self-centered thoughts arise, they are seen as empty. There is no longer identification with a totally separate "me." There is a seeing that your real identity is something much larger than the individual body and the dream self you mistakenly took yourself to be. There are many words for this 'something larger' including God, Brahman, Tao, reality, or oneness. The word is not the thing it describes. It could just as easily be called THIS. It is not a concept." Whether one is walking the dog, cleaning bird cages, carrying water, or chopping firewood, if there is no center, then those actions happen without the actor that was imagined in the past as "me." The sense of unity that then pervades all activity can be pointed to with words, but it cannot be grasped with words or thoughts.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Mar 1, 2022 15:21:59 GMT -5
I'm with the acausal, no objects lot. DeBroglie's equation tipped the scale for me. And Einstein's relativity. Time dilation is a clear indicator that somethings amiss with this whole scheme of how and what we perceive. Spooky action at a distance indeed. But it has no relevance to actual living (caring for kids, walking dogs, cleaning bird cages,etc) and those who claim it does are demonstrably hypocrits. Taking offense to my last statement proves my point. The same thing goes with the "life is a dream" lot. I can easily prove that when the nitty meets the gritty, you're just talking poop. Now I talk poop with the best of them. As I am doing now. Talk poop. Thought poop. No difference. Speech pours out like thought and poop. It's all good. That's why the best advice is "fetch wood, carry water" so that it's the most important thing you could ever do, because it is. Which is the gist of what old chap is saying. Yes, correct, bingo, we live in a classical world.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Mar 1, 2022 15:57:00 GMT -5
Lao Tzu said One became two and two became three and the three became the 10,000 things (everything seen or otherwise measurable).
Yes, originally One. Nondual Oneness became yin and yang, positive force and negative force (in the sense of polarity, not in the sense of bad or evil). And the 3rd is a pivotal something which yin and yang revolve around, it keeps them joined, it's catalyzing-neutralizing unseen force. A pendulum swings, from yin to yang and from yang to yin, because it is attached to an unmoving central point. "Thirty spokes has a wheel, it's the empty center which it revolves around". (Also Lao Tzu)
I'm with zazeniac. But yes, there is first mountain (duality, mountains are mountains), second mountain (nonduality, mountains are no longer mountains), third mountain (living in-the-world of duality but ATST nonduality, mountains are mountains but ATST not-mountains). I don't think you can deny that 3rd mountain is. The 10,000 things, first mountain, are combinations of triads (yin, yang, pivot/fulcrum) upon triads upon triads X x.
The quantum world (nonlocality) is somehow the basis of the Classical world. The Classical world both is and is not the quantum world.
Can the quantum nonlocal world sometimes manifest in the Classical world? Absolutely, synchronicity (acausal connection) an example.
One old writer put it, the things seen are made-from (no)things not-seen.
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Post by zendancer on Mar 1, 2022 16:41:57 GMT -5
Thingness is a very tough illusion to penetrate, but to get to third mountain both the illusion of thingness and the illusion of selfhood must be seen through. THIS has no parts, and it is not composed of separate things. THIS is alive and unified, and there are many simple thought experiments that can help this to be intellectually understood even if it can't yet be felt in one's bones. THIS is both the observer and the observed, and that's why many scientists now describe the universe as "self aware."
If we look at the world like the lens of a camera, we see an undivided field of being. We can imagine the field of being to be composed of separate objects, but if we search for the boundaries that divide any single thing from any other thing, we will never find them because they're all imaginary. They exist only as products of imagination. Niz once said to a seeker: "You see the ultimate, but you imagine trees and clouds." It might have been clearer if he had said, "You see the ultimate, but you imagine the 10,000 things."
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Post by laughter on Mar 2, 2022 13:20:58 GMT -5
Thingness is a very tough illusion to penetrate, but to get to third mountain both the illusion of thingness and the illusion of selfhood must be seen through. THIS has no parts, and it is not composed of separate things. THIS is alive and unified, and there are many simple thought experiments that can help this to be intellectually understood even if it can't yet be felt in one's bones. THIS is both the observer and the observed, and that's why many scientists now describe the universe as "self aware." If we look at the world like the lens of a camera, we see an undivided field of being. We can imagine the field of being to be composed of separate objects, but if we search for the boundaries that divide any single thing from any other thing, we will never find them because they're all imaginary. They exist only as products of imagination. Niz once said to a seeker: "You see the ultimate, but you imagine trees and clouds." It might have been clearer if he had said, "You see the ultimate, but you imagine the 10,000 things." Well said ZD. I can understand why you'd say that seeing through thingness is tough. On the other hand, it can be as easy as relaxing into a cool mountain lake on a hot sunny day. Or, as fun as chasing the wind down a cruiser on a pair of ski's. And let's not forget that all those imaginary boundaries can be thought of as "edges", and there's that old saying .. "to take the edge off".
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Post by zendancer on Mar 2, 2022 13:50:54 GMT -5
Thingness is a very tough illusion to penetrate, but to get to third mountain both the illusion of thingness and the illusion of selfhood must be seen through. THIS has no parts, and it is not composed of separate things. THIS is alive and unified, and there are many simple thought experiments that can help this to be intellectually understood even if it can't yet be felt in one's bones. THIS is both the observer and the observed, and that's why many scientists now describe the universe as "self aware." If we look at the world like the lens of a camera, we see an undivided field of being. We can imagine the field of being to be composed of separate objects, but if we search for the boundaries that divide any single thing from any other thing, we will never find them because they're all imaginary. They exist only as products of imagination. Niz once said to a seeker: "You see the ultimate, but you imagine trees and clouds." It might have been clearer if he had said, "You see the ultimate, but you imagine the 10,000 things." Well said ZD. I can understand why you'd say that seeing through thingness is tough. On the other hand, it can be as easy as relaxing into a cool mountain lake on a hot sunny day. Or, as fun as chasing the wind down a cruiser on a pair of ski's. And let's not forget that all those imaginary boundaries can be thought of as "edges", and there's that old saying .. "to take the edge off". Or in skiing, "Don't catch an edge."
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Post by laughter on Mar 3, 2022 5:44:20 GMT -5
Well said ZD. I can understand why you'd say that seeing through thingness is tough. On the other hand, it can be as easy as relaxing into a cool mountain lake on a hot sunny day. Or, as fun as chasing the wind down a cruiser on a pair of ski's. And let's not forget that all those imaginary boundaries can be thought of as "edges", and there's that old saying .. "to take the edge off". Or in skiing, "Don't catch an edge."
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Post by laughter on Mar 3, 2022 5:46:21 GMT -5
Yes, a name is an abstraction, but so is the idea of thingness, as well as the idea of existence. Seeing through the illusion of thingness and separateness of any kind is what Zen calls "passing through the gateless gate." We do not see things; we see what can be pointed to with the word "isness." Thingness is imagined; what isness is is not imagined. But we can't live on the second mountain, we move on to 3rd mountain. (1 + 2 = 3) Without the illusion that buts or apples are anything other than a convenience of a sort.
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Post by zazeniac on Mar 3, 2022 13:35:54 GMT -5
But we can't live on the second mountain, we move on to 3rd mountain. (1 + 2 = 3) Without the illusion that buts or apples are anything other than a convenience of a sort. Yeah, right. Now you look forward to those yearly prostate probes. 😁
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Post by laughter on Mar 4, 2022 8:00:39 GMT -5
Without the illusion that buts or apples are anything other than a convenience of a sort. Yeah, right. Now you look forward to those yearly prostate probes. 😁 funny funny. I should just leave this with a quip about the longitudinal lines of Uranus, and the rest of this is definitely TMTalk, butt... You may or may not have noticed that this is a topic that constantly recurs in some of the higher-velocity-higher-volume dialogs on the forums about "separation". The bottom line is: "distinction isn't separation". Which is just another way to state the map/territory pointer, although free of the metaphor, and some of the dialogs can actually get quite subtle. Often these dialogs segue to the distinction between pain and suffering, and just as often turn into competitive inner peace. The dialogs here of late - like this one - seem to me to be never far away from the crux of the "great matter". Sensation happens, and penetrating (tee hee) the illusions of thingness or personhood don't end those sensations or their nature. You don't walk in front of a bus or feed your dog instead of yourself when you're hungry or stop using your name or claim you don't owe taxes because you don't exist or stick your hand in an open flame for kicks ("heh heh"). But it all happens so very differently. The bottom line is that "what is this sensation? what is the source of it? who is it happening to?" is as on the edge, as it gets.
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Post by lolly on Mar 6, 2022 1:01:29 GMT -5
Yeah, right. Now you look forward to those yearly prostate probes. 😁 funny funny. I should just leave this with a quip about the longitudinal lines of Uranus, and the rest of this is definitely TMTalk, butt... You may or may not have noticed that this is a topic that constantly recurs in some of the higher-velocity-higher-volume dialogs on the forums about "separation". The bottom line is: "distinction isn't separation". Which is just another way to state the map/territory pointer, although free of the metaphor, and some of the dialogs can actually get quite subtle. Often these dialogs segue to the distinction between pain and suffering, and just as often turn into competitive inner peace. The dialogs here of late - like this one - seem to me to be never far away from the crux of the "great matter". Sensation happens, and penetrating (tee hee) the illusions of thingness or personhood don't end those sensations or their nature. You don't walk in front of a bus or feed your dog instead of yourself when you're hungry or stop using your name or claim you don't owe taxes because you don't exist or stick your hand in an open flame for kicks ("heh heh"). But it all happens so very differently. The bottom line is that "what is this sensation? what is the source of it? who is it happening to?" is as on the edge, as it gets. Nicely timed post (00:00 here)
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