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Post by Reefs on Feb 18, 2022 22:19:23 GMT -5
A zen story...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2022 9:41:21 GMT -5
Wow. A level of delusional arrogance that is comical, or disturbing - I can't decide. In the realm of ND this is quite common. Unlike Zen, which has a methodology for bringing people back down to earth and shaking them free of delusion, Advaita Vedanta has nothing equivalent to that. In fact, to become sanctioned to teach in the Zen tradition, people are subjected to public questioning by a group of peers, and only if they can satisfactorily respond to the questioning, are they allowed to function as teachers. Even then, their understanding must be sanctioned by two other Zen Masters before they can become recognized as Zen Masters, themselves. The case of Hakuin is instructive in the this regard. Hakuin had a big CC and went to his master for acknowledgement. His master, however, simply laughed at him. Hakuin couldn't believe that his understanding hadn't been authenticated, but he continued to meditate, and had another big CC. When he went to his master again and presented his deeper understanding, his master knocked him off the porch of the zendo into the mud and couldn't stop laughing. From that point onward he called Hakuin "that poor hole-dwelling devil." Hakuin had several more realizations, and at a certain point his understanding became sufficiently deep that his master quit laughing at him. Nevertheless, it took Hakuin several more years to fully appreciate the depth of his master. [...] Even with that system, I've run into some Zen groups that seemed to have gone off track into shallow partisan political stuff. But I didn't look deeply into it; maybe their teacher was not certified. I suppose it's an inevitable part of the game.
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Post by zendancer on Feb 19, 2022 10:30:20 GMT -5
In the realm of ND this is quite common. Unlike Zen, which has a methodology for bringing people back down to earth and shaking them free of delusion, Advaita Vedanta has nothing equivalent to that. In fact, to become sanctioned to teach in the Zen tradition, people are subjected to public questioning by a group of peers, and only if they can satisfactorily respond to the questioning, are they allowed to function as teachers. Even then, their understanding must be sanctioned by two other Zen Masters before they can become recognized as Zen Masters, themselves. The case of Hakuin is instructive in the this regard. Hakuin had a big CC and went to his master for acknowledgement. His master, however, simply laughed at him. Hakuin couldn't believe that his understanding hadn't been authenticated, but he continued to meditate, and had another big CC. When he went to his master again and presented his deeper understanding, his master knocked him off the porch of the zendo into the mud and couldn't stop laughing. From that point onward he called Hakuin "that poor hole-dwelling devil." Hakuin had several more realizations, and at a certain point his understanding became sufficiently deep that his master quit laughing at him. Nevertheless, it took Hakuin several more years to fully appreciate the depth of his master. [...] Even with that system, I've run into some Zen groups that seemed to have gone off track into shallow partisan political stuff. But I didn't look deeply into it; maybe their teacher was not certified. I suppose it's an inevitable part of the game. I agree, and one reason that I left that tradition was the rigidity, formality, coldness, and attachment to outdated forms. My point was that in that system at least there is no self-sanctioning of one's understanding. There is some degree of peer review beyond even that of a single teacher. That system isn't foolproof, but at least it inhibits the kind of widespread self-promotion that can occur when there is no check or balance. In the Advaita tradition there have been several people who declared themselves to be enlightened without gaining any kind of acknowledgment either from peers or a teacher, and there have also been people who have identified themselves as teachers who have later realized for themselves that they were not yet "done" (Foster and others come to mind).
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Post by zazeniac on Feb 20, 2022 9:31:36 GMT -5
Even with that system, I've run into some Zen groups that seemed to have gone off track into shallow partisan political stuff. But I didn't look deeply into it; maybe their teacher was not certified. I suppose it's an inevitable part of the game. I agree, and one reason that I left that tradition was the rigidity, formality, coldness, and attachment to outdated forms. My point was that in that system at least there is no self-sanctioning of one's understanding. There is some degree of peer review beyond even that of a single teacher. That system isn't foolproof, but at least it inhibits the kind of widespread self-promotion that can occur when there is no check or balance. In the Advaita tradition there have been several people who declared themselves to be enlightened without gaining any kind of acknowledgment either from peers or a teacher, and there have also been people who have identified themselves as teachers who have later realized for themselves that they were not yet "done" (Foster and others come to mind). I'm with Merton in the view that you can extract Zen from it's cultural context. It's that context that gives it much of the rigidity and formality. There also seems to me a lot of parallels between Zen and Advaita a la Ramana. I'd say they point to the same thing. To me self-enquiry is to continuously redirect attention to the present, to what is, not what will be or was. Much like zazen's direction to refocus on the breath. Both seem to me to be ways of unlatching from the mental constraints. Now I also have an affinity for some so called neo-advaita teachers. They say and teach some things that are quite refreshing. What bothers me is this whole notion of "I'm enlightened and you're not because you don't agree with me." It seems the whole enlightenment shtick has turned to drivel because of it. The movement has become bs, cliches and platitudes. And everybody and their mother is now awakened. The way I look at is you can't be awakened if you sound just as confused as I do. So knock the crap off. Quit pretending. And it doesn't really matter. The only thing that matters is how you treat yourself and others. The rest is window dressing. It comes down to the golden rule.
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Xiao
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Post by Xiao on Feb 21, 2022 7:20:16 GMT -5
Seems to me that Roy's core point about people adding yet another layer between themselves and reality is a worthy existential contemplation, relatively speaking. There are people who actually believe we'll be able to "transfer our consciousness into electronic form", and there's the recent development of Zuck's "Metaverse". It's got to be frustrating for him in trying to relate this to people, especially people who he might have hoped would have the potential to understand what he was getting at. Everyone wants to be able to relate, after all. I may be wrong, but I don't think anyone who responded to Roy's postings had a problem with that particular issue. The issue that many of us disagreed with him about was his idea that there needed to be a total cessation of thinking and that the practice of silence was all that mattered. Based on his postings, he doesn't appear to have penetrated the illusion of selfhood much less penetrated the illusion of thingness. I agree with you, ZD, that this is certainly not all that matters, but I think for most humans it might be the most important thing, in the sense that most humans are not going to ever be interested in awakening. They will, however, benefit from mental silence either way. Many soto groups I've sat with over the years, for example, had dozens of individuals who made a habit out of going completely silent during the group sitting, but very few of them seemed to take that off the cushion and even consider something like ATA with the rest of their life. This seems to be precisely where the rigidity of the tradition and the adherence to the form of it all might actually hinder much more than help - the membrane keeping their time of silence separate from the rest of their life was too thick.
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Post by zendancer on Feb 21, 2022 12:36:07 GMT -5
I may be wrong, but I don't think anyone who responded to Roy's postings had a problem with that particular issue. The issue that many of us disagreed with him about was his idea that there needed to be a total cessation of thinking and that the practice of silence was all that mattered. Based on his postings, he doesn't appear to have penetrated the illusion of selfhood much less penetrated the illusion of thingness. I agree with you, ZD, that this is certainly not all that matters, but I think for most humans it might be the most important thing, in the sense that most humans are not going to ever be interested in awakening. They will, however, benefit from mental silence either way. Many soto groups I've sat with over the years, for example, had dozens of individuals who made a habit out of going completely silent during the group sitting, but very few of them seemed to take that off the cushion and even consider something like ATA with the rest of their life. This seems to be precisely where the rigidity of the tradition and the adherence to the form of it all might actually hinder much more than help - the membrane keeping their time of silence separate from the rest of their life was too thick. So true. If freedom, peace, and equanimity are not present in everyday life as a result of realization(s), then silence, alone, isn't worth much except from a health perspective.
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Post by oldchap on Feb 28, 2022 5:01:19 GMT -5
So say you have a bunch of apples. The apples exist as objects. You can count them out in various base number systems. How you count them (the abstraction) doesn't change the amount of apples in the bunch (the reality). Great film. Apples do not exist as objects unless one wants to imagine that they do. This is why a Zen koan is to hold up an apple and ask, "What is this?" If the student opens his/her mouth, s/he has already made a mistake. Many forum members seem to be well read and well educated in spirituality and philosophy, and some even have spiritual masters with very long names. As someone who has never been a student of any spiritual teachers and has never read any ancient spiritual text, I have a slightly different perspective about our reality. While many talk about reaching non-dual and enlightenment as ways to escape this reality, why not stay and enjoy the grandness and wonderments of this world including duality and all. If avoiding "suffering" is the sole reason for not wanting to return here, why not look into why there is hardships in our lives. Everything happens with purpose behind it. Nothing is ever random. coincidental, lucky, or unlucky. That said, why not search for the embedded personal lessons in the adversities we each encountered, learn from them, and gain greater wisdom and maturity in the process. And once we learned the lessons, they will not be repeated. With greater wisdom and maturity comes greater peace and calm in heart and mind as we begin to understand why things are unfolding the way they are. And more importantly, we begin to uncover who we truly are and why we are here. Then, what we earlier saw as suffering and adversities will now be seen as grateful and blessed lesson opportunities to gain further wisdom and maturity. A new mindset that cognizes our true magnificence, and no longer will we think of ourselves as victims born here to suffer. What an amazing adventure we passionately signed up for when on the other side of the Veil of Forgetfulness. An extremely challenging adventure of learning to grow up spiritually and finding ourselves while in human form here in this new young world that is on purpose at the infancy of spirituality. Interesting that some believe enlightenment will bring them a happier and more perfect life. Enlightenment is more about remaining more peaceful and calm when adversities strike. And could anyone truly claim to be fully enlightened when we are living in only a tiny fraction of the vast grand whole reality? There is so much more that we can not perceive yet with our rudimentary senses, and there is so more knowledge out there waiting for us to uncover. So enlightenment is a never ending process that spans many lifetimes here and beyond. Instead of looking hard for ways to end the cycle of birth and death to escape from this world, try instead to gain the wisdom and maturity not to have our buttons pressed so easily and enjoy this wonderful world that was created with our comfort in mind. Take in the beauty of a morning sunrise and a glorious warm sunset, calm our minds sitting still in the majestic Forest, and breathe in the refreshing cool morning air to rejuvenate. All made for our comfort while having our adventure. Whether an apple is an apple or not, or whether this reality is real of not doesn't matter. A part of us is here on purpose for this adventure. Relax and enjoy the exploring and experiencing. And death is not a bad thing. Death allows us to return in a new young healthy body to try new things or improve on what we had done in previous lifetimes. As we evolve spiritually and uncover who we truly are, we begin to return to our true divine nature of caring, kindness, compassion, benevolence, and joy. Meaning, we become more aware and shift to higher consciousness. In higher consciousness, we argue less and complain less because we start to shed our false nature that is the ego which knows not of gratitude, compassion, and love. Therein lies a hint as to why we are truly here. As we evolve spiritually to higher consciousness, we assist with bringing love and light to this new young dark barbaric world. It is bringing Heaven/Nirvana/etc to Earth. And when our bodies expire we return to our true home of unconditional love, compassion, and benevolence; and again we will choose to return to help make this world a better place. The expansion of love and light. Final thought, some say they are at oneness with the universe/God/Source. Good they feel that way, but if they are truly at oneness, they would disappear because they would no longer be in a human physical form. Too often we blindly regurgitate words and concepts that we had read or were taught by spiritual teachers. All the best!
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Post by zendancer on Feb 28, 2022 9:02:24 GMT -5
Apples do not exist as objects unless one wants to imagine that they do. This is why a Zen koan is to hold up an apple and ask, "What is this?" If the student opens his/her mouth, s/he has already made a mistake. Many forum members seem to be well read and well educated in spirituality and philosophy, and some even have spiritual masters with very long names. As someone who has never been a student of any spiritual teachers and has never read any ancient spiritual text, I have a slightly different perspective about our reality. While many talk about reaching non-dual and enlightenment as ways to escape this reality, why not stay and enjoy the grandness and wonderments of this world including duality and all. If avoiding "suffering" is the sole reason for not wanting to return here, why not look into why there is hardships in our lives. Everything happens with purpose behind it. Nothing is ever random. coincidental, lucky, or unlucky. That said, why not search for the embedded personal lessons in the adversities we each encountered, learn from them, and gain greater wisdom and maturity in the process. And once we learned the lessons, they will not be repeated. With greater wisdom and maturity comes greater peace and calm in heart and mind as we begin to understand why things are unfolding the way they are. And more importantly, we begin to uncover who we truly are and why we are here. Then, what we earlier saw as suffering and adversities will now be seen as grateful and blessed lesson opportunities to gain further wisdom and maturity. A new mindset that cognizes our true magnificence, and no longer will we think of ourselves as victims born here to suffer. What an amazing adventure we passionately signed up for when on the other side of the Veil of Forgetfulness. An extremely challenging adventure of learning to grow up spiritually and finding ourselves while in human form here in this new young world that is on purpose at the infancy of spirituality. Interesting that some believe enlightenment will bring them a happier and more perfect life. Enlightenment is more about remaining more peaceful and calm when adversities strike. And could anyone truly claim to be fully enlightened when we are living in only a tiny fraction of the vast grand whole reality? There is so much more that we can not perceive yet with our rudimentary senses, and there is so more knowledge out there waiting for us to uncover. So enlightenment is a never ending process that spans many lifetimes here and beyond. Instead of looking hard for ways to end the cycle of birth and death to escape from this world, try instead to gain the wisdom and maturity not to have our buttons pressed so easily and enjoy this wonderful world that was created with our comfort in mind. Take in the beauty of a morning sunrise and a glorious warm sunset, calm our minds sitting still in the majestic Forest, and breathe in the refreshing cool morning air to rejuvenate. All made for our comfort while having our adventure. Whether an apple is an apple or not, or whether this reality is real of not doesn't matter. A part of us is here on purpose for this adventure. Relax and enjoy the exploring and experiencing. And death is not a bad thing. Death allows us to return in a new young healthy body to try new things or improve on what we had done in previous lifetimes. As we evolve spiritually and uncover who we truly are, we begin to return to our true divine nature of caring, kindness, compassion, benevolence, and joy. Meaning, we become more aware and shift to higher consciousness. In higher consciousness, we argue less and complain less because we start to shed our false nature that is the ego which knows not of gratitude, compassion, and love. Therein lies a hint as to why we are truly here. As we evolve spiritually to higher consciousness, we assist with bringing love and light to this new young dark barbaric world. It is bringing Heaven/Nirvana/etc to Earth. And when our bodies expire we return to our true home of unconditional love, compassion, and benevolence; and again we will choose to return to help make this world a better place. The expansion of love and light. Final thought, some say they are at oneness with the universe/God/Source. Good they feel that way, but if they are truly at oneness, they would disappear because they would no longer be in a human physical form. Too often we blindly regurgitate words and concepts that we had read or were taught by spiritual teachers. All the best! Just to be clear, the search for truth has nothing to do with escaping from reality; it is solely concerned with discovering the true nature of reality and discovering how thoughts obscure that which cannot be imagined or captured in words, ideas, or beliefs. What would happen if every idea contained in this posting was thrown away? What would remain?
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Post by maxdprophet on Feb 28, 2022 10:13:50 GMT -5
So say you have a bunch of apples. The apples exist as objects. You can count them out in various base number systems. How you count them (the abstraction) doesn't change the amount of apples in the bunch (the reality). Great film. Apples do not exist as objects unless one wants to imagine that they do. This is why a Zen koan is to hold up an apple and ask, "What is this?" If the student opens his/her mouth, s/he has already made a mistake. Quibble: opening the mouth and taking a bite of the apple would be a perfect answer, right?
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Post by zendancer on Feb 28, 2022 10:36:04 GMT -5
Apples do not exist as objects unless one wants to imagine that they do. This is why a Zen koan is to hold up an apple and ask, "What is this?" If the student opens his/her mouth, s/he has already made a mistake. Quibble: opening the mouth and taking a bite of the apple would be a perfect answer, right? Yes.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 28, 2022 12:58:06 GMT -5
Apples do not exist as objects unless one wants to imagine that they do. This is why a Zen koan is to hold up an apple and ask, "What is this?" If the student opens his/her mouth, s/he has already made a mistake. Quibble: opening the mouth and taking a bite of the apple would be a perfect answer, right? Sure, the name apple is just an abstraction. But the thing itself exists. (But in no way in and of itself. [The thing came from a seed-thing which came from a tree-thing which, ultimately, can't exist without a sun-star-thing...etc]. There is a web-thing of every-thing existing. No thing exists in and of itself). You can't take a bite out of some-thing that doesn't exist.
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Post by maxdprophet on Feb 28, 2022 13:25:26 GMT -5
Quibble: opening the mouth and taking a bite of the apple would be a perfect answer, right? Sure, the name apple is just an abstraction. But the thing itself exists. (But in no way in and of itself. [The thing came from a seed-thing which came from a tree-thing which, ultimately, can't exist without a sun-star-thing...etc]. There is a web-thing of every-thing existing. No thing exists in and of itself). You can't take a bite out of some-thing that doesn't exist. To confirm: I remain an ignoramous. All I know, stardustpilgrim, is, I like your handle. And this comes to mind: To properly tie the Gordian knot, first take a bite of rope.... You may be lucky if the rope is a snake And will take a bite of you. If you objected about taking bites out of nonexistent some-things, the master would aim the apple at your head. And, hopefully, massaging the bump forming on your skull while sitting in the mud, you'd join in the ensuing hilarity and laughter. Else, continuing to fiddle with the Gordian knot until exhaustion or death do us part.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 28, 2022 13:45:30 GMT -5
Apples do not exist as objects unless one wants to imagine that they do. This is why a Zen koan is to hold up an apple and ask, "What is this?" If the student opens his/her mouth, s/he has already made a mistake. Many forum members seem to be well read and well educated in spirituality and philosophy, and some even have spiritual masters with very long names. As someone who has never been a student of any spiritual teachers and has never read any ancient spiritual text, I have a slightly different perspective about our reality. While many talk about reaching non-dual and enlightenment as ways to escape this reality, why not stay and enjoy the grandness and wonderments of this world including duality and all. If avoiding "suffering" is the sole reason for not wanting to return here, why not look into why there is hardships in our lives. Everything happens with purpose behind it. Nothing is ever random. coincidental, lucky, or unlucky.That said, why not search for the embedded personal lessons in the adversities we each encountered, learn from them, and gain greater wisdom and maturity in the process. And once we learned the lessons, they will not be repeated. With greater wisdom and maturity comes greater peace and calm in heart and mind as we begin to understand why things are unfolding the way they are. And more importantly, we begin to uncover who we truly are and why we are here. Then, what we earlier saw as suffering and adversities will now be seen as grateful and blessed lesson opportunities to gain further wisdom and maturity. A new mindset that cognizes our true magnificence, and no longer will we think of ourselves as victims born here to suffer. What an amazing adventure we passionately signed up for when on the other side of the Veil of Forgetfulness. An extremely challenging adventure of learning to grow up spiritually and finding ourselves while in human form here in this new young world that is on purpose at the infancy of spirituality. Interesting that some believe enlightenment will bring them a happier and more perfect life. Enlightenment is more about remaining more peaceful and calm when adversities strike. And could anyone truly claim to be fully enlightened when we are living in only a tiny fraction of the vast grand whole reality? There is so much more that we can not perceive yet with our rudimentary senses, and there is so more knowledge out there waiting for us to uncover. So enlightenment is a never ending process that spans many lifetimes here and beyond. Instead of looking hard for ways to end the cycle of birth and death to escape from this world, try instead to gain the wisdom and maturity not to have our buttons pressed so easily and enjoy this wonderful world that was created with our comfort in mind. Take in the beauty of a morning sunrise and a glorious warm sunset, calm our minds sitting still in the majestic Forest, and breathe in the refreshing cool morning air to rejuvenate. All made for our comfort while having our adventure. Whether an apple is an apple or not, or whether this reality is real of not doesn't matter. A part of us is here on purpose for this adventure. Relax and enjoy the exploring and experiencing. And death is not a bad thing. Death allows us to return in a new young healthy body to try new things or improve on what we had done in previous lifetimes. As we evolve spiritually and uncover who we truly are, we begin to return to our true divine nature of caring, kindness, compassion, benevolence, and joy. Meaning, we become more aware and shift to higher consciousness. In higher consciousness, we argue less and complain less because we start to shed our false nature that is the ego which knows not of gratitude, compassion, and love. Therein lies a hint as to why we are truly here. As we evolve spiritually to higher consciousness, we assist with bringing love and light to this new young dark barbaric world. It is bringing Heaven/Nirvana/etc to Earth. And when our bodies expire we return to our true home of unconditional love, compassion, and benevolence; and again we will choose to return to help make this world a better place. The expansion of love and light. Final thought, some say they are at oneness with the universe/God/Source. Good they feel that way, but if they are truly at oneness, they would disappear because they would no longer be in a human physical form. Too often we blindly regurgitate words and concepts that we had read or were taught by spiritual teachers. All the best! Not every event has a cause, sometimes there is "collateral damage" from just a confluence of unintended consequences. At our level of reality there can-be a complicated web of events. And if everything had a cause then we would be locked into a deterministic universe without any hope of altering our lives or events. We have the possibility of a "cubic centimeter of chance" at any time, anywhere. But our only chance always involves ~attention to the moment~. This is not so easy to accomplish. Most of the time for 99.42% of people their attention is absorbed-in-to thoughts, feelings, sensations, bodily doing or people, places, things or events. This is what identification is. Attention-to is different from attention-caught-by. I have a little different view. (which is different from most other people here on ST's). ~We~` live on a continuum. Yes there is an aspect of our beingness that is divine, but that is not our identity. That's one end of the continuum, the "higher". The "lower" end is from the material level and this is what our "earth suit" is composed of. Neither is the body our identity. Our true identity is the result of the interaction of the two ends of the continuum. When we are born as a baby our true identity is a seed of potential arising-from the combination of the "higher" and the "lower". Most people never activate their seed of potential. In Hinduism this activation (without getting complicated) is called being twice-born. In (alchemical) Taoism this beginning of the "immortal" is called the embryo. ~~~~~~~~~~~~ I can appreciate most of what you have written here. The nondual view presented here disagrees with my view. The nondual view presents that there is no real distinction between the "higher" and the "lower". And it follows then that likewise there is no real distinction in the "middle" (the ~realm~ of what I'm calling the true self). The nondual claim is that there is not a self in any sense, that any sense of (separate) self is imaginary. It's complicated. I agree (with the nondual view), for 99.42% of people, in the sense that the true self is merely seed-potential, there is no self. But I disagree that there is no "middle" (individuated) true self, in an absolute/never sense. ~~~~~~~~~ ...
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 28, 2022 13:47:49 GMT -5
Sure, the name apple is just an abstraction. But the thing itself exists. (But in no way in and of itself. [The thing came from a seed-thing which came from a tree-thing which, ultimately, can't exist without a sun-star-thing...etc]. There is a web-thing of every-thing existing. No thing exists in and of itself). You can't take a bite out of some-thing that doesn't exist. To confirm: I remain an ignoramous. All I know, stardustpilgrim, is, I like your handle. And this comes to mind: To properly tie the Gordian knot, first take a bite of rope.... You may be lucky if the rope is a snake And will take a bite of you. If you objected about taking bites out of nonexistent some-things, the master would aim the apple at your head. And, hopefully, massaging the bump forming on your skull while sitting in the mud, you'd join in the ensuing hilarity and laughter. Else, continuing to fiddle with the Gordian knot until exhaustion or death do us part. ... ... likewise
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Post by zendancer on Feb 28, 2022 14:46:06 GMT -5
Quibble: opening the mouth and taking a bite of the apple would be a perfect answer, right? Sure, the name apple is just an abstraction. But the thing itself exists. (But in no way in and of itself. [The thing came from a seed-thing which came from a tree-thing which, ultimately, can't exist without a sun-star-thing...etc]. There is a web-thing of every-thing existing. No thing exists in and of itself). You can't take a bite out of some-thing that doesn't exist. Yes, a name is an abstraction, but so is the idea of thingness, as well as the idea of existence. Seeing through the illusion of thingness and separateness of any kind is what Zen calls "passing through the gateless gate." We do not see things; we see what can be pointed to with the word "isness." Thingness is imagined; what isness is is not imagined.
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