Xiao
Full Member
Posts: 184
|
Post by Xiao on Sept 20, 2021 7:10:45 GMT -5
I personally feel that the population explosion of the past few-hundred years is an important point to consider. When bringing this up to a Buddhist once, they countered with the rapid loss of wildlife and other species on earth. It seems silly to think that conception will only occur successfully when a soul is lined up and ready to inhabit the human, or that the loss of animal life throughout the world means that those souls may now be in human bodies. Alternate theories of course involve different realms or other planets with intelligent life, but I stick with Occam's razor on this one. It may have been a useful teaching tool or "skillful means" in the past, perhaps it still is for some folk, but it doesn't seem likely to be true. Well, in relative terms, it's not space nor renewable resource cycles that can or should constrain population levels. The downward pressures on population are actually all social, primarily a function of distribution. It does seem that the scale of humanity has gotten to the point where we are effecting the Earth, but there are far more species that have gone extinct - by many orders of magnitude - than are present today. The current world population would be completely unimaginable by the standards of even the 19th century much less the 18th or 17th, and, to my eye, the constant chicken-littling of the doom sayers (who constantly get proven wrong btw) is due to a poverty of imagination and a propensity to incorrectly project the present onto the future. That's my relative take. In absolute terms, any relation between this topic and the question of the source of souls for reincarnation is, ultimately, just more existential questioning, and posing of that question in mechanistic terms. Agreed, and that is my response if I need to get down on that level and play around with the concepts, but ultimately such questions (and any conjecture put together as an answer) tend to distract from the immediacy of this aliveness here and now.
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Sept 20, 2021 7:23:10 GMT -5
Well, in relative terms, it's not space nor renewable resource cycles that can or should constrain population levels. The downward pressures on population are actually all social, primarily a function of distribution. It does seem that the scale of humanity has gotten to the point where we are effecting the Earth, but there are far more species that have gone extinct - by many orders of magnitude - than are present today. The current world population would be completely unimaginable by the standards of even the 19th century much less the 18th or 17th, and, to my eye, the constant chicken-littling of the doom sayers (who constantly get proven wrong btw) is due to a poverty of imagination and a propensity to incorrectly project the present onto the future. That's my relative take. In absolute terms, any relation between this topic and the question of the source of souls for reincarnation is, ultimately, just more existential questioning, and posing of that question in mechanistic terms. Agreed, and that is my response if I need to get down on that level and play around with the concepts, but ultimately such questions (and any conjecture put together as an answer) tend to distract from the immediacy of this aliveness here and now. .. heh heh .. as I described, there was for me a sort of catalyst effect between that distraction and the process of pure looking. The pure futility of the motion of the distraction .. there can be a particular piquant flavor to it.
|
|
|
Post by Reefs on Sept 20, 2021 7:59:30 GMT -5
I've made this point to Roy before. Roy never actually met Ramana. Roy never even went to India to visit Ramana's place. So this is all just conjecture on Roy's part, based on n-th hand information that he has read somewhere. On the other hand though, roy has written about pursuing RM's advice to self-inquiry. I can definitely relate to that. Not contradicting you, just offering perspective on a different facet of WIBIGO with the guy. True. His approach is very practical and result oriented. And if he could leave out the appeal to authority and especially the doomium, his message would be a lot more powerful and convincing.
|
|
|
Post by Reefs on Sept 20, 2021 8:08:58 GMT -5
I've made this point to Roy before. Roy never actually met Ramana. Roy never even went to India to visit Ramana's place. So this is all just conjecture on Roy's part, based on n-th hand information that he has read somewhere. roy did as Ramana instructed and it has led to liberation from suffering. i owe EVERYTHING to Him. The change in my life experience/subjective experience (the guide by which the effectiveness of a teaching and it's associated practice is measured) is anything but conjecture Maybe i'm too logical, but the way i figure it: Ramana was fully Enlightened to the highest degree, this is without doubt (if you can't recognize this, then you simply are not ready for liberation). We also know exactly what He said, so it make more sense to follow His instruction than Christs or Buddhas. Xiao is falling into the Nondual trap, which is unfortunate for him. "You can't be otherwise" is not an incorrect statement, but Ramana added that the best response to the whole fate/no free will thing, was to: "Remain quiet." But if you question the validity of Ramanas instruction you won't follow through with the practice and will not experience the truth of His instruction Sure. Don't get me wrong. I respect what you did. In a sense, what you did is similar to what Niz did. He fully trusted his guru, did exactly as he was told (stay with the I AM) and he got the results. And he felt forever grateful to his guru. But you added a few things that dilute your message. And I find that unfortunate.
|
|
|
Post by ouroboros on Sept 20, 2021 8:17:07 GMT -5
I was just trying to make a point about reincarnation. The case is not so open and shut. I remember reading an article back in the late 80s in Scientific American about psychic phenomena. They stipulated that reincarnation was the hardest to disprove. It's not something I get a hard-on about so not interested in a debate. It's a curiosity. Also, interesting in the piece was Planck's quote regarding consciousnessand the material world. I concur. I personally feel that the population explosion of the past few-hundred years is an important point to consider. When bringing this up to a Buddhist once, they countered with the rapid loss of wildlife and other species on earth. It seems silly to think that conception will only occur successfully when a soul is lined up and ready to inhabit the human, or that the loss of animal life throughout the world means that those souls may now be in human bodies. Alternate theories of course involve different realms or other planets with intelligent life, but I stick with Occam's razor on this one. It may have been a useful teaching tool or "skillful means" in the past, perhaps it still is for some folk, but it doesn't seem likely to be true. Just to say that when contemplating the deepest/broadest picture it probably won't do to revert to trying to conceive of it from a rampant first mountain/consensus trance perspective. As the mind is want to do in fairness, (especially in relation to this particular subject I notice, even in myself). But when you do that, it's easy enough to gift wrap the obvious objections, but the same is not true in reverse. You can't really gift wrap the truth of the matter. At least certainly not elegantly. Not easily. The fact is that by going through it methodically, it could be revealed that many of the obvious objections are merely based on prevailing misconceptions, and conversely it's often through repeatedly penetrating those misapprehensions, whilst loosely keeping the subject in mind, that a sense of the truth of this matter begins to emerge. For instance, when it comes to putting a number on the amount of humans populating the planet at any given moment, it might be worth trying to consider how the idea of an individual human corresponds with that issue of where you might place the boundary between your hand and your arm. Point being that the truth of such matters must at least lie deeper than these surface level assumptions. Must at least be considered from a more holistic standpoint. I guess from some amalgamation of both standpoints really, if you happen to take the position that rebirth is the case. But something obviously more refined than merely the first mountain perspective. The truth is, only a decent third mountain perspective could even begin to properly grasp this subject, and I'm not seeing many knocking about if I'm being honest. My only real message here would be to advise folks to not entirely close themselves off to the possibility that there's something more to it. There's a sutta somewhere where the Buddha advises the same, it's about kamma and rebirth actually, which tie in together, and I considered it as a kinda forerunner to the Pascal's Wager argument.
|
|
|
Post by Reefs on Sept 20, 2021 8:17:42 GMT -5
Folks, contrary to popular belief the pathless path is generally a marathon not a sprint... Funny, I always thought that that was the popular belief.
|
|
|
Post by roydop on Sept 20, 2021 8:50:02 GMT -5
roy did as Ramana instructed and it has led to liberation from suffering. i owe EVERYTHING to Him. The change in my life experience/subjective experience (the guide by which the effectiveness of a teaching and it's associated practice is measured) is anything but conjecture Maybe i'm too logical, but the way i figure it: Ramana was fully Enlightened to the highest degree, this is without doubt (if you can't recognize this, then you simply are not ready for liberation). We also know exactly what He said, so it make more sense to follow His instruction than Christs or Buddhas. Xiao is falling into the Nondual trap, which is unfortunate for him. "You can't be otherwise" is not an incorrect statement, but Ramana added that the best response to the whole fate/no free will thing, was to: "Remain quiet." But if you question the validity of Ramanas instruction you won't follow through with the practice and will not experience the truth of His instruction Sure. Don't get me wrong. I respect what you did. In a sense, what you did is similar to what Niz did. He fully trusted his guru, did exactly as he was told (stay with the I AM) and he got the results. And he felt forever grateful to his guru. But you added a few things that dilute your message. And I find that unfortunate. What has been added (if you're referring to the TOE) dilutes the message only because no one understands it yet. As it becomes more apparent that it is accurate, it will actually reinforce my position. What is unfortunate is that no one here recognizes its importance.
|
|
|
Post by zazeniac on Sept 20, 2021 9:02:41 GMT -5
I was just trying to make a point about reincarnation. The case is not so open and shut. I remember reading an article back in the late 80s in Scientific American about psychic phenomena. They stipulated that reincarnation was the hardest to disprove. It's not something I get a hard-on about so not interested in a debate. It's a curiosity. Also, interesting in the piece was Planck's quote regarding consciousnessand the material world. I concur. I personally feel that the population explosion of the past few-hundred years is an important point to consider. When bringing this up to a Buddhist once, they countered with the rapid loss of wildlife and other species on earth. It seems silly to think that conception will only occur successfully when a soul is lined up and ready to inhabit the human, or that the loss of animal life throughout the world means that those souls may now be in human bodies. Alternate theories of course involve different realms or other planets with intelligent life, but I stick with Occam's razor on this one. It may have been a useful teaching tool or "skillful means" in the past, perhaps it still is for some folk, but it doesn't seem likely to be true. Yes. It is. But there are many ways to explain why the numbers don't jive. I think it's harder to explain some of the case studies I've read about. I used to be a skeptic when it came to ghosts until I had a few experiences. I don't know what they are or how it all works, but I saw what I saw and heard what I heard. Same thing with those pilots who reported ufo's. I have more important interests, but still think Hamlet's warning to Horatio is apropos.
|
|
Xiao
Full Member
Posts: 184
|
Post by Xiao on Sept 20, 2021 9:09:00 GMT -5
Sure. Don't get me wrong. I respect what you did. In a sense, what you did is similar to what Niz did. He fully trusted his guru, did exactly as he was told (stay with the I AM) and he got the results. And he felt forever grateful to his guru. But you added a few things that dilute your message. And I find that unfortunate. What has been added (if you're referring to the TOE) dilutes the message only because no one understands it yet. As it becomes more apparent that it is accurate, it will actually reinforce my position. What is unfortunate is that no one here recognizes its importance. I would say it dilutes the message because it may drive some away, and it that sense it makes the core part of your teaching less efficacious. Many will agree with you after reading the majority if not all of The One Step Path, but they may not agree regarding some of the other theories you've put forward. If those who, after following this path, are then able to understand and appreciate the TOE, then that's fantastic. But I feel that sticking to the core message of the one step path is "safer" in that very few people will disagree with it (thus meaning more people actually give TOSP a try) and it's also the only part of the path that actually matters (in the sense that only the actual "stepping" out of thought and into being will bring about the goal.)
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Sept 20, 2021 11:46:32 GMT -5
On the other hand though, roy has written about pursuing RM's advice to self-inquiry. I can definitely relate to that. Not contradicting you, just offering perspective on a different facet of WIBIGO with the guy. True. His approach is very practical and result oriented. And if he could leave out the appeal to authority and especially the doomium, his message would be a lot more powerful and convincing. The claim to authority is the most obvious indicator that Roy hasn't begun to grok what Ramana was pointing to or what Ramana realized. In the Zen tradition egocentric statements of authority or self-centered claims following any kind of kensho or other realization is considered a kind of spiritual sickness, and is ofter referred to as "the stink of enlightenment." I heard one teacher call it "the stink of pseudo-enlightenment" because he thought that such statements were good evidence that no real depth had yet been reached. The stories of Hakuin, Bankei, and other great sages come to mind because many serious seekers have had huge realizations, and concluded afterwards that they had become enlightened only to be told by far-more-deeply-enlightened individuals that they still had a long way to go. Anyone who claims to be enlightened is clearly not enlightened because they haven't yet discovered the cosmic joke (seen through the illusion of the SVP). Roy's on the right track with meditation and self enquiry, but unfortunately he's fallen into the spiritual trap of escapism and spiritualized ego. JMO.
|
|
|
Post by zazeniac on Sept 20, 2021 12:28:08 GMT -5
True. His approach is very practical and result oriented. And if he could leave out the appeal to authority and especially the doomium, his message would be a lot more powerful and convincing. The claim to authority is the most obvious indicator that Roy hasn't begun to grok what Ramana was pointing to or what Ramana realized. In the Zen tradition egocentric statements of authority or self-centered claims following any kind of kensho or other realization is considered a kind of spiritual sickness, and is ofter referred to as "the stink of enlightenment." I heard one teacher call it "the stink of pseudo-enlightenment" because he thought that such statements were good evidence that no real depth had yet been reached. The stories of Hakuin, Bankei, and other great sages come to mind because many serious seekers have had huge realizations, and concluded afterwards that they had become enlightened only to be told by far-more-deeply-enlightened individuals that they still had a long way to go. Anyone who claims to be enlightened is clearly not enlightened because they haven't yet discovered the cosmic joke (seen through the illusion of the SVP). Roy's on the right track with meditation and self enquiry, but unfortunately he's fallen into the spiritual trap of escapism and spiritualized ego. JMO. Not that I disagree with your view about the svp. I do and I don't. But you once told us that when you had one of your Realizations, you started to give away everything. What stopped you?
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Sept 20, 2021 14:19:04 GMT -5
On the other hand though, roy has written about pursuing RM's advice to self-inquiry. I can definitely relate to that. Not contradicting you, just offering perspective on a different facet of WIBIGO with the guy. True. His approach is very practical and result oriented. And if he could leave out the appeal to authority and especially the doomium, his message would be a lot more powerful and convincing. What's the spot on a one-ounce bar of doomium these days anyway??
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Sept 20, 2021 16:17:33 GMT -5
The claim to authority is the most obvious indicator that Roy hasn't begun to grok what Ramana was pointing to or what Ramana realized. In the Zen tradition egocentric statements of authority or self-centered claims following any kind of kensho or other realization is considered a kind of spiritual sickness, and is ofter referred to as "the stink of enlightenment." I heard one teacher call it "the stink of pseudo-enlightenment" because he thought that such statements were good evidence that no real depth had yet been reached. The stories of Hakuin, Bankei, and other great sages come to mind because many serious seekers have had huge realizations, and concluded afterwards that they had become enlightened only to be told by far-more-deeply-enlightened individuals that they still had a long way to go. Anyone who claims to be enlightened is clearly not enlightened because they haven't yet discovered the cosmic joke (seen through the illusion of the SVP). Roy's on the right track with meditation and self enquiry, but unfortunately he's fallen into the spiritual trap of escapism and spiritualized ego. JMO. Not that I disagree with your view about the svp. I do and I don't. But you once told us that when you had one of your Realizations, you started to give away everything. What stopped you? Well, family members thought that I had gone crazy (LOL), so I agreed to wait for a few days before giving away our home (you can't make this stuff up!). I called all of our employees together and told them that I wanted to make them all equal partners and co-owners in the business. I had decided to turn it into the equivalent of a coop, with all of us having equal responsibility. In effect, I was giving up personal ownership of the business and making us all independent contractors under the umbrella of the existing company. I felt no more important that the lowest paid employee in the company. Well, they all freaked out. They thought I was trying to screw them in some subtle way, so they all quit, and went to work for the guy who had been our main superintendent. haha. Sometimes you can't win even if you're doing your best to help people. I went from having ten employees to zero employees, and was forced to begin using independent subcontractors in place of employees. AAR, after several days, I fell out of the totally selfless state of mind I was in, and the old "me" returned. I had had a life-changing experience, but the "give everything away" mode of mind shifted back to something more like before the CC. Several months later I attended a Zen retreat for the first time, and told my story of what happened to a Zen teacher. He informed me that my attempt to give everything away had been a huge mistake, and that although my glimpse of the truth had been important, it was only a tiny fraction of what could be discovered if the thinking mind could be replaced with the "before-thinking mind." I didn't know what he was pointing to until later.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2021 18:07:10 GMT -5
What's the spot on a one-ounce bar of doomium these days anyway?? Duuno, personally I found the price was too steep so I liquidated all of my holdings Master be true, a shift of consciousness all that be required. Ty Farmer
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2021 18:19:36 GMT -5
True. His approach is very practical and result oriented. And if he could leave out the appeal to authority and especially the doomium, his message would be a lot more powerful and convincing. The claim to authority is the most obvious indicator that Roy hasn't begun to grok what Ramana was pointing to or what Ramana realized. In the Zen tradition egocentric statements of authority or self-centered claims following any kind of kensho or other realization is considered a kind of spiritual sickness, and is ofter referred to as "the stink of enlightenment." I heard one teacher call it "the stink of pseudo-enlightenment" because he thought that such statements were good evidence that no real depth had yet been reached. The stories of Hakuin, Bankei, and other great sages come to mind because many serious seekers have had huge realizations, and concluded afterwards that they had become enlightened only to be told by far-more-deeply-enlightened individuals that they still had a long way to go. Anyone who claims to be enlightened is clearly not enlightened because they haven't yet discovered the cosmic joke (seen through the illusion of the SVP). Roy's on the right track with meditation and self enquiry, but unfortunately he's fallen into the spiritual trap of escapism and spiritualized ego. JMO. Attachment is the ROOT of ownership. Freeing oneself from the cranium is a detachment one should never make a belief from as it lodged one back in Jail, but freedom from the known so very important.
|
|